Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa Forum

[5ky]

DO NOT GO TO UVA. I'm friends with many disgruntled 3Ls who are jobless and are living off of $13,000 "fellowships" UVA gives them in order to artificially boost their at graduation employment rate.

IF YOU GO TO UVA YOU WILL SEVERELY REDUCE YOUR CHANCES OF BIG LAW. CHICAGO IS A MUCH BETTER BET.

UVA is not the best choice for this particular scenario. That being said, of course UVA has unemployed 3Ls -- they did their OGI in the bloodbath of 2009. Almost every school has them.

[paulinaporizkova]

DO NOT GO TO UVA. I'm friends with many disgruntled 3Ls who are jobless and are living off of $13,000 "fellowships" UVA gives them in order to artificially boost their at graduation employment rate.

IF YOU GO TO UVA YOU WILL SEVERELY REDUCE YOUR CHANCES OF BIG LAW. CHICAGO IS A MUCH BETTER BET.

have fun at duke, brah

[cornellbeez]

Lulz, my friend gave me the composition of Wilkie's incoming class for the New York office:

one cornell,
one u chicago,
4 nyu,
4 harvard,
and 5 columbia.

Yep, that's one (1) spot that's not from the T6. While it should be better for the class of 2014, this kind of stuff is stark evidence in favor of the T6 school.

Chicago does have superior biglaw placement compared to the other schools in the poll, but tbf, Chicago is not on par with NYU/Columbia for NYC. If we're just using anecdotes, half of another NYC firm's class is comprised of CLS/NYU while it doesn't have a single Chicago person.

[ahduth]

Lulz, my friend gave me the composition of Wilkie's incoming class for the New York office:

one cornell,
one u chicago,
4 nyu,
4 harvard,
and 5 columbia.

Yep, that's one (1) spot that's not from the T6. While it should be better for the class of 2014, this kind of stuff is stark evidence in favor of the T6 school.

Chicago does have superior biglaw placement compared to the other schools in the poll, but tbf, Chicago is not on par with NYU/Columbia for NYC. If we're just using anecdotes, half of another NYC firm's class is comprised of CLS/NYU while it doesn't have a single Chicago person.

Sure it is, these firms love to get Chicago people. They're under-represented vis-a-vis CLS/NYU due to class size and self-selection. That does not mean the firms don't like to see them - they get obviously get plenty of CLS/NYU grads.

[BruceWayne]

This whole "top 6" thing is seriously overplayed. First, HYS really really shouldn't be grouped with any of the other schools. They are leaps and bounds above the other schools for every sort of legal job except NYC biglaw-where they are simply above Columbia, Chicago, and NYU, as opposed to leaps and bounds. Chicago and Columbia are stronger than the rest of the top 14, but that's mainly in terms of their NYC firm placement. NYU isn't stronger than the rest of the top 14 at all outside of NYC firms. If the OP is satisfied with working NYC biglaw, since it's the easiest biglaw to get, and since going to Chicago isn't going to give OP a greatly improved shot at NYC biglaw, it makes more sense for him to be focused on limiting debt. Especially since NYC biglaw is such a bad idea financially for someone with a lot of debt (huge loan payments + huge COL+ huge tax rate+ NYC up our out policy=hard time paying off debt and huge ripoff) it makes more sense to go with the 20k a year scholarship at Northwestern. Having saved 60,000 dollars will be very helpful when making the $3000 a month loan payments, $2000 a month rent, and getting hit with the 40 percent tax rate.

[paulinaporizkova]

This whole "top 6" thing is seriously overplayed. First, HYS really really shouldn't be grouped with any of the other schools. They are leaps and bounds above the other schools for every sort of legal job except NYC biglaw-where they are simply above Columbia, Chicago, and NYU, as opposed to leaps and bounds. Chicago and Columbia are stronger than the rest of the top 14, but that's mainly in terms of their NYC firm placement. NYU isn't stronger than the rest of the top 14 at all outside of NYC firms. If the OP is satisfied with working NYC biglaw, since it's the easiest biglaw to get, and since going to Chicago isn't going to give OP a greatly improved shot at biglaw it makes more sense for him to be focused on limiting debt. Especially since NYC biglaw is such a bad idea financially for someone with a lot of debt (huge loan payments + huge COL+ huge tax rate+ NYC up our out policy=hard time paying off debt and huge ripoff) it makes much more sense to go with the 20k a year scholarship at Northwestern. Having saved 60,000 dollars will be very helpful when making the $3000 a month loan payments, $2000 a month rent, and getting hit with the 40 percent tax rate.

hmm, good points i bet a lot of people don't think about

[keg411]

Lulz, my friend gave me the composition of Wilkie's incoming class for the New York office:

one cornell,
one u chicago,
4 nyu,
4 harvard,
and 5 columbia.

