Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$? Forum

[quixotical]

We get it. Go to Minnesota, /thread.

Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly... You're saying that ND's atmosphere is so overwhelmingly religious that the benefits of an ND JD (name recognition, better big law, etc.) don't outweigh those negatives?

If good employment placement is contingent on my being Catholic, then Minnesota probably is the better choice.

We're saying that you are clearly so socially incompetent and unable to get along with religious people that your persecution complex would make you unbearable at ND, and we don't want to help inflict you upon them.

Where on earth did you get that I'm unable to get along with religious people? I said that Catholics are against gay-marriage and pro-choice, and I view those stances as being human rights violations. How exactly does that make me socially incompetent or give me a persecution complex?

It's a fact that gay people and women are marginalized, and that marginalization often occurs with the justification of religion. It's not a complex, just a fact of society.

[Bildungsroman]

Where on earth did you get that I'm unable to get along with religious people? I said that Catholics are against gay-marriage and pro-choice, and I view those stances as being human rights violations. How exactly does that make me socially incompetent or give me a persecution complex?

It's a fact that gay people and women are marginalized, and that marginalization often occurs with the justification of religion. It's not a complex, just a fact of society.

You're gonna have to try harder than that, flame-warrior.

[quixotical]

Where on earth did you get that I'm unable to get along with religious people? I said that Catholics are against gay-marriage and pro-choice, and I view those stances as being human rights violations. How exactly does that make me socially incompetent or give me a persecution complex?

It's a fact that gay people and women are marginalized, and that marginalization often occurs with the justification of religion. It's not a complex, just a fact of society.

You're gonna have to try harder than that, flame-warrior.

Why? Apparently my attempts are enough to engage you.

Anyway, if you have a cogent argument as to why my (non)beliefs make me socially incompetent and not self-aware, I'll listen. I don't see how you can argue that being against the marginalization of classes of people using the justification of religion is okay. I'm not against religious PEOPLE, I'm against religious POLICIES.

[Bildungsroman]

Where on earth did you get that I'm unable to get along with religious people? I said that Catholics are against gay-marriage and pro-choice, and I view those stances as being human rights violations. How exactly does that make me socially incompetent or give me a persecution complex?

It's a fact that gay people and women are marginalized, and that marginalization often occurs with the justification of religion. It's not a complex, just a fact of society.

You're gonna have to try harder than that, flame-warrior.

Why? Apparently my attempts are enough to engage you.

Anyway, if you have a cogent argument as to why my (non)beliefs make me socially incompetent and not self-aware, I'll listen. I don't see how you can argue that being against the marginalization of classes of people using the justification of religion is okay. I'm not against religious PEOPLE, I'm against religious POLICIES.

[kwais]

ITT: bildungsroman and others overreact to some extremely rational discussion. OP is only one without a "persecution complex". OP, I say, given the equal cost and rankings, look at job prospects and where you want to spend 3 years.

[bernard97]

Where on earth did you get that I'm unable to get along with religious people? I said that Catholics are against gay-marriage and pro-choice, and I view those stances as being human rights violations. How exactly does that make me socially incompetent or give me a persecution complex?

It's a fact that gay people and women are marginalized, and that marginalization often occurs with the justification of religion. It's not a complex, just a fact of society.

I know plenty of liberal catholics. Stop stereotyping and go to the school you like best. Don't base it on religious or political standings.

[handlesthetruth]

id take ND. Better placement in biglaw. 5k difference isnt that big.

don't forget to factor in that south bend will be cheaper than minneapolis

[Knock]

Where on earth did you get that I'm unable to get along with religious people? I said that Catholics are against gay-marriage and pro-choice, and I view those stances as being human rights violations. How exactly does that make me socially incompetent or give me a persecution complex?

It's a fact that gay people and women are marginalized, and that marginalization often occurs with the justification of religion. It's not a complex, just a fact of society.

I know plenty of liberal catholics. Stop stereotyping and go to the school you like best. Don't base it on religious or political standings.

The religious affiliation and culture of a school are important and valid factors for some in deciding what school they like best. If not a flame, it's pretty obvious that the OP would not be happy at a school with a religious affiliation, so he/she should go to Minnesota.

[YourCaptain]

Quix, did you write about your atheism in a "Why ND?" or your personal statement? (I'm assuming you discussed PI, but you never know...)

[quixotical]

The religious affiliation and culture of a school are important and valid factors for some in deciding what school they like best. If not a flame, it's pretty obvious that the OP would not be happy at a school with a religious affiliation, so he/she should go to Minnesota.

