Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$? Forum

[beachbum]

I doubt the purveyance of religion there is a problem for most students.

Isn't sex banned at BYU? I'd have a problem with that.

Then you're probably not a super-awesome Mormon.

Says the virgin

Womp womp

[bk1]

And the reason most people give for 'not wanting to' is because they believe they are intellectually superior to religious people and shouldn't have to be weighed down by their backwards beliefs. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but every discussion I've ever had with an atheist talking about how I go to ND espouses this view.

I never said it wasn't intolerant.

[Sauer Grapes]

As a liberal, I value tolerance so much that I am unable to tolerate being around religious people, whose tolerance does not match mine.

I understand the joke you're making, but liberalism being intolerant of intolerance, though it sounds like a paradox, is not. Christianity, and most religions, by definition are exclusionary, even though some practitioners of that religion may be more tolerant than their religious doctrines would suggest.

Again, I'm not looking for a religious debate-- I'd just refer you to Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens-- but as you can see I have pretty strong beliefs about my non-belief. I'm just trying to figure out if ND should be a consideration given that.

This guy might be able to give you some insight.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/m ... le&u=52566

[czelede]

If you cannot deal with Notre Dame's religious aspect, then you are bordering on intolerant yourself.

There's a difference between not being capable and simply not wanting to.

And the reason most people give for 'not wanting to' is because they believe they are intellectually superior to religious people and shouldn't have to be weighed down by their backwards beliefs. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but every discussion I've ever had with an atheist talking about how I go to ND espouses this view.

The superiority attitude goes both ways. I don't think most atheists believe they are intellectually superior to most religious people (save for Richard Dawkins, but I'm sorry the guy's kind of a really angry asshole); I think most atheists believe they are intellectually superior to most religious nutcases. And let's be fair, I would posit that most people are intellectually superior to most religious nutcases.

As someone who is religious and liberal, I would not want to spend three years in an institution that was very fervently conservative. This has no bearing on whether I get along with or respect conservatives - in fact, I have some extremely conservative friends I can have very interesting and in depth political conversations with - it would simply not be an environment in which I would be comfortable for that much time, day in and day out. Similarly, I would not fault a conservative for not wanting to attend Berkeley for the converse reason. There are deeply religious people that are tolerant and deeply religious people that are intolerant, and I don't think there's anything intolerant about an atheist wanting to maximize their chances of not being around the latter.

That being said, again, I think OP is misunderstanding ND's environment. But that's probably the purpose of this thread, I guess.

[barry]

I'm sure there are plenty of libs at ND, i went to a catholic undergrad and there were tons of libs who didn't like religion, sometimes i think libs like to go to these type of schools to try to "convert" the students

[Skyhook]

OP and skyhook should go to ND, maybe they will learn to become more tolerant of people's religious beliefs

seriously though i could never go to Berk, i'd lose my mind so i can see where they are coming from

Didn't apply. Quite happy in my choice of schools though, thanks

If you cannot deal with Notre Dame's religious aspect, then you are bordering on intolerant yourself.

Where am I intolerant?

If you cannot deal with Notre Dame's religious aspect, then you are bordering on intolerant yourself.

There's a difference between not being capable and simply not wanting to.

Precisely.

[firemed]

The superiority attitude goes both ways. I don't think most atheists believe they are intellectually superior to most religious people (save for Richard Dawkins, but I'm sorry the guy's kind of a really angry asshole); I think most atheists believe they are intellectually superior to most religious nutcases. And let's be fair, I would posit that most people are intellectually superior to most religious nutcases.

As someone who is religious and liberal, I would not want to spend three years in an institution that was very fervently conservative. This has no bearing on whether I get along with or respect conservatives - in fact, I have some extremely conservative friends I can have very interesting and in depth political conversations with - it would simply not be an environment in which I would be comfortable for that much time, day in and day out. Similarly, I would not fault a conservative for not wanting to attend Berkeley for the converse reason. There are deeply religious people that are tolerant and deeply religious people that are intolerant, and I don't think there's anything intolerant about an atheist wanting to maximize their chances of not being around the latter.

Yeah... but the feeling I often get from atheists doesn't mirror what you said above. See, I wouldn't go to a conservative institution because I disagree with them. And it would get old arguing all the time. But I do respect them. Some of the smartest people I know are conservative. I don't think the solutions are the same... but it is not because I believe they are intellectually inferior and support a system which causes atrocities. Which is, let us face it, what a significant number atheists think about religious people.

