Top Law Schools

Hey TLSers,

Hoping I can get some feedback here. Deposits are coming up next week and I'm STILL not sure where I should go. My thought process is as follows:

(1) I'd prefer biglaw (150k+) in NY, but could do midlaw (100-150k).

(2) Would love to leave NY for a few years (grew up nearby, undergrad, etc.)...

(3) BUT not at the cost of ruining my chances at a "good" job.

That being said, which school is the best choice? I loved Vandy and it's COA is low, but just how well does it play in the NY market? Does it keep up with BC/BU/Fordham?

P.S. - I'm leaning away from Fordham, but thought I would list anyway.

Vandee

dpk711 wrote:Vandee

Can you clarify why?

Vandy has best overall employment numbers. The additional money you're getting from the Boston schools just isn't enough more, IMO.

Clearly Vandy. They place everywhere, and I'm not convinced BU/BC travel well to NYC (obv better than to CA or something.) Employment #s are also 10-15% higher for BigLaw at Vandy.

New York is consistently one of the top 3 destinations for Vandy Grads. More head to New York than, say, Atlanta. More N.Y. NALP directory firms come to Vandy's OCI than BC or BU. And unlike at Fordham, at Vandy you won't be competing with all your classmates for the same jobs.

I'd go to Vandy for the reasons Rawlsian said above. QOL is Nashville is a great bonus.

An argument could be made of BC and BU I suppose. People might cite the latest NLJ250 stats. That's all fine and good, but Vanderbilt has been more consistent over time, no doubt.

No way you should go to Fordham here at all.

Vanderbilt is the clear choice.

Van to the Dee

BU.

COA would be about 105K, while Vandy would leave you with about 150K worth debt.

Both give you a decent chance at biglaw and BU is 45K cheaper.

I say Vandy, but you should know you probably won't get a job in biglaw or midlaw.

spacepenguin wrote:BU.

COA would be about 105K, while Vandy would leave you with about 150K worth debt.

Both give you a decent chance at biglaw and BU is 45K cheaper.

Vanderbilt COA: 201,000 - 60,000 = 141,000
BU: 186,000 - 75,000 = 111,000

So it's like $30k. Wouldn't be enough to sway me.

Hannibal wrote:I say Vandy, but you should know you probably won't get a job in biglaw or midlaw.

For c/o 2010, about 40% had NLJ250 + AIII. The full employment list is released and I spotted a decent number of non-NLJ solid firms there. So I'd say like 50%+. Also consider that apart from that a solid amount of people got bigfed or good PI.

rad law wrote:

Hannibal wrote:I say Vandy, but you should know you probably won't get a job in biglaw or midlaw.

For c/o 2010, about 40% had NLJ250 + AIII. The full employment list is released and I spotted a decent number of non-NLJ solid firms there. So I'd say like 50%+. Also consider that apart from that a solid amount of people got bigfed or good PI.

Yeah, I'd agree with that estimate. Still definitely a sizable chance OP won't get the employment he wants though.

For 30K more, Vandy is still TCR. Placement will be better everywhere except New England

Hannibal wrote:I say Vandy, but you should know you probably won't get a job in biglaw or midlaw.

Why do you say that? I realize vandy is not t14 but is it really such a huge dropoff that I couldnt even midlaw (let alone big law) if I do reasonably well?

rad law wrote:

spacepenguin wrote:BU.

COA would be about 105K, while Vandy would leave you with about 150K worth debt.

Both give you a decent chance at biglaw and BU is 45K cheaper.

Vanderbilt COA: 201,000 - 60,000 = 141,000
BU: 186,000 - 75,000 = 111,000

So it's like $30k. Wouldn't be enough to sway me.

Out of curiosity, do ppl on TLS strongly prefer BU to BC (thats my impression), and if so us it just the ranking diff? Seems like job placement is comparable and other than aesthetics I haven't seen much to differentiate the schools.academically or career wise...then again I may well be overlooking something. Thoughts?

fingersxd wrote:Out of curiosity, do ppl on TLS strongly prefer BU to BC (thats my impression), and if so us it just the ranking diff? Seems like job placement is comparable and other than aesthetics I haven't seen much to differentiate the schools.academically or career wise...then again I may well be overlooking something. Thoughts?

The difference in placement between BU and BC is negligible. It comes down to cost or, if cost is equal, QOL. BU is more urban, while BC has a more traditional campus. And they apparently have very different vibes. Have you seen this BU vs. BC thread? You might find it helpful.

fingersxd wrote:

Hannibal wrote:I say Vandy, but you should know you probably won't get a job in biglaw or midlaw.

Why do you say that? I realize vandy is not t14 but is it really such a huge dropoff that I couldnt even midlaw (let alone big law) if I do reasonably well?

