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Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:23 pm
by quixotical
Hi all,
I got really helpful feedback re: Minnesota at 22k/year, so I thought I'd throw this question out as well.
Notre Dame offered me 20k/year with only an "academic good standing" stip. I applied because I was attracted to their year-long program in London, but decided against ND since I'm a devout atheist and I'd read on TLS and other places that being atheist and aggressively liberal on hot button issues like abortion and gay-marriage will likely make one very uncomfortable over the course of 3 years. However, I've also read that ND has great employment placement and a very strong alumni network. Keeping in mind my goals of PI/human rights, and desire to live in the midwest/northwest but not necessarily in a "huge" city like Chicago/NY, would I be wise to consider ND, ranked 23, at 20k/year scholly over Minnesota, ranked 20, with a 22k/year scholly? If I can negotiate with ND to at least match Minnesota's 22k, would it change your answer?
Thanks in advance for any input.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:31 pm
by thexfactor
id take ND. Better placement in biglaw. 5k difference isnt that big.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:33 pm
by fetalposition
not sure if you can be a "devout" atheist. Also, law schools are usually much more liberal than their corresponding undergraduate institutions. Just don't get in people's faces about your beliefs and they won't get in yours; as for classes/professors, most of them lean liberal even at ND.
For placement in the midwest and PI, ND hands down.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:34 pm
by Stanford4Me
I don't imagine an atheist at a religious school like ND would have any more difficult of a time than a Christian (like me) at a very liberal school like NYU. Also, I personally don't know why people who are seeking to be challenged intellectually would avoid a place (that is an overall better school), because its ideology doesn't mesh with theirs.
Edit: Just don't be the douchebag who feels the need to say "THERE IS NO GOD, LOLZ" every time you hear Christians (or Buddhists, or Muslims, etc.) talking about Him.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:36 pm
by quixotical
thexfactor wrote:id take ND. Better placement in biglaw. 5k difference isnt that big.
Thanks for the response!
You'd still advise this even if I'm really not interested in biglaw? (Not saying I wouldn't consider it if I got a truly phenomenal job offer, but keeping in mind 90% of 0Ls think they'll be in the top 10% of their class, I don't want to choose a school that has an atmosphere I might find oppressive/students and professors whose opinions I find offensive, since biglaw isn't a guarantee or a main interest of mine).
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:37 pm
by quixotical
fetalposition wrote:not sure if you can be a "devout" atheist. Also, law schools are usually much more liberal than their corresponding undergraduate institutions. Just don't get in people's faces about your beliefs and they won't get in yours; as for classes/professors, most of them lean liberal even at ND.
For placement in the midwest and PI, ND hands down.
The "devout atheist" description was tongue-in-cheek.
Thanks for the advice! If you wouldn't mind elaborating on why I'd love to hear more.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:39 pm
by quixotical
Stanford4Me wrote:I don't imagine an atheist at a religious school like ND would have any more difficult of a time than a Christian (like me) at a very liberal school like NYU. Also, I personally don't know why people who are seeking to be challenged intellectually would avoid a place (that is an overall better school), because its ideology doesn't mesh with theirs.
Edit: Just don't be the douchebag who feels the need to say "THERE IS NO GOD, LOLZ" every time you hear Christians (or Buddhists, or Muslims, etc.) talking about Him.
Why do you think ND is an overall better school than Minnesota? That's what I'm trying to figure out.
Also, I know that attending BYU, for example, would be ridiculous for someone like me even if it was the best school they got into. I think being an atheist in a self-selected Christian environment is fundamentally different than a Christian in a self-selected liberal environment. Liberalism implies tolerance. Christianity, by definition, excludes it. (Not looking for a religious debate, just saying there is a big difference.)
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:46 pm
by fetalposition
quixotical wrote:fetalposition wrote:not sure if you can be a "devout" atheist. Also, law schools are usually much more liberal than their corresponding undergraduate institutions. Just don't get in people's faces about your beliefs and they won't get in yours; as for classes/professors, most of them lean liberal even at ND.
For placement in the midwest and PI, ND hands down.
The "devout atheist" description was tongue-in-cheek.
Thanks for the advice! If you wouldn't mind elaborating on why I'd love to hear more.