At this point it is pretty obvious where OP wants to go. I am glad to hear that ND is a cool place. But I sincerely doubt OP really cares.

[Skyhook]

I know a handful of people who attended ND, and about two of them who attended ND Law. Of the ones around my age (C/O 2007-2010), the majority of them are fairly apathetic about religion despite that many of them were raised Catholic (like you, OP). They have a lot of school spirit and are some of the hardest partiers I know. In general I would be far more likely to find them passed out in a puddle of green puke than trying to discuss religion or politics with anyone (and biggest drunkard of these NDers is now in law school, so take that for what you will). The minority, however (two people I know) are staunch Catholics that attend anti-abortion rallies and constantly post things on FB from catholicvote.org, mainly anti-abortion/anti-PP articles (a lot of them largely wrong, lol) and stuff about how lightning striking the White House is related to Obama not recognizing Easter or something. They are nice people though, and I can't imagine that having to take torts with them would be too intolerable, particularly since your class would be tempered by people who are drawn to ND for the national prestige and sports teams.

ETA: In summary, I think you may be overblowing how many people will be trying to convert you in the ND classroom. Law tends to attract a lot of liberal people, and a lot of these people do attend ND. I don't think you would hate being there, but if you are annoyed by religious overtures and don't mind working in Minneapolis, Minnesota may be a better choice.

I don't think I could agree with the bolded.
But I'm sure at every law school, just as in life, there are people whose opinions are way out there.

I've been reading some of the material on ND's website.
Is Professor Barrett's commencement speech indicative?
These texts suggest the religious theme flows through the school fairly prominently.
And as Czelde says, if you are annoyed by these overtures...

[The Kid]

In one of the first pages of this thread OP said something about religion being something intrinsically intolerant and exclusive.

Then, he tells us he applied to ND, reported being an atheist, and even wrote his opional essay about atheism.

Next step, ND accepts him and offers him money.

Isn't there a slight gap between his views and his own personal experience?

[Bildungsroman]

In one of the first pages of this thread OP said something about religion being something intrinsically intolerant and exclusive.

Then, he tells us he applied to ND, reported being an atheist, and even wrote his opional essay about atheism.

Next step, ND accepts him and offers him money.

Isn't there a slight gap between his views and his own personal experience?

Clearly they're just trying to lure him into a trap so they can oppress him for 3 years!

I still say he's a flame.

[Marionberry]

I still say he's a flame.

+1. Even after his question was pretty well answered, he kept responding with posts that were, at best, mildly inflammatory.

[Magnolia]

I still say he's a flame.

+1. Even after his question was pretty well answered, he kept responding with posts that were, at best, mildly inflammatory.

Not sure if anyone here was involved in the anti-fraternity thread in the lounge last night, but OP is the femi-nazi who kept arguing that anyone who supports educating women on the dangers of accepting an open drink from a stranger is a rape apologist.

Me thinks she will not fare well at ND.

[firemed]

I still say he's a flame.

+1. Even after his question was pretty well answered, he kept responding with posts that were, at best, mildly inflammatory.

Not sure if anyone here was involved in the anti-fraternity thread in the lounge last night, but OP is the femi-nazi who kept arguing that anyone who supports educating women on the dangers of accepting an open drink from a stranger is a rape apologist.

Me thinks she will not fare well at ND.

Wait, what? How is that... huh? I'll go look for the frat thread and see if it makes more sense....

[Bildungsroman]

I still say he's a flame.

+1. Even after his question was pretty well answered, he kept responding with posts that were, at best, mildly inflammatory.

Not sure if anyone here was involved in the anti-fraternity thread in the lounge last night, but OP is the femi-nazi who kept arguing that anyone who supports educating women on the dangers of accepting an open drink from a stranger is a rape apologist.

Me thinks she will not fare well at ND.

Wait, what? How is that... huh? I'll go look for the frat thread and see if it makes more sense....

This is not the course of action I'd advise. In response to Magnolia's post I started reading that thread from the beginning. It is ... interesting retarded.

[splitmuch]

Once again I can't speak to the law school but at least in undergrad extreme feminism actually might cause some problems that I think the OP overstates with regards to atheism.

OP go to Minn.

