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NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:41 pm
by splitmuch
NW at sticker or WUSTL with the 28 thousand a year?
I want to do gov, but I am very interested in DOJ Honors which I understand is extremely competitive and would be interested in clerkship. I do vastly prefer Chicago to St Louis for a number of reasons. Essentially my heart wants NW but my head is telling me that may be stupid
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:11 pm
by splitmuch
Shameless bump, any insight especially WRT to DOJ Honors would be appreciated.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:16 pm
by crit_racer
GO FOR GOLD!! What's another 96k? You only live once.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:20 pm
by bdubs
You're going to be in $100k+ of debt at either one, if you don't do well at WUSTL you will have a hard time NU will give you a little more cushion even if the debt payments are larger.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:22 pm
by jonillson
bdubs wrote:You're going to be in $100k+ of debt at either one, if you don't do well at WUSTL you will have a hard time NU will give you a little more cushion even if the debt payments are larger double.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:22 pm
by Hannibal
I would have said WUSTL if you didn't have your sights on prestigious employment and Chicago specifically.
Also lol at "what's another 100k." It's one hundred thousand dollars.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:24 pm
by bdubs
Hannibal wrote:I would have said WUSTL if you didn't have your sights on prestigious employment and Chicago specifically.
Also lol at "what's another 100k." It's one hundred thousand dollars.
If it means falling on the left or right node of the distribution that $100k is going to seem small.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:26 pm
by Hannibal
bdubs wrote:Hannibal wrote:I would have said WUSTL if you didn't have your sights on prestigious employment and Chicago specifically.
Also lol at "what's another 100k." It's one hundred thousand dollars.
If it means falling on the left or right node of the distribution that $100k is going to seem small.
That is starting salary. Also NU does not guarantee biglaw. Also WUSTL does not eliminate the possibility of biglaw. And most people stay in biglaw under four years. So basically if you make biglaw at WUSTL with 100k in debt, you are way richer than NU with 200k debt. If you make it into that section where you would have gotten biglaw and NU and instead get 60k out of WUSTL, that makes a difference for the time you are in biglaw. If you're in the position where you'd make money in the lower section regardless, you'd be more free at WUSTL. The number of people who are unemployed in WUSTL over unemployed at NU is also very small.
Also, class of 2006.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:29 pm
by bdubs
Hannibal wrote:That is starting salary. Also NU does not guarantee biglaw. Also WUSTL does not eliminate the possibility of biglaw. And most people stay in biglaw under four years.
I didn't say it did. I just think it would be hard to pay off the $100k+ of debt from WUSTL if you miss the biglaw boat. Chances of doing that from WUSTL are significantly larger than from NU.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:31 pm
by Hannibal
bdubs wrote:Hannibal wrote:That is starting salary. Also NU does not guarantee biglaw. Also WUSTL does not eliminate the possibility of biglaw. And most people stay in biglaw under four years.
I didn't say it did. I just think it would be hard to pay off the $100k+ of debt from WUSTL if you miss the biglaw boat. Chances of doing that from WUSTL are significantly larger than from NU.
No it wouldn't. If you can't pay off $1.25k/month (ten year repayment schedule) on 40-60k in the midwest (starting), your standards of living are a little high for someone right out of school.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:34 pm
by Hannibal
Put it this way; if you make biglaw at both, and follow the ten year repayment schedule, if you put the money you would have spent on NU loans into an education trust, by the tenth year you've virtually paid for your kid's college. Never sneeze at 100k.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:36 pm
by cubswin
If you want Chicago, I think NU is a wiser move. I've heard a lot of stories about WUSTL grads having trouble getting jobs in Chicago in the last few years.
FWIW I was in a similar situation to yours and chose NU.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:37 pm
by cubswin
Hannibal wrote:Put it this way; if you make biglaw at both, and follow the ten year repayment schedule, if you put the money you would have spent on NU loans into an education trust, by the tenth year you've virtually paid for your kid's college. Never sneeze at 100k.
If.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:37 pm
by bdubs
Hannibal wrote:Put it this way; if you make biglaw at both, and follow the ten year repayment schedule, if you put the money you would have spent on NU loans into an education trust, by the tenth year you've virtually paid for your kid's college. Never sneeze at 100k.
No, but people treat the debt differences as a safety net when they aren't. If you just have any old undergrad degree you can make 40-60k per year without taking out 100k+ in law school loans.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:38 pm
by Hannibal
cubswin wrote:Hannibal wrote:Put it this way; if you make biglaw at both, and follow the ten year repayment schedule, if you put the money you would have spent on NU loans into an education trust, by the tenth year you've virtually paid for your kid's college. Never sneeze at 100k.
If.
Yeah, the point is that you should seriously question whether a 20% better chance at biglaw is worth 100k+ in loans.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:39 pm
by Hannibal
bdubs wrote:Hannibal wrote:Put it this way; if you make biglaw at both, and follow the ten year repayment schedule, if you put the money you would have spent on NU loans into an education trust, by the tenth year you've virtually paid for your kid's college. Never sneeze at 100k.
