Boston College 1.1k/mo for 10yrs vs Boston University 1.3k Forum

[jpSartre]

Good counterpoint. I'll respond with, statistics mean nothing to the individual, etc.

[BCLS Alum]

There are like no 3Ls or actual lawyers on these boards. The only actual lawyers that come here only come here sporadically to post a few times. Then poof.

A 2L who had gone through OCI and talked to other 2L's who had done it would more than suffice. I don't think there are many BU/BC 2L's on here (the BU/BC kids on here I can think of are all 1L's, though I could be wrong).

There are a few of us alums that post, and a few current students. Feel free to ask us questions on the other board:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=148248

[FiveSermon]

There are like no 3Ls or actual lawyers on these boards. The only actual lawyers that come here only come here sporadically to post a few times. Then poof.

A 2L who had gone through OCI and talked to other 2L's who had done it would more than suffice. I don't think there are many BU/BC 2L's on here (the BU/BC kids on here I can think of are all 1L's, though I could be wrong).

There are a few of us alums that post, and a few current students. Feel free to ask us questions on the other board:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=148248

Sucks that you graduated pre ITE and thus your experiences are of very little help ITE.

[alumniguy]

There are like no 3Ls or actual lawyers on these boards. The only actual lawyers that come here only come here sporadically to post a few times. Then poof.

A 2L who had gone through OCI and talked to other 2L's who had done it would more than suffice. I don't think there are many BU/BC 2L's on here (the BU/BC kids on here I can think of are all 1L's, though I could be wrong).

There are a few of us alums that post, and a few current students. Feel free to ask us questions on the other board:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=148248

Sucks that you graduated pre ITE and thus your experiences are of very little help ITE.

WTF? So if you graduated pre ITE then you're useless and if you are a 2L then you're useless...so what classes, if any, have any input of value to you?

Here is the scoop. Schools in the T20s/T30s were most likely the major benefactors of the legal bubble pre ITE. Biglaw needed warm bodies and there weren't enough T14 students to take. So, the firms dipped deeper into the classes at this next tier of school. That is not the case anymore. The only data we have on actual employment (contrasted to summer employment) ITE is the NLJ250 - which data contains information concerning the summer class of 2009. This class is UNLIKE the class of 2010 in so far as there were many more summer associates hired in 2009 than full-time offers made. Once you are a summer, you are competing with other summers. A firm that likes summer X over summer Y is going to give summer X an offer even if summer X is from BC and summer Y is from Northwestern. This is precisely the problem with the most recent round of NLJ250 numbers - the percentage of offers made to summers was uncharacteristically low. However, in summer 2010, the firm likely didn't even hire summer X from BC. So we are likely to see a larger percentage decrease for the T20s/30s vs. the T14s because firms went back to more traditional hiring methods (i.e., they didn't need to dip as low into the T20s/T30s).

Specifically on to BC, I would expect to see around 1/3 (probably slightly less in the next round of statistics) getting biglaw. That has been tradition pre boom and it will revert to that post ITE (which many firms are now in). Another 5% or so are getting clerkships and many of these students would have gotten biglaw had they wanted it. However, BC also does well with small NE law. These salaries are NOT 30k to 60k - Boston is a major city and it has a high COL. It is more likely that students that strike out at biglaw are going for jobs that pay 70k to 100k. But BC students not in biglaw are not making 30k on average. That is just absurd.

[FiveSermon]

WTF? So if you graduated pre ITE then you're useless and if you are a 2L then you're useless...so what classes, if any, have any input of value to you?

Please tell me when I said 2L's were useless. Until then I won't even read that huge wall of text.

[bk1]

Specifically on to BC, I would expect to see around 1/3 (probably slightly less in the next round of statistics) getting biglaw. That has been tradition pre boom and it will revert to that post ITE (which many firms are now in). Another 5% or so are getting clerkships and many of these students would have gotten biglaw had they wanted it. However, BC also does well with small NE law. These salaries are NOT 30k to 60k - Boston is a major city and it has a high COL. It is more likely that students that strike out at biglaw are going for jobs that pay 70k to 100k. But BC students not in biglaw are not making 30k on average. That is just absurd.

There are enough 70-100k jobs in Boston to cover most of the rest of BC/BU kids that miss out on biglaw?