Yep, that's one (1) spot that's not from the T6. While it should be better for the class of 2014, this kind of stuff is stark evidence in favor of the T6 school.

I know someone starting at Wilkie this fall who is very much NOT from a T6 school. But maybe you're talking about the SA class.

[ahduth]

This whole "top 6" thing is seriously overplayed. First, HYS really really shouldn't be grouped with any of the other schools. They are leaps and bounds above the other schools for every sort of legal job except NYC biglaw-where they are simply above Columbia, Chicago, and NYU, as opposed to leaps and bounds. Chicago and Columbia are stronger than the rest of the top 14, but that's mainly in terms of their NYC firm placement. NYU isn't stronger than the rest of the top 14 at all outside of NYC firms. If the OP is satisfied with working NYC biglaw, since it's the easiest biglaw to get, and since going to Chicago isn't going to give OP a greatly improved shot at biglaw it makes more sense for him to be focused on limiting debt. Especially since NYC biglaw is such a bad idea financially for someone with a lot of debt (huge loan payments + huge COL+ huge tax rate+ NYC up our out policy=hard time paying off debt and huge ripoff) it makes much more sense to go with the 20k a year scholarship at Northwestern. Having saved 60,000 dollars will be very helpful when making the $3000 a month loan payments, $2000 a month rent, and getting hit with the 40 percent tax rate.

hmm, good points i bet a lot of people don't think about

Yeah, there was some RC fail here. From the OP:

Looking to go Biglaw after graduating for at least a few years, and NOT IN MIDWEST.

I think that's why Northwestern was largely ignored, and Michigan given precedence. Another thing is the 5k a year differential between them is heavily reduced by the COL differential between downtown Chicago and Ann Arbor.

BW also tends to throw around "facts" about CCN placement that don't seem to hold up under scrutiny. He's telling us that UofC won't garner any closer attention than Michigan or Northwestern outside NYC. That's fairly hard to objectively measure, given UofC's small class size, so TLS should give him the benefit of the doubt.

Whether or not the OP should is a separate question. The COL differential between Hyde Park and AA isn't actually as extreme as downtown versus AA. And 50-55k is a lot of money, but given how small big law class sizes have become, the OP needs to look at a) how badly they want big law and b) their level of conviction that T6 is a "myth" and opportunities are equal across the entire T14. Coincidentally, this is where the poll came down - both Michigan and Chicago represent great opportunities, it's up to the OP to decide which side they want to err on.

[ahduth]

Lulz, my friend gave me the composition of Wilkie's incoming class for the New York office:

one cornell,
one u chicago,
4 nyu,
4 harvard,
and 5 columbia.

Yep, that's one (1) spot that's not from the T6. While it should be better for the class of 2014, this kind of stuff is stark evidence in favor of the T6 school.

I know someone starting at Wilkie this fall who is very much NOT from a T6 school. But maybe you're talking about the SA class.

No, this was new JAs in the New York office. I'll double-check I guess; she only brought it up, because the schools of some recent hires who she liked a lot weren't even close to making that list. Well that, and we've been having an ongoing conversation about law school apps for well over six months now. Even though I didn't start this particular conversation, I'm not sure why she continues to put up with me actually...

[keg411]

Lulz, my friend gave me the composition of Wilkie's incoming class for the New York office:

one cornell,
one u chicago,
4 nyu,
4 harvard,
and 5 columbia.

Yep, that's one (1) spot that's not from the T6. While it should be better for the class of 2014, this kind of stuff is stark evidence in favor of the T6 school.

I know someone starting at Wilkie this fall who is very much NOT from a T6 school. But maybe you're talking about the SA class.

No, this was new JAs in the New York office. I'll double-check I guess; she only brought it up, because the schools of some recent hires who she liked a lot weren't even close to making that list. Well that, and we've been having an ongoing conversation about law school apps for well over six months now. Even though I didn't start this particular conversation, I'm not sure why she continues to put up with me actually...

Well, she definitely made an error on this one, so it's weird that she would just bring it up on her own.

[CanadianWolf]

According to OP's profile, he/she has also been accepted to Cornell & is waitlisted at NYU & Columbia.

Among Northwestern, Chicago & Michigan, OP needs to visit each school. Being miserable at Chicago or Michigan may contribute to a poor first year performance which may harm chances for East Coast biglaw. OP's posts show a preference for city living that may rule out Michigan while the Hyde Park area may not be the "city living" envisioned by OP.