Don't go by the rankings, especially when the difference is 23 vs. 20. If you definitely want to be in Minnesota, then go with UM. Anywhere else in the Midwest, ND without a doubt. Its alumni base/reputation are much more national than UM. Also, for non-Big Law gigs (like PI), lay prestige might also be somewhat of a factor (in which case ND > UM).
In summary, ND is the better career move--especially when the money is equal (although, I think UM might still be cheaper due to CoA and in-state tuition). If you're worried about fitting in as an atheist, I wouldn't worry about it too much. I'm very well-acquainted with ND and I know tons of super-Catholics but also quite a few atheists/apathetics. If you want more info/specifics, PM me.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:47 pm
by fetalposition
quixotical wrote:Stanford4Me wrote:I don't imagine an atheist at a religious school like ND would have any more difficult of a time than a Christian (like me) at a very liberal school like NYU. Also, I personally don't know why people who are seeking to be challenged intellectually would avoid a place (that is an overall better school), because its ideology doesn't mesh with theirs.
Edit: Just don't be the douchebag who feels the need to say "THERE IS NO GOD, LOLZ" every time you hear Christians (or Buddhists, or Muslims, etc.) talking about Him.
Why do you think ND is an overall better school than Minnesota? That's what I'm trying to figure out.
Also, I know that attending BYU, for example, would be ridiculous for someone like me even if it was the best school they got into. I think being an atheist in a self-selected Christian environment is fundamentally different than a Christian in a self-selected liberal environment. Liberalism implies tolerance. Christianity, by definition, excludes it. (Not looking for a religious debate, just saying there is a big difference.)
ND is a far cry from BYU in every way imaginable, despite what you may have heard.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:51 pm
by Bildungsroman
quixotical wrote: Liberalism implies tolerance. Christianity, by definition, excludes it.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:54 pm
by beachbum
Bildungsroman wrote:quixotical wrote: Liberalism implies tolerance. Christianity, by definition, excludes it.
hahahahahaha
I was waiting for someone to catch that. (IBshitstorm?)
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:55 pm
by Bildungsroman
As a liberal, I value tolerance so much that I am unable to tolerate being around religious people, whose tolerance does not match mine.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:57 pm
by quixotical
Bildungsroman wrote:As a liberal, I value tolerance so much that I am unable to tolerate being around religious people, whose tolerance does not match mine.
I understand the joke you're making, but liberalism being intolerant of intolerance, though it sounds like a paradox, is not. Christianity, and most religions, by definition are exclusionary, even though some practitioners of that religion may be more tolerant than their religious doctrines would suggest.
Again, I'm not looking for a religious debate-- I'd just refer you to Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens-- but as you can see I have pretty strong beliefs about my non-belief.
I'm just trying to figure out if ND should be a consideration given that.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:58 pm
by Stanford4Me
beachbum wrote:Bildungsroman wrote:quixotical wrote: Liberalism implies tolerance. Christianity, by definition, excludes it.
hahahahahaha
I was waiting for someone to catch that. (IBshitstorm?)
Yeah, I didn't want to address it.
OP, maybe you should go to Minnesota, because you seem to have a certain perception of Christians that will hinder your ability to flourish in an environment like ND, even though it is nothing like BYU. This isn't meant to be a slight to you in any way.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:59 pm
by Bildungsroman
quixotical wrote:Bildungsroman wrote:As a liberal, I value tolerance so much that I am unable to tolerate being around religious people, whose tolerance does not match mine.
I understand the joke you're making, but liberalism being intolerant of intolerance, though it sounds like a paradox, is not. Christianity, and most religions, by definition are exclusionary, even though some practitioners of that religion may be more tolerant than their religious doctrines would suggest.
Again, I'm not looking for a religious debate-- I'd just refer you to Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens-- but as you can see I have pretty strong beliefs about my non-belief.
I'm just trying to figure out if ND should be a consideration given that.
Alright, I'm calling flame on this whole thing. This person encompasses too many stereotypes about atheists to be a real and self-aware person.