No, but people treat the debt differences as a safety net when they aren't. If you just have any old undergrad degree you can make 40-60k per year without taking out 100k+ in law school loans.
If that were true, law schools wouldn't be flooded with people with BAs and bad jobs.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:40 pm
by bdubs
Hannibal wrote:cubswin wrote:Hannibal wrote:Put it this way; if you make biglaw at both, and follow the ten year repayment schedule, if you put the money you would have spent on NU loans into an education trust, by the tenth year you've virtually paid for your kid's college. Never sneeze at 100k.
If.
Yeah, the point is that you should seriously question whether a 20% better chance at biglaw is worth 100k+ in loans.
It's more like a 50% better chance.
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162
Also, OP isn't interested in biglaw, he wants DOJ Honors or clerkship. Those are both going to be a challenge from either school, but I think NU would give him a serious leg up and a good LRAP.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:42 pm
by WhirledWorld
.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:43 pm
by Stringer Bell
NU. 100k is a ton of money, but you only get one shot at your first legal job.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:46 pm
by cubswin
bdubs wrote:
Also, OP isn't interested in biglaw, he wants DOJ Honors or clerkship. Those are both going to be a challenge from either school, but I think NU would give him a serious leg up and a good LRAP.
I kind of skipped over that part at the beginning and read mostly responses. Some people get good government jobs out of NU, but its clerkship placement seems like it kind of sucks. If you're sure you want to clerk, I don't know if NU is your best bet. Though I don't know how it compares to WUSTL in that department either.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:53 pm
by splitmuch
cubswin wrote:bdubs wrote:
Also, OP isn't interested in biglaw, he wants DOJ Honors or clerkship. Those are both going to be a challenge from either school, but I think NU would give him a serious leg up and a good LRAP.
I kind of skipped over that part at the beginning and read mostly responses. Some people get good government jobs out of NU, but its clerkship placement seems like it kind of sucks. If you're sure you want to clerk, I don't know if NU is your best bet. Though I don't know how it compares to WUSTL in that department either.
I've read that that is mostly self selection, which could be spin but makese sense given the WE heavy classes and, in 07 at least, 3 NU alums got SCOTUS clerkships (according to the TLS write up)
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:54 pm
by bdubs
cubswin wrote:bdubs wrote:
Also, OP isn't interested in biglaw, he wants DOJ Honors or clerkship. Those are both going to be a challenge from either school, but I think NU would give him a serious leg up and a good LRAP.
I kind of skipped over that part at the beginning and read mostly responses. Some people get good government jobs out of NU, but its clerkship placement seems like it kind of sucks. If you're sure you want to clerk, I don't know if NU is your best bet. Though I don't know how it compares to WUSTL in that department either.
Not sure where you got that info. NU does about as well as its peer schools in clerkship placement. It also does significantly better than WUSTL in Article III placements.
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:57 pm
by Hannibal
bdubs wrote:
It's more like a 50% better chance.
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162
Also, OP isn't interested in biglaw, he wants DOJ Honors or clerkship. Those are both going to be a challenge from either school, but I think NU would give him a serious leg up and a good LRAP.
You did see that NU placed 44% into NLJ250 jobs? That only makes sense if WUSTL had -6% placement, and you didn't include regional biglaw not in the NLJ250 rankigns.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:57 pm
by Stringer Bell
WhirledWorld wrote:If you want to do government, go for WUSTL. It doesn't make a lot of sense to borrow 6 figures of debt (and the interest that accumulates on it) when you're looking at a 50k salary.
If you only make 50k working for the government you are going to need to use IBR/LRAP whether you owe 114k or 210k. You may as well go to the school that is going to give you a better shot at landing the job.
Re: NW vs WUSTL $$
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:58 pm
by bk1
Best choice for any employment in Chicago: NU (by a mile)
Best choice for DoJ: NU (by a decent, albeit small, margin)
Best choice for avoiding soulcrushing debt: WUSTL (by a mile)
I think the rational choice here is WUSTL. If you miss out on PI or biglaw and end up taking a small firm job (which has a very decent chance of happening at NU), you will have soulcrushing debt payments for 20-30 if you're taking on 200k+. If you end up at a small firm with your WUSTL debt, you have the very real option of being debt free in 10 years.
That said, getting Chicago specifically will be a struggle out of WUSTL (doable, but still hard), as will the DoJ (but the DoJ will be almost as tough out of NU). So decide whether another decade or two of loan repayments are worth staying in Chicago for you.
Personally I think avoiding the extra loan payments is the rational choice. However, I think I would make an irrational decision and choose NU if I were faced with the choice myself because my desire to be in the place I want to be would trump going to a regional school that didn't primarily place in that area.