Chicago V Columbia Forum

[ViperX]

Hello world.

I am attempting to decide between Columbia and Chicago without money at either place. I am interested in working for the federal government (maybe as a prosecutor). If not that, I would go into private practice probably. Further, finances are of no concern, so if I work as a prosecutor I wouldn't be worrying about differences in LRAP programs. I much prefer the idea of living in New York but I imagine I can work things out in Chicago. After graduation I don't much care where I end up. I hear Chicago is very academically inclined and I'm sort of tired of that (my undergrad was pretty academic), but I also hear they have great teachers, and that they hire only those who are very committed to excellent teaching. Learning from professors at Columbia sounds more exciting to me since they, on the whole, seem more practically engaged in the legal community. However, if they aren't very good teachers, perhaps it wouldn't matter how excited I am to take classes there. I know the idea of going to Columbia is exciting to me, whereas Chicago, not so much, and I don't think this has much to do with lay prestige; in all seriousness I just think I might do better at Columbia since I am tired of academics publishing works that are only read by other academics. I heard Chicago has a saying "well, this works well in practice, but what about in theory?" and that approach has no appeal to me whatsoever. But even if I am annoyed by that, perhaps I would do better just because the faculty seems more engaged in my welfare there.

Any thoughts? I am more than willing to plead ignorance on these issues. I just need some arguments for both sides. I'm hoping somebody will hit on something I haven't thought of.

[Knock]

Hello world.

I am attempting to decide between Columbia and Chicago without money at either place. I am interested in working for the federal government (maybe as a prosecutor). If not that, I would go into private practice probably. Further, finances are of no concern, so if I work as a prosecutor I wouldn't be worrying about differences in LRAP programs. I much prefer the idea of living in New York but I imagine I can work things out in Chicago. After graduation I don't much care where I end up. I hear Chicago is very academically inclined and I'm sort of tired of that (my undergrad was pretty academic), but I also hear they have great teachers, and that they hire only those who are very committed to excellent teaching. Learning from professors at Columbia sounds more exciting to me since they, on the whole, seem more practically engaged in the legal community. However, if they aren't very good teachers, perhaps it wouldn't matter how excited I am to take classes there. I know the idea of going to Columbia is exciting to me, whereas Chicago, not so much, and I don't think this has much to do with lay prestige; in all seriousness I just think I might do better at Columbia since I am tired of academics publishing works that are only read by other academics. I heard Chicago has a saying "well, this works well in practice, but what about in theory?" and that approach has no appeal to me whatsoever. But even if I am annoyed by that, perhaps I would do better just because the faculty seems more engaged in my welfare there.

Any thoughts? I am more than willing to plead ignorance on these issues. I just need some arguments for both sides. I'm hoping somebody will hit on something I haven't thought of.

Sounds like you are definitely leaning Columbia, so I think you should go there!

[bhan87]

Hello world.

I am attempting to decide between Columbia and Chicago without money at either place. I am interested in working for the federal government (maybe as a prosecutor). If not that, I would go into private practice probably. Further, finances are of no concern, so if I work as a prosecutor I wouldn't be worrying about differences in LRAP programs. I much prefer the idea of living in New York but I imagine I can work things out in Chicago. After graduation I don't much care where I end up. I hear Chicago is very academically inclined and I'm sort of tired of that (my undergrad was pretty academic), but I also hear they have great teachers, and that they hire only those who are very committed to excellent teaching. Learning from professors at Columbia sounds more exciting to me since they, on the whole, seem more practically engaged in the legal community. However, if they aren't very good teachers, perhaps it wouldn't matter how excited I am to take classes there. I know the idea of going to Columbia is exciting to me, whereas Chicago, not so much, and I don't think this has much to do with lay prestige; in all seriousness I just think I might do better at Columbia since I am tired of academics publishing works that are only read by other academics. I heard Chicago has a saying "well, this works well in practice, but what about in theory?" and that approach has no appeal to me whatsoever. But even if I am annoyed by that, perhaps I would do better just because the faculty seems more engaged in my welfare there.

Any thoughts? I am more than willing to plead ignorance on these issues. I just need some arguments for both sides. I'm hoping somebody will hit on something I haven't thought of.

Sounds like you are definitely leaning Columbia, so I think you should go there!

+1

[delusional]

Hello world.

I am attempting to decide between Columbia and Chicago without money at either place. I am interested in working for the federal government (maybe as a prosecutor). If not that, I would go into private practice probably. Further, finances are of no concern, so if I work as a prosecutor I wouldn't be worrying about differences in LRAP programs. I much prefer the idea of living in New York but I imagine I can work things out in Chicago. After graduation I don't much care where I end up. I hear Chicago is very academically inclined and I'm sort of tired of that (my undergrad was pretty academic), but I also hear they have great teachers, and that they hire only those who are very committed to excellent teaching. Learning from professors at Columbia sounds more exciting to me since they, on the whole, seem more practically engaged in the legal community. However, if they aren't very good teachers, perhaps it wouldn't matter how excited I am to take classes there. I know the idea of going to Columbia is exciting to me, whereas Chicago, not so much, and I don't think this has much to do with lay prestige; in all seriousness I just think I might do better at Columbia since I am tired of academics publishing works that are only read by other academics. I heard Chicago has a saying "well, this works well in practice, but what about in theory?" and that approach has no appeal to me whatsoever. But even if I am annoyed by that, perhaps I would do better just because the faculty seems more engaged in my welfare there.