Edit: If you are real, go to Minnesota to avoid subjecting your peers to your persecution complex.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:00 pm
by Knock
Minnesota.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:02 pm
by quixotical
Stanford4Me wrote:beachbum wrote:Bildungsroman wrote:quixotical wrote: Liberalism implies tolerance. Christianity, by definition, excludes it.
hahahahahaha
I was waiting for someone to catch that. (IBshitstorm?)
Yeah, I didn't want to address it.
OP, maybe you should go to Minnesota, because you seem to have a certain perception of Christians that will hinder your ability to flourish in an environment like ND, even though it is nothing like BYU. This isn't meant to be a slight to you in any way.
Thanks for your response, I appreciate it. I was raised Catholic, went through communion and catechism etc., and my family is Catholic, so it's more that my accurate perception of Christians may hinder my ability to flourish at ND. (Being pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, for example, are very important issues to me, especially since I'm so interested in human rights. Unfortunately, most religions, and perhaps especially Catholicism, aren't compatible with these basic human rights issues.)
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:04 pm
by Knock
quixotical wrote:Stanford4Me wrote:beachbum wrote:Bildungsroman wrote:
hahahahahaha
I was waiting for someone to catch that. (IBshitstorm?)
Yeah, I didn't want to address it.
OP, maybe you should go to Minnesota, because you seem to have a certain perception of Christians that will hinder your ability to flourish in an environment like ND, even though it is nothing like BYU. This isn't meant to be a slight to you in any way.
Thanks for your response, I appreciate it. I was raised Catholic, went through communion and catechism etc., and my family is Catholic, so it's more that my accurate perception of Christians may hinder my ability to flourish at ND. (Being pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, for example, are very important issues to me, especially since I'm so interested in human rights. Unfortunately, most religions, and perhaps especially Catholicism, aren't compatible with these basic human rights issues.)
We get it. Go to Minnesota, /thread.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:07 pm
by quixotical
Knock wrote:quixotical wrote:We get it. Go to Minnesota, /thread.
Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly... You're saying that ND's atmosphere is so overwhelmingly religious that the benefits of an ND JD (name recognition, better big law, etc.) don't outweigh those negatives?
If good employment placement is contingent on my being Catholic, then Minnesota probably is the better choice.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:09 pm
by Knock
quixotical wrote:Knock wrote:quixotical wrote:We get it. Go to Minnesota, /thread.
Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly... You're saying that ND's atmosphere is so overwhelmingly religious that the benefits of an ND JD (name recognition, better big law, etc.) don't outweigh those negatives?
If good employment placement is contingent on my being Catholic, then Minnesota probably is the better choice.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:13 pm
by quixotical
Knock wrote:quixotical wrote:Knock wrote:quixotical wrote:We get it. Go to Minnesota, /thread.
Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly... You're saying that ND's atmosphere is so overwhelmingly religious that the benefits of an ND JD (name recognition, better big law, etc.) don't outweigh those negatives?
If good employment placement is contingent on my being Catholic, then Minnesota probably is the better choice.
Yes, I know... I will burn in the fiery pits of hell for being an atheist. I get it.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:15 pm
by Stanford4Me
quixotical wrote:
Yes, I know... I will burn in the fiery pits of hell for being an atheist. I get it.
I think he's calling you a flame.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:19 pm
by Bildungsroman
quixotical wrote:Knock wrote:quixotical wrote:We get it. Go to Minnesota, /thread.
Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly... You're saying that ND's atmosphere is so overwhelmingly religious that the benefits of an ND JD (name recognition, better big law, etc.) don't outweigh those negatives?
If good employment placement is contingent on my being Catholic, then Minnesota probably is the better choice.
We're saying that you are clearly so socially incompetent and unable to get along with religious people that your persecution complex would make you unbearable at ND, and we don't want to help inflict you upon them.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:21 pm
by quixotical
Stanford4Me wrote:quixotical wrote:
Yes, I know... I will burn in the fiery pits of hell for being an atheist. I get it.
I think he's calling you a flame.
I know. I was making a joke.
Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:21 pm
by Stanford4Me
quixotical wrote:Stanford4Me wrote:quixotical wrote:
Yes, I know... I will burn in the fiery pits of hell for being an atheist. I get it.
I think he's calling you a flame.
I know. I was making a joke.
Oh, haha. Went over my head.