[alumniguy]

Specifically on to BC, I would expect to see around 1/3 (probably slightly less in the next round of statistics) getting biglaw. That has been tradition pre boom and it will revert to that post ITE (which many firms are now in). Another 5% or so are getting clerkships and many of these students would have gotten biglaw had they wanted it. However, BC also does well with small NE law. These salaries are NOT 30k to 60k - Boston is a major city and it has a high COL. It is more likely that students that strike out at biglaw are going for jobs that pay 70k to 100k. But BC students not in biglaw are not making 30k on average. That is just absurd.

There are enough 70-100k jobs in Boston to cover most of the rest of BC/BU kids that miss out on biglaw?

I am not sure of most, but many, yes. Let me ask you - would you take a job that pays 30k if it was the only legal job you could find? I certainly wouldn't. I would be looking for the highest paying job I could find and there are plenty of non-legal jobs that pay more than 30k.

[bk1]

I am not sure of most, but many, yes. Let me ask you - would you take a job that pays 30k if it was the only legal job you could find? I certainly wouldn't. I would be looking for the highest paying job I could find and there are plenty of non-legal jobs that pay more than 30k.

I question whether these significantly more than 30k non-legal entry level jobs necessarily exist for the average below median law grad who has no work experience outside of summer.

When the unemployment rate for recent college graduates is something like 20%, I'm not so sure it is as easy as you make it seem.

[alumniguy]

30k is roughly $15/hr. I have a hard time believing that someone with an UG degree and a JD can't find a job that pays more than $15/hr.

Perhaps I am too far removed from the plight of current students, but it just seems dubious to me. This year's class - 2011 - has had it the worst. Firms have dramatically improved hiring for the 2012 class and all indications are that class of 2013 will be better than 2012. But class of 2011 is NOT the benchmark class. Perhaps it sets a floor, but it isn't representative of the job market that 0Ls are likely to face.

[bk1]

30k is roughly $15/hr. I have a hard time believing that someone with an UG degree and a JD can't find a job that pays more than $15/hr.

Perhaps I am too far removed from the plight of current students, but it just seems dubious to me. This year's class - 2011 - has had it the worst. Firms have dramatically improved hiring for the 2012 class and all indications are that class of 2013 will be better than 2012. But class of 2011 is NOT the benchmark class. Perhaps it sets a floor, but it isn't representative of the job market that 0Ls are likely to face.

Well I know plenty of people decent state school UG's with at least average grades (in "useless" majors) haven't found it that easy to find a job that pays $15-20/hr (as I noted above about 20% of college grads can't find any job). I feel like the jobs that would have been available to these kids normally are now going to people with more work experience who got laid off previously.

Maybe I'm wrong but someone I just don't see a JD helping that same person significantly for nonlegal jobs. If anything wouldn't it scare employers away considering they would question whether the employee would actually stick around?

[alumniguy]

Well I know plenty of people decent state school UG's with at least average grades (in "useless" majors) haven't found it that easy to find a job that pays $15-20/hr (as I noted above about 20% of college grads can't find any job). I feel like the jobs that would have been available to these kids normally are now going to people with more work experience who got laid off previously.

Maybe I'm wrong but someone I just don't see a JD helping that same person significantly for nonlegal jobs. If anything wouldn't it scare employers away considering they would question whether the employee would actually stick around?

Here is the problem with the way law schools report salary statistics - there is simply no way for either of us to back up these assertions. My point remains - Boston is an expensive, high COL city. I would guess that most waitresses make $15 an hour, let alone a college graduate. Regardless, I have a hard time accepting that BC students that strike out at making 160k are making 30k to 60k. I am willing to grant that some percentage of the class is making this low salary, but 66% just seems a bit high for me to accept.

A JD isn't going to help you get an entry level non-legal job, but it won't hurt in the majority of cases - especially not when everyone knows how bad employment prospects are in general these days.

[bk1]

Here is the problem with the way law schools report salary statistics - there is simply no way for either of us to back up these assertions. My point remains - Boston is an expensive, high COL city. I would guess that most waitresses make $15 an hour, let alone a college graduate. Regardless, I have a hard time accepting that BC students that strike out at making 160k are making 30k to 60k. I am willing to grant that some percentage of the class is making this low salary, but 66% just seems a bit high for me to accept.