There is no clear-cut answer among the listed options based on info. shared by the OP other than to try his/her best persuasive techniques on NYU & Columbia admissions offices.

[09042014]

Michigan isn't better than Northwestern for big law. It's probably slightly worse. It's silly to ignore that option.

[CanadianWolf]

2010 law graduates placement into "biglaw" NLJ 250 largest law firms:

Northwestern was 8th best at over 44% while Michigan was 10th. The prior year--2009--Northwestern was the best among all ABA accredited law schools with about 58% placing in the NLJ's 250 largest US law firms.

[09042014]

2010 law graduates placement into "biglaw" NLJ 250 largest law firms:

Northwestern was 8th best at over 44% while Michigan was 10th. The prior year--2009--Northwestern was the best among all ABA accredited law schools with about 58% placing in the NLJ's 250 largest US law firms.

The rumors from OCI 2009, had NU significantly better than Michigan. But that might be a fluke. I heard Michigans Career services gave horrible advice, like to bid on Chicago with poor grades and no connections.

The schools are about as close to peer as you can get. OP should decide which one he likes better.

[BruceWayne]

This whole "top 6" thing is seriously overplayed. First, HYS really really shouldn't be grouped with any of the other schools. They are leaps and bounds above the other schools for every sort of legal job except NYC biglaw-where they are simply above Columbia, Chicago, and NYU, as opposed to leaps and bounds. Chicago and Columbia are stronger than the rest of the top 14, but that's mainly in terms of their NYC firm placement. NYU isn't stronger than the rest of the top 14 at all outside of NYC firms. If the OP is satisfied with working NYC biglaw, since it's the easiest biglaw to get, and since going to Chicago isn't going to give OP a greatly improved shot at biglaw it makes more sense for him to be focused on limiting debt. Especially since NYC biglaw is such a bad idea financially for someone with a lot of debt (huge loan payments + huge COL+ huge tax rate+ NYC up our out policy=hard time paying off debt and huge ripoff) it makes much more sense to go with the 20k a year scholarship at Northwestern. Having saved 60,000 dollars will be very helpful when making the $3000 a month loan payments, $2000 a month rent, and getting hit with the 40 percent tax rate.

hmm, good points i bet a lot of people don't think about

Yeah, there was some RC fail here. From the OP:

Looking to go Biglaw after graduating for at least a few years, and NOT IN MIDWEST.

I think that's why Northwestern was largely ignored, and Michigan given precedence. Another thing is the 5k a year differential between them is heavily reduced by the COL differential between downtown Chicago and Ann Arbor.

BW also tends to throw around "facts" about CCN placement that don't seem to hold up under scrutiny. He's telling us that UofC won't garner any closer attention than Michigan or Northwestern outside NYC. That's fairly hard to objectively measure, given UofC's small class size, so TLS should give him the benefit of the doubt.

Whether or not the OP should is a separate question. The COL differential between Hyde Park and AA isn't actually as extreme as downtown versus AA. And 50-55k is a lot of money, but given how small big law class sizes have become, the OP needs to look at a) how badly they want big law and b) their level of conviction that T6 is a "myth" and opportunities are equal across the entire T14. Coincidentally, this is where the poll came down - both Michigan and Chicago represent great opportunities, it's up to the OP to decide which side they want to err on.

You're correct there was a big RC fail--from you. My whole point is based on the idea that he wants to work in NYC. Northwestern will be fine for getting him/her a job in NYC because NYC really doesn't care about ties and it's the easiest market to break into. The boost that the OP would get for working NYC biglaw from UChicago as opposed to NU is negligible. Too negligible to give up a good scholarship. That's the big irony of NYC biglaw. Because it's the easiest to get it's a career option that isn't greatly improved by small rankings jumps like other types of jobs. Even more ironic is that it would actually make more sense not to take the NU scholarship and go to UChicago if the OP actually did want to work in the midwest because the difference in placement would be greater than it would be for working in NYC.

I think that's why Northwestern was largely ignored, and Michigan given precedence. Another thing is the 5k a year differential between them is heavily reduced by the COL differential between downtown Chicago and Ann Arbor.


You made another RC fail (and started a straw argument) with your claim that I said that Chicago won't garner anymore attention outside of NYC than NU or Michigan. First, that's obviously incorrect for the city of Chicago, and second I said that Columbia and Chicago were in fact stronger than NU and Michigan, but that this mainly applied to NYC (and obviously) Chicago law firm placement. My direct quote was "Chicago and Columbia are stronger than the rest of the top 14, but that's mainly in terms of their NYC firm placement. " I did say that NYU isn't stronger in anything but NYC biglaw, and that's true and is widely known.