It's not a flame. I was raised Catholic, so I do know what I would be getting into-- I just want to know if the religious affiliation would be suffocating for someone who is an atheist, like BYU definitely would be. My family is Catholic and most of my friends are religious, so it's not that I hate/don't get along with religious people. I just don't want to support policies based on religious beliefs, and if that's what ND profs/students are looking to do, then you're right, I wouldn't be happy. But if the class experience is indistinguishable from a non-affiliated school, then it would be a different story.

[Na_Swatch]

Where on earth did you get that I'm unable to get along with religious people? I said that Catholics are against gay-marriage and pro-choice, and I view those stances as being human rights violations. How exactly does that make me socially incompetent or give me a persecution complex?

It's a fact that gay people and women are marginalized, and that marginalization often occurs with the justification of religion. It's not a complex, just a fact of society.

I know plenty of liberal catholics. Stop stereotyping and go to the school you like best. Don't base it on religious or political standings.

Seriously, if you're not a flame quixotical you're going to have to do better than such blanket and unsupported assertions or else you're going to be torn apart on law school exams.

Even at my very liberal school in the NE such phrases as, "I said that Catholics are against gay-marriage and pro-choice, and I view those stances as being human rights violations" will get you laughed out of class.

[quixotical]

Quix, did you write about your atheism in a "Why ND?" or your personal statement? (I'm assuming you discussed PI, but you never know...)

Yes.

[HeavenWood]

Liberalism implies tolerance. Christianity, by definition, excludes it.

Richard Dawkins is a shining beacon of tolerance.

[quixotical]

Seriously, if you're not a flame quixotical you're going to have to do better than such blanket and unsupported assertions or else you're going to be torn apart on law school exams.

Even at my very liberal school in the NE such phrases as, "I said that Catholics are against gay-marriage and pro-choice, and I view those stances as being human rights violations" will get you laughed out of class.

Are you serious? You must not be Catholic, because all Catholics know that the Pope's word = God's word. The Pope says gay-marriage is sinful, birth control is sinful, and abortion is sinful. Whether or not individual Catholics decide to ignore the Pope/cherry-pick beliefs they are most comfortable with is a different story. But Catholicism is not like different branches of Protestants, where you have a wider interpretation of religious texts. The Pope's word is God's word. End of story.

[Bildungsroman]

Seriously, if you're not a flame quixotical you're going to have to do better than such blanket and unsupported assertions or else you're going to be torn apart on law school exams.

Even at my very liberal school in the NE such phrases as, "I said that Catholics are against gay-marriage and pro-choice, and I view those stances as being human rights violations" will get you laughed out of class.

Are you serious? You must not be Catholic, because all Catholics know that the Pope's word = God's word. The Pope says gay-marriage is sinful, birth control is sinful, and abortion is sinful. Whether or not individual Catholics decide to ignore the Pope/cherry-pick beliefs they are most comfortable with is a different story. But Catholicism is not like different branches of Protestants, where you have a wider interpretation of religious texts. The Pope's word is God's word. End of story.

New topic: Is Protestantism the sissy version of Christianity? Discuss.

[bernard97]

Where on earth did you get that I'm unable to get along with religious people? I said that Catholics are against gay-marriage and pro-choice, and I view those stances as being human rights violations. How exactly does that make me socially incompetent or give me a persecution complex?

It's a fact that gay people and women are marginalized, and that marginalization often occurs with the justification of religion. It's not a complex, just a fact of society.

I know plenty of liberal catholics. Stop stereotyping and go to the school you like best. Don't base it on religious or political standings.

The religious affiliation and culture of a school are important and valid factors for some in deciding what school they like best. If not a flame, it's pretty obvious that the OP would not be happy at a school with a religious affiliation, so he/she should go to Minnesota.

Good point. If you can't get along with people with differing views, then that's going to happen anywhere you go. It might not happen as much at Minnesota, but the fact is, most people go about their days with their own beliefs and let you go about with yours. Their will always be that jackass that will condemn you to hell and tell you about murdering babies, but my point is that you are going to find that person wherever you go.

You will get along with people at both colleges as long as you respect differing views. If you can't respect that, then go to Minnesota.

[handlesthetruth]

ITT: TLS trolls trying to make the OP out to be such for no apparent reason.

[quixotical]

New topic: Is Protestantism the sissy version of Christianity? Discuss.

The Reformation already settled that. Check out the 95 Theses and decide for yourself.

Seriously, though-- I'm not trying to start a flame war, I am genuinely trying to figure out if I could be happy at ND. I don't know why you think I'm a flame, but would you mind PMing me instead of hijacking this thread if you have something to say? Because everyone else is offering sincere advice.