Any thoughts? I am more than willing to plead ignorance on these issues. I just need some arguments for both sides. I'm hoping somebody will hit on something I haven't thought of.

ITT: Vanderbilt/Walton/Rothschild wants to become a prosecutor, seeks cutting edge school with mediocre academics. Columbia has great professors who aren't good teachers. Chicago is boring despite possibly great teachers who ask strange questions.

[bhan87]

ITT: Vanderbilt/Walton/Rothschild wants to become a prosecutor, seeks cutting edge school with mediocre academics. Columbia has great professors who aren't good teachers. Chicago is boring despite possibly great teachers who ask strange questions.

What are you basing this on? Do you attend CLS? Have you compared the teaching at CLS to another faculty? And how do we know you didn't just happen to get the worst professors at CLS?

[delusional]

ITT: Vanderbilt/Walton/Rothschild wants to become a prosecutor, seeks cutting edge school with mediocre academics. Columbia has great professors who aren't good teachers. Chicago is boring despite possibly great teachers who ask strange questions.

What are you basing this on? Do you attend CLS? Have you compared the teaching at CLS to another faculty? And how do we know you didn't just happen to get the worst professors at CLS?

I was basing it on the information in the OP. (With a little creative license)

[bhan87]

ITT: Vanderbilt/Walton/Rothschild wants to become a prosecutor, seeks cutting edge school with mediocre academics. Columbia has great professors who aren't good teachers. Chicago is boring despite possibly great teachers who ask strange questions.

What are you basing this on? Do you attend CLS? Have you compared the teaching at CLS to another faculty? And how do we know you didn't just happen to get the worst professors at CLS?

I was basing it on the information in the OP. (With a little creative license)

Ah... gotcha

[lakerfanimal]

These schools are basically the same opportunities wise (give or take small advantages for either one in certain areas). But you sound like you'd regret going to Chicago, so see you at CLS next year!

[trudat15]

Hello world.

I am attempting to decide between Columbia and Chicago without money at either place. I am interested in working for the federal government (maybe as a prosecutor). If not that, I would go into private practice probably. Further, finances are of no concern, so if I work as a prosecutor I wouldn't be worrying about differences in LRAP programs. I much prefer the idea of living in New York but I imagine I can work things out in Chicago. After graduation I don't much care where I end up. I hear Chicago is very academically inclined and I'm sort of tired of that (my undergrad was pretty academic), but I also hear they have great teachers, and that they hire only those who are very committed to excellent teaching. Learning from professors at Columbia sounds more exciting to me since they, on the whole, seem more practically engaged in the legal community. However, if they aren't very good teachers, perhaps it wouldn't matter how excited I am to take classes there. I know the idea of going to Columbia is exciting to me, whereas Chicago, not so much, and I don't think this has much to do with lay prestige; in all seriousness I just think I might do better at Columbia since I am tired of academics publishing works that are only read by other academics. I heard Chicago has a saying "well, this works well in practice, but what about in theory?" and that approach has no appeal to me whatsoever. But even if I am annoyed by that, perhaps I would do better just because the faculty seems more engaged in my welfare there.

Any thoughts? I am more than willing to plead ignorance on these issues. I just need some arguments for both sides. I'm hoping somebody will hit on something I haven't thought of.

Expanding on Knock's points, this entire OP seems like you are convinced you dont want to go to Chicago and want to go to Columbia, and the only issue being you think the Chicago's profs might be better at "teaching."

I can't say I'm really qualified to comment on the comparative teaching of the profs at CLS vs UChi (I dont think anyone here really is), but I'm sure there will be plenty of profs at Columbia that are good at teaching too. Go there.

[ViperX]

Thanks guys for all of your comments! I appreciate it. I wrote this very quickly before going out for the evening. I think you guys nailed pretty well my original feelings about this whole thing. Any insights as to where I'm more likely to get into government work? (DOJ Honors program perhaps?)

Also, the point about better teachers really concerns me. I feel like my enthusiasm for Columbia is based on some pretty superficial things (Columbia professors seem to lead exciting lives...). But I feel like the professors at Chicago are more accessible and more likely to fight for me, so while Columbia might have more interesting connections to practical law, perhaps Chicago professors are likely to go the extra mile to help me obtain the positions that the Columbia professors are connected to but may not help me get because they just aren't as involved.