Because midlaw pretty much doesn't exist. There are firms that are usually referred to as midlaw are usually either non-NLJ, regional biglaw, or boutique firms that are biglaw in every sense but numbers.

Hannibal wrote:

fingersxd wrote:

Hannibal wrote:I say Vandy, but you should know you probably won't get a job in biglaw or midlaw.

Why do you say that? I realize vandy is not t14 but is it really such a huge dropoff that I couldnt even midlaw (let alone big law) if I do reasonably well?

Because midlaw pretty much doesn't exist. There are firms that are usually referred to as midlaw are usually either non-NLJ, regional biglaw, or boutique firms that are biglaw in every sense but numbers.

Midlaw is a myth.

dpk711 wrote:

Hannibal wrote:

fingersxd wrote:

Hannibal wrote:I say Vandy, but you should know you probably won't get a job in biglaw or midlaw.

Why do you say that? I realize vandy is not t14 but is it really such a huge dropoff that I couldnt even midlaw (let alone big law) if I do reasonably well?

Because midlaw pretty much doesn't exist. There are firms that are usually referred to as midlaw are usually either non-NLJ, regional biglaw, or boutique firms that are biglaw in every sense but numbers.

Midlaw is a myth.

Depends what market you're looking at, but generally yes.

Because midlaw pretty much doesn't exist. There are firms that are usually referred to as midlaw are usually either non-NLJ, regional biglaw, or boutique firms that are biglaw in every sense but numbers.[/quote]
Midlaw is a myth.[/quote]

Ok, so I understand the term "midlaw" might not apply, but the way I look at it is big law = 150k+ and "midlaw" = 100-150k? Considering the distinction in that way, would you still say that the likelihood of getting a job that pays 100k+ (or even say 80/90k+) is no more than 50% at best?

fingersxd wrote:Because midlaw pretty much doesn't exist. There are firms that are usually referred to as midlaw are usually either non-NLJ, regional biglaw, or boutique firms that are biglaw in every sense but numbers.

Midlaw is a myth.[/quote]

Ok, so I understand the term "midlaw" might not apply, but the way I look at it is big law = 150k+ and "midlaw" = 100-150k? Considering the distinction in that way, would you still say that the likelihood of getting a job that pays 100k+ (or even say 80/90k+) is no more than 50% at best?[/quote]

This is the deal with pretty much EVERY law school, not just Vanderbilt or BC/BU. Basically, your best chances for getting a job are best in the following places: where you are from, where you went to undergrad, where you spent a significant portion of your life, and where you went to law school. These are where you have ties. Generally, it is very hard to get a job in a region without ties (except NYC and DC). If you have ties to a smaller market that has firms that pays $90k, then yes, you can get a "midlaw" job. However, keep in mind that in many places these firms are really "local biglaw" that are pretty prestigious locally and still hard to snag. (Ex. Tampa firms pay $90kish. This is the top pay bracket for most of the prestigious firms. ATL is like $125k-145k. Birmingham is $90kish. This is all local biglaw, the top players in town).

Hope that helps.

This is the deal with pretty much EVERY law school, not just Vanderbilt or BC/BU. Basically, your best chances for getting a job are best in the following places: where you are from, where you went to undergrad, where you spent a significant portion of your life, and where you went to law school. These are where you have ties. Generally, it is very hard to get a job in a region without ties (except NYC and DC). If you have ties to a smaller market that has firms that pays $90k, then yes, you can get a "midlaw" job. However, keep in mind that in many places these firms are really "local biglaw" that are pretty prestigious locally and still hard to snag. (Ex. Tampa firms pay $90kish. This is the top pay bracket for most of the prestigious firms. ATL is like $125k-145k. Birmingham is $90kish. This is all local biglaw, the top players in town).

Hope that helps.[/quote]

It does. Thanks.

rad law wrote:

spacepenguin wrote:BU.

COA would be about 105K, while Vandy would leave you with about 150K worth debt.

Both give you a decent chance at biglaw and BU is 45K cheaper.

Vanderbilt COA: 201,000 - 60,000 = 141,000
BU: 186,000 - 75,000 = 111,000

So it's like $30k. Wouldn't be enough to sway me.

I've actually taken a look at the numbers and strongly feel that both BU (12k) and BC (11.3k) are either (i) undervaluing the actual costs of room & board living in Boston, or (ii) expect you to live in a dump and/or with one or more roommates. Maybe it's just me but I haven't found a decent place in or around Boston for $1,000/month.

In contrast, Vandy predicts ~13k for room and board -- my thoughts are that this: (i) is enough to get a much nicer place in Nashville than Boston, or (ii) allows those students planning to live on the cheap, to spend less than the allotment.

Is my math way off or have others noticed this same point?