[bernard97]

Seriously, if you're not a flame quixotical you're going to have to do better than such blanket and unsupported assertions or else you're going to be torn apart on law school exams.

Even at my very liberal school in the NE such phrases as, "I said that Catholics are against gay-marriage and pro-choice, and I view those stances as being human rights violations" will get you laughed out of class.

Are you serious? You must not be Catholic, because all Catholics know that the Pope's word = God's word. The Pope says gay-marriage is sinful, birth control is sinful, and abortion is sinful. Whether or not individual Catholics decide to ignore the Pope/cherry-pick beliefs they are most comfortable with is a different story. But Catholicism is not like different branches of Protestants, where you have a wider interpretation of religious texts. The Pope's word is God's word. End of story.

Catholic /= Roman Catholic

And once again, members of the ROMAN catholic church can still be liberal. Its not like they kick you out for not agreeing with everything the pope says, and you can still identify yourself as catholic

[Na_Swatch]

Seriously, if you're not a flame quixotical you're going to have to do better than such blanket and unsupported assertions or else you're going to be torn apart on law school exams.

Even at my very liberal school in the NE such phrases as, "I said that Catholics are against gay-marriage and pro-choice, and I view those stances as being human rights violations" will get you laughed out of class.

Are you serious? You must not be Catholic, because all Catholics know that the Pope's word = God's word. The Pope says gay-marriage is sinful, birth control is sinful, and abortion is sinful. Whether or not individual Catholics decide to ignore the Pope/cherry-pick beliefs they are most comfortable with is a different story. But Catholicism is not like different branches of Protestants, where you have a wider interpretation of religious texts. The Pope's word is God's word. End of story.

I'm not Catholic myself, but even a basic person keeping up with current events know that a large portion (and likely majority) of US Catholics don't adhere to every Papal position. For instance, the birth control issue that you mentioned is widely disclaimed in most of America.

Mainly though I was commenting on the phrase "human rights violations" more so than what you said about Catholics in general and when you toss around stuff like "Christianity, by definition, excludes it" your statements are clearly just false truisms.

[quixotical]

Liberalism implies tolerance. Christianity, by definition, excludes it.

Richard Dawkins is a shining beacon of tolerance.

I've heard that a lot-- but being intolerant of others' intolerance isn't a bad thing. It's why we have the moral authority to say genocide is wrong, even if the genocide is motivated by religious reasons. We can be intolerant of the genocide perpetrators' intolerance.

[birdlaw117]

OP, I say, given the equal cost and rankings, look at job prospects and where you want to spend 3 years.

This is always credited. There was never a need to really discuss the specific issues that would make OP uncomfortable at ND (except for him being a flame). If OP would be uncomfortable at ND, and Minnesota is more his cup of tea, then s/he should go to Minnesota without any doubt.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people ask for personal preference advice on these forums. Sometimes it makes sense. Like if they don't know the characteristics of different schools/regions. But when they basically ask the question "should I go to the school I'm going to be happy at, or the one I'm going to hate, all other things equal?" I just don't understand...

[Stanford4Me]

You should read TLS's profile of NDLS. The only reason I'm still posting in here is because I feel like you are over exaggerating the extent to which Catholic doctrine penetrates the Law School.

Religion and Politics

Some non-Catholics, atheists, and agnostics are apprehensive about attending the nation’s most famously Catholic university. While the proportions of Catholic students and faculty have declined in recent decades, Notre Dame still stresses its religious roots and mission. Social politics in line with Catholic doctrine are also prominent. But according to NDLS students on TLS, non-Catholics need not fear being isolated or ostracized. One “Double Domer” (someone who attended Notre Dame for undergrad and law school) who is “not religious at all” reports:

Religion doesn't play a role at all in the first year courses, except that some professors do the sign of the cross before class and there is a crucifix in every classroom….I’ve been here for four years and I’ve never had a problem with the religious environment. I think it makes us distinctive, which I actually like despite the fact I've never really participated in it. I don't believe the religious aspect should be a huge part of the decision making process, unless it is positive for you.[vii]


Another student advises potential worriers:

For virtually all non-Catholics at Notre Dame, it's never been an issue. You let the 10-second prayer at the start of a few professors' class roll past. You won't even know when or where weekly mass is. You will never set foot in the chapel in the law school. You just live your life and accept that there might be people of faith taking their faith seriously around you.[viii]

Still another, addressing the political side of things, writes:

You'd actually be surprised at the range of views and events they have—a month or so ago, they had LGBT awareness week at the law school with speakers all week, which was extremely well-attended, [including] a con law professor talking about gay marriage and the first openly gay judge in Illinois talking about his experiences (and openly criticizing the Catholic Church and its stance on homosexuality to boot). I've had one professor who prayed before one class, but it was a small seminar class and the only class he prayed before was the last class of the semester, which he had at his house as a semi-Christmas party/discussion. Don't worry; there are definitely people who think like you.[ix]

To be sure, Catholicism is a constant part of life at NDLS, and law school candidates who are particularly uncomfortable with public displays of religiosity may want to look elsewhere. But on the whole, non-Catholics should not write off Notre Dame if it is a good fit along most dimensions.