Maybe things are distorted in my view because of how much worse CA's economy is, but coming from a high CoL city myself (SF), things are really not that rosy considering how hard it is to find employment generally. Though I will add that waiting tables in SF is pretty damn good considering you are guaranteed minimum wage before tips (so $10/hour plus tips... kaching!).

The college grads I know have definitely had it pretty damn hard.

[droges]

I think it is safe to assume the Boston economy is healthy and headed in the right direction. i dont know if the same is true for the legal market, but based on personal experience people are hiring. I graduated from undergrad in Boston this past December and found a job by the end of January which pays a salary in the range you specified (30-60k). Now, I know this is only one piece of anecdotal evidence, but this is why I find it hard to believe that a large proportion of the BC class is making 30-60k.

[zonto]

I think your findings are supported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Here is a graph of Middlesex County (Newton/BC) and Suffolk County (Boston) compared to the United States average unemployment rate:

linky

[BCLS Alum]

I find it interesting that there are a number of 0Ls talking about employment ITE. The ITE theme was justified for the classes of 2009-2010, maybe 2011. But if you ask current lawyers, hiring practices at the major law firms has normalized and I don't imagine it is going to tank all over again anytime soon. That is a risk any law student is going to have to take (see Class of 2009), but given current legal demands and the boom in hiring going on in Biglaw right now, I don't see it happening in the next three years. Most firm's summer associate classes are back to pre-ITE numbers for this summer.

If anything, you guys are going in during an upward swing, and at a pretty decent spot in that upward swing.

[jarofsoup]

I don't have to think the majority of BC's class makes 6 figures to also hold that its not the case that I will like make 30-60k

The most likely scenario for a BC grad is making 30-60k. What makes you think you can bunk that trend so easily?

BC places 33% in NLJ 250. Better than Wash U, Vanderbilt, U Texas and USC, and on par with UCLA. This kid doesn't even know things.

In order for biglaw to be likely, or more probable than not, you'd have to go to Penn, Columbia, Cornell or Chicago.

I should have said T12 and not T18, but I was being generous. BC is probably comparable to USC/UCLA these days (lol if you think that somehow UCLA and USC are different), a notch worse than Vandy, and UT I am not so sure. Of course BC is stronger than WUSTL, I don't include WUSTL in the T18.

30K is a little low, but there are multiple articles out there how the "big law entry salaries" do not exist anymore for most people. I think doc review you can make over 30k, but you work a ton of overtime with doc review(like 7 hours a day).

I think coming out of a law school and starting at 80-100k would be a positive thing for me.

As far as serial posters go I am guessing that mine is primarily motivated by bordom

[jpSartre]

Update BU vs BC at equal CoA...

[Blindmelon]

Update BU vs BC at equal CoA...

BU 2L here. The BU/BC debate is largely splitting hairs. Did you visit both? They both have different feels - BU more city, BC more rural.

I have friends at BC and it seems like OCI went about the same - FWIW the big 3 seems to shape up like they always do - Goodwin BU heavy, Ropes BC heavy, Wilmer tied.

Discrepancies in placement are probably due to self-selection - overall BC placed 3% more into bigfirms, but that could be swayed by a few people taking PI jobs in one way or another. Also, there are market-rate Boston firms that aren't NLJ 250 (think Choate Hall & Stewart which is really baller, Nutter, etc) so their #s that year were probably better. The graduating 3Ls at both got killed, destroyed, maimed, obliterated in the economy (not kidding), but this year seems to be much better. You will see more BU students at top NYC firms (we have people going to SullCrom, Cleary, Weil (sort of top)) this year, and a handful of DC biglaw people, but I believe this is probably do to the fact that BCers tend to be more gung-ho Boston so would pick a Ropes over Cleary, etc.

In short, you can't go wrong either way. Awesome scholly at both. BC's tuition is a little higher, but I think It'll only be an extra 9k so it doesn't make or break your decision. If you want to live more in the city with much easier access downtown, take BU. If you think the city is annoying/smelly and want a prettier campus with actual greenery around, take BC.

[mettasutta]

If you're ever considering PI/gov't work, BC's LRAP is superior to BU's.