[firemed]

Wait, what? How is that... huh? I'll go look for the frat thread and see if it makes more sense....

This is not the course of action I'd advise. In response to Magnolia's post I started reading that thread from the beginning. It is ... interesting retarded.

Too late. I can't stop reading though.... like a train wreck, it is.

[Magnolia]

Wait, what? How is that... huh? I'll go look for the frat thread and see if it makes more sense....

This is not the course of action I'd advise. In response to Magnolia's post I started reading that thread from the beginning. It is ... interesting retarded.

Too late. I can't stop reading though.... like a train wreck, it is.

lol sorry...

[bernard97]

Wait, what? How is that... huh? I'll go look for the frat thread and see if it makes more sense....

This is not the course of action I'd advise. In response to Magnolia's post I started reading that thread from the beginning. It is ... interesting retarded.

Too late. I can't stop reading though.... like a train wreck, it is.

lol sorry...

lol same

[quixotical]

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who took the time to reply and offer their opinion/perspective on ND for an atheist student. I'm going to visit their campus and see how I feel. Reading these posts helped me figure out what to look for/what questions to ask to see if I could be happy/comfortable studying law there. Thanks again!

[legendkiller]

just saw this thread and thought i would way in

Disclaimer:I am a Christian

1. The BYU and the ND comparison are a little different i think in terms of the religiosity, In the US, there are more Christians then Mormons(fact--not debating merits/religious aspect, just by pure numbers). As well, there are more "Christian" schools then "Mormon" ones. For Christian/Catholic bents, one has numerous undergrads to choose from as well as some law schools(ND,Regent, St Thomas(Florida and Minn), Ave Maria, Catholic University, Texas Wesleyan(?), SMU(?),Pontifical Catholic, Roger Williams etc). For Mormons, especially for law school, they really have the choice of BYU, or Utah to a much lesser extent. As such, I would expect BYU(especially with their Religious bent honor code) to be a lot more "religious"...At the same time, especially with law school, any ABA accredited school has to teach certain classes. So, any school can only be "religious" to some degree. Overall, I do not feel the BYU to ND comparison is that fair since ND is one of a few Catholic institutions while BYU is the only "official" one (Also, the Church of Latter-Day Saints funds BYU--Does the Catholic Church help fund Notre Dame--I do not know the answer to this question).

2. You have to keep in mind that your law school experience will be tons different then undergrad. For one, you most likely won't be living on campus. As such, your immersion into the campus culture won't be much outside of classes and student involvement(and the latter you have complete control over what you get involved in). With Law school, you will have very little free time in all likelihood, so a lot of your time will be in the library, you apartment etc. You certainly will not be forced to partake in much of the religious aspect of the school. With any experience/school, it will be what you make of it. Can you go to chapel at ND if you want? Of course...but you also can not go to chapel and you won't be shamed or anything.

3. At ANY law school you attend, there will be religious nuts, there will be the tolerantly religious, neutral, tolerantly athiest and athiest nuts. That is nothing more though then a commentary on our society and how diverse it is--You might get a little more of it at a ND or a BYU type of school, but I doubt it would be significantly more, if at all. As a result, unless you hugely worry about the religious dimension, it should not have a big effect on what law school you attend. Remember, you are going to law school to get a job, have a career etc. Three years of your life is not that long in comparison then if the school you choose is "better"(by any subjective argument) and will result in "better" career choices for you. The key question then, after hearing from many TLSers and visiting ND is to ask A. "Is ND or Minnesota a better choice for my career goals"? and B(to a much lesser extent), "Would I be happy with either school"?. As well, given the small ranking difference(though ND has more lay prestige as has been said), you also need to ask "In what environment will i succeed more academically?".

4. In your case, in reading the entire thread, I think it's become quite obvious that you believe the religious dimension to be a significant issue, and it seems like it is a bigger issue to you then the issue of career prospects. You have a stereotype on what Catholics are (like any generalization, it is definitely not 100 percent true) like. There is a talk from NDers that there are crucifixes and occasional prayers and these(in the grand scheme of things) seem to be a huge issue for you--It seems like it is hard for you to get away from that stereotype and those small displays of religiosity to an extent where it may hurt your ability to focus in law school. You see the religious/belief differences as so much of an issue that I do not think it makes sense for you to attend ND. Consequently, with all the information on this thread, I think you need to attend Minnesota.