I wouldn't have a problem with anything you said if you didn't say it in such an arrogant and matter-of-fact manner. That being said, go to Minnesota.

[quixotical]

Seriously, if you're not a flame quixotical you're going to have to do better than such blanket and unsupported assertions or else you're going to be torn apart on law school exams.

Even at my very liberal school in the NE such phrases as, "I said that Catholics are against gay-marriage and pro-choice, and I view those stances as being human rights violations" will get you laughed out of class.

Are you serious? You must not be Catholic, because all Catholics know that the Pope's word = God's word. The Pope says gay-marriage is sinful, birth control is sinful, and abortion is sinful. Whether or not individual Catholics decide to ignore the Pope/cherry-pick beliefs they are most comfortable with is a different story. But Catholicism is not like different branches of Protestants, where you have a wider interpretation of religious texts. The Pope's word is God's word. End of story.

I'm not Catholic myself, but even a basic person keeping up with current events know that a large portion (and likely majority) of US Catholics don't adhere to every Papal position. For instance, the birth control issue that you mentioned is widely disclaimed in most of America.

Mainly though I was commenting on the phrase "human rights violations" more so than what you said about Catholics in general and when you toss around stuff like "Christianity, by definition, excludes it" your statements are clearly just false truisms.

Whether or not some or even most US Catholics adhere to Papal positions isn't relevant to institutions like ND that are Catholic, and accept the basic tenet that the Pope's word = God's word.

Please don't misquote me. I said religion by definition is exclusionary. Meaning in part that it excludes non-believers from salvation. I didn't say that being religious and being supportive of human rights are mutually exclusive, because obviously they are not.

[kwais]

You should read TLS's profile of NDLS. The only reason I'm still posting in here is because I feel like you are over exaggerating the extent to which Catholic doctrine penetrates the Law School.

Religion and Politics

Some non-Catholics, atheists, and agnostics are apprehensive about attending the nation’s most famously Catholic university. While the proportions of Catholic students and faculty have declined in recent decades, Notre Dame still stresses its religious roots and mission. Social politics in line with Catholic doctrine are also prominent. But according to NDLS students on TLS, non-Catholics need not fear being isolated or ostracized. One “Double Domer” (someone who attended Notre Dame for undergrad and law school) who is “not religious at all” reports:

Religion doesn't play a role at all in the first year courses, except that some professors do the sign of the cross before class and there is a crucifix in every classroom….I’ve been here for four years and I’ve never had a problem with the religious environment. I think it makes us distinctive, which I actually like despite the fact I've never really participated in it. I don't believe the religious aspect should be a huge part of the decision making process, unless it is positive for you.[vii]


Another student advises potential worriers:

For virtually all non-Catholics at Notre Dame, it's never been an issue. You let the 10-second prayer at the start of a few professors' class roll past. You won't even know when or where weekly mass is. You will never set foot in the chapel in the law school. You just live your life and accept that there might be people of faith taking their faith seriously around you.[viii]

Still another, addressing the political side of things, writes:

You'd actually be surprised at the range of views and events they have—a month or so ago, they had LGBT awareness week at the law school with speakers all week, which was extremely well-attended, [including] a con law professor talking about gay marriage and the first openly gay judge in Illinois talking about his experiences (and openly criticizing the Catholic Church and its stance on homosexuality to boot). I've had one professor who prayed before one class, but it was a small seminar class and the only class he prayed before was the last class of the semester, which he had at his house as a semi-Christmas party/discussion. Don't worry; there are definitely people who think like you.[ix]

To be sure, Catholicism is a constant part of life at NDLS, and law school candidates who are particularly uncomfortable with public displays of religiosity may want to look elsewhere. But on the whole, non-Catholics should not write off Notre Dame if it is a good fit along most dimensions.

I wouldn't have a problem with anything you said if you didn't say it in such an arrogant and matter-of-fact manner. That being said, go to Minnesota.

OMG, he's ASKING the extent of Catholic influence at ND, not proclaiming it. And the only arrogance and matter-of-factness going on here on your part. This is getting silly.