If it is true that Chicago professors are more likely to fight for me, then it seems I'm better off at Chicago even if I'm not as interested in their "extra-curricular" pursuits. Perhaps the excitement of Columbia professors will wear off quick and I'll realize I'm just another face in the crowd, and then I'd perhaps be better off at Chicago with a larger amount of professors who personally knew me and supported me.

Any thoughts?

[trudat15]

Thanks guys for all of your comments! I appreciate it. I wrote this very quickly before going out for the evening. I think you guys nailed pretty well my original feelings about this whole thing. Any insights as to where I'm more likely to get into government work? (DOJ Honors program perhaps?)

Also, the point about better teachers really concerns me. I feel like my enthusiasm for Columbia is based on some pretty superficial things (Columbia professors seem to lead exciting lives...). But I feel like the professors at Chicago are more accessible and more likely to fight for me, so while Columbia might have more interesting connections to practical law, perhaps Chicago professors are likely to go the extra mile to help me obtain the positions that the Columbia professors are connected to but may not help me get because they just aren't as involved.

If it is true that Chicago professors are more likely to fight for me, then it seems I'm better off at Chicago even if I'm not as interested in their "extra-curricular" pursuits. Perhaps the excitement of Columbia professors will wear off quick and I'll realize I'm just another face in the crowd, and then I'd perhaps be better off at Chicago with a larger amount of professors who personally knew me and supported me.

Any thoughts?

Well chi def has a smaller class, which i imagine helps in getting to know your profs, but when you start taking seminars and such, there wont be that many kids per class anyways you should talk to current students (I'm sure there's a cls 1l/2l/3l students taking questions thread around here somewhere. I'm sure they would know much more about how involved the profs are there.

[Dany]

I mean, I love Chicago, but if finances are of no concern and you want to be in NYC, just go to Columbia. They're equally fantastic schools, and I'm sure you'll do just fine with the professors at CLS.

[lakerfanimal]

Thanks guys for all of your comments! I appreciate it. I wrote this very quickly before going out for the evening. I think you guys nailed pretty well my original feelings about this whole thing. Any insights as to where I'm more likely to get into government work? (DOJ Honors program perhaps?)

Also, the point about better teachers really concerns me. I feel like my enthusiasm for Columbia is based on some pretty superficial things (Columbia professors seem to lead exciting lives...). But I feel like the professors at Chicago are more accessible and more likely to fight for me, so while Columbia might have more interesting connections to practical law, perhaps Chicago professors are likely to go the extra mile to help me obtain the positions that the Columbia professors are connected to but may not help me get because they just aren't as involved.

If it is true that Chicago professors are more likely to fight for me, then it seems I'm better off at Chicago even if I'm not as interested in their "extra-curricular" pursuits. Perhaps the excitement of Columbia professors will wear off quick and I'll realize I'm just another face in the crowd, and then I'd perhaps be better off at Chicago with a larger amount of professors who personally knew me and supported me.

Any thoughts?

I think if you're very interested in a certain area of the law and have some experience in it, then you find the professor who specializes in that and just get to know them and develop a relationship. You can do that anywhere (at least for sure in the top schools like these two). If you're sort of unsure in terms of what area you want to go to, then I'd imagine Chicago's smaller class size could help? I think it may be one of those things where at Chicago, professors may be more inclined to check up on students, whereas at CLS you have to be proactive about cultivating relationships with professors (I have no basis for this, but this is what I'm guessing). I'm going to CLS but have already started talking to a prof and they have been incredibly helpful/receptive.

[bdubs]

OP: do you have a particular area of interest? Columbia has more than 2x more faculty than Chicago, both full time and part time. If you make an effort to reach out to those in your field of interest, you may actually have more mentorship opportunities at Columbia.

Also, I have found when really digging into the faculty rosters that some schools are just weak in certain areas. Make sure your area is not one of weakness at either school.

[jaymoney]

I personally love it at UChicago, the professors, our students, the atmosphere, etc. -- however, it looks like your heart is set on Columbia. Especially if money is of no concern, then you should do what you think will make you happier since these schools are not going to be that materially different unless you have some sort of specific need. In the end, grades are still key, so if you think you'll be more motivated and do better at Columbia, then go there.

While I do think I've had many profs who have been accessible, helpful and good teachers -- in the end, getting professors to help you has a LOT more to do with your personal initiative and much less with how the school as a whole is. (e.g. If you're lazy about it, at either school, the profs aren't going to go out of their way for you, and I'm sure at either school if you're very pro-active you can find profs who are interested in helping you.)

I should also note that random mentors and people who want to help you if you engage them will come up in a lot of other situations as well, so your profs don't necessarily have to be the ones to be your connection to the outside legal world. For example, there are various mentoring programs, alumni networks (very effective), people you will meet in internships, people you will meet in volunteer work, even at OCI recruiting events, etc. -- you will find this at Columbia, too, I'm sure.