[Blindmelon]

If you're ever considering PI/gov't work, BC's LRAP is superior to BU's.

Depends on the PI. If you do fed gov work, BC's LRAP does nothing. The income cap is pretty low. If you want to be a public defender or DA then its definitely a consideration.

[sullidop]

Update BU vs BC at equal CoA...

BU 2L here. The BU/BC debate is largely splitting hairs. Did you visit both? They both have different feels - BU more city, BC more rural.

I have friends at BC and it seems like OCI went about the same - FWIW the big 3 seems to shape up like they always do - Goodwin BU heavy, Ropes BC heavy, Wilmer tied.

Discrepancies in placement are probably due to self-selection - overall BC placed 3% more into bigfirms, but that could be swayed by a few people taking PI jobs in one way or another. Also, there are market-rate Boston firms that aren't NLJ 250 (think Choate Hall & Stewart which is really baller, Nutter, etc) so their #s that year were probably better. The graduating 3Ls at both got killed, destroyed, maimed, obliterated in the economy (not kidding), but this year seems to be much better. You will see more BU students at top NYC firms (we have people going to SullCrom, Cleary, Weil (sort of top)) this year, and a handful of DC biglaw people, but I believe this is probably do to the fact that BCers tend to be more gung-ho Boston so would pick a Ropes over Cleary, etc.

In short, you can't go wrong either way. Awesome scholly at both. BC's tuition is a little higher, but I think It'll only be an extra 9k so it doesn't make or break your decision. If you want to live more in the city with much easier access downtown, take BU. If you think the city is annoying/smelly and want a prettier campus with actual greenery around, take BC.

+1 Unfortunately it's too late to take a class at BC/BU. Visit anyway and get a feel for both schools. They're similar on paper but very different in reality.

[Cupidity]

Yeah this is a kulturkampf. What kind of music do you listen to, what is your ideal party scene, are you afraid of heights?

[ndirish2010]

BC is always better than BU. Just because.

[alumniguy]

Update BU vs BC at equal CoA...

BU 2L here. The BU/BC debate is largely splitting hairs. Did you visit both? They both have different feels - BU more city, BC more rural.

I have friends at BC and it seems like OCI went about the same - FWIW the big 3 seems to shape up like they always do - Goodwin BU heavy, Ropes BC heavy, Wilmer tied.

Discrepancies in placement are probably due to self-selection - overall BC placed 3% more into bigfirms, but that could be swayed by a few people taking PI jobs in one way or another. Also, there are market-rate Boston firms that aren't NLJ 250 (think Choate Hall & Stewart which is really baller, Nutter, etc) so their #s that year were probably better. The graduating 3Ls at both got killed, destroyed, maimed, obliterated in the economy (not kidding), but this year seems to be much better. You will see more BU students at top NYC firms (we have people going to SullCrom, Cleary, Weil (sort of top)) this year, and a handful of DC biglaw people, but I believe this is probably do to the fact that BCers tend to be more gung-ho Boston so would pick a Ropes over Cleary, etc.

In short, you can't go wrong either way. Awesome scholly at both. BC's tuition is a little higher, but I think It'll only be an extra 9k so it doesn't make or break your decision. If you want to live more in the city with much easier access downtown, take BU. If you think the city is annoying/smelly and want a prettier campus with actual greenery around, take BC.

I don't want to re-ignite the BU/BC wars, but the geographical information in just not accurate.

BC is not rural. Of course BU is geographically closer to Boston proper, but non-academic/school life for the vast majority of both BC/BU students will be 90% equal. Most law school students at both schools live in Alston/Brighton and have equal access to the city. The fact of the matter is that from 9am to 6-7pm, most law school students are attending classes/studying. But at nights and on weekends, students from both BC/BU are doing the exact same things in the city - going to the bars on Harvard Ave/eating in Back Bay and South End/shopping on Newbury Street/etc.

I do agree that the schools have very different feels. Further, visiting the schools is likely the only way to get a sense of which school a prospective student would prefer.

Employment options (at least for biglaw) are the same at each school - and any preference for certain top firms is undoubtedly self-selection. No entering 0L should think that they are definitively going to be one of the limited students that has a decent shot at certain top firms.

Again, it is all about fit/money between these two schools.

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

I'd go with Boston College at equal cost.