Suffolk or William Mitchell?? Forum

[firemed]

Can't wait until the bars start denying people bar admission for excessive debt.

Won't happen. Even some T14 grads are coming out with numbers like that these days. Can you really see them saying "Hey, we know you graduated Yale, clerked for Justice Scalia, and have a job offer at the best firm in the state, but we totes can't admit you to the bar despite the fact that you aced the exam because you have $300K in debt combined from UG and LS. Peace out, yo."

http://minnlawyer.com/jdr/2011/01/26/ba ... hool-debt/

Wow. I stand corrected. Also flabbergasted.

I also stand incredibly glad that I got some scholarships. Wow.


ETA: also, as the article mentions, I don't think the people denying his application had any real idea of the current market.

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

Can't wait until the bars start denying people bar admission for excessive debt. [/quote]
[/quote]


Won't happen. Even some T14 grads are coming out with numbers like that these days. Can you really see them saying "Hey, we know you graduated Yale, clerked for Justice Scalia, and have a job offer at the best firm in the state, but we totes can't admit you to the bar despite the fact that you aced the exam because you have $300K in debt combined from UG and LS. Peace out, yo."[/quote]

One thing is to look at the aforementioned case, who will probably have his debt paid off with a couple of bonuses-

Another is to look at a guy who will make the equivalent to said bonus through 5 years of work.[/quote]

You know nothing about bonuses at Minnesota law firms. No one is getting a $20k bonus, even at the largest Minnesota firms. lol.

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

+1. I'm just sick of hearing these same old tired arguments. The majority of 3Ls at my T20 don't have jobs lined up for post-graduation yet (although I'm confident many of them will get them after passing the bar). But if T20 students aren't getting jobs, how do you think you're going to fare at WM or Suffolk?

Oh wait, I forgot about that magic ace up the sleeve... NETWORKING! And since no one at T14s tries to network, that leaves T2/3/4 students with all the networking opportunities.

TBF, your T20 is WUSTL...

Oh zing!

Yes, I go to WUSTL, a school that in good years placed almost 1/3 of its class into NLJ + clerkships, and plenty more into respectable plaintiffs firms, solid PI and good government jobs. We've never been a national power, but we were still placing the vast majority of our classes into good jobs just a few years ago. That should give you an idea of just how bad the economy is right now. I wouldn't tell anyone to go to most T14s at sticker (or WUSTL at sticker), so you can bet your ass I think it is a HORRIBLE idea to go to either of these schools at sticker.

Buddy, a school that places only a third of its class into NLJ250 AND clerkships is not something you should be bragging about. Those are T2 stats, hardly something a school that claims to be a top 30 school should be emphasizing. lol.

[ResolutePear]

You know nothing about bonuses at Minnesota law firms. No one is getting a $20k bonus, even at the largest Minnesota firms. lol.

If you clerked for SCOTUS..

You're not working for a Minn. firm. (LOL.)

[ResolutePear]

Those are T2 stats

Okay, I'm interested. Show me some stats on this plz.

[alumniguy]

You know nothing about bonuses at Minnesota law firms. No one is getting a $20k bonus, even at the largest Minnesota firms. lol.

If you clerked for SCOTUS..

You're not working for a Minn. firm. (LOL.)

Yea, because SCOTUS so routinely hires from MN law schools that this is a realistic option any 0L should be considering (let alone a student attending WM).

Firms outside of NYC and the major markets typically don't pay the same bonuses. You're lucky to get $5k.

Moreover, there is serious salary compression outside of major markets. I think Dorsey Whitney/Faegre start at 110k and max out around 150k as a senior associate compared with NYC biglaw starting at 160k and max out around 280 as a senior associate. both of these amounts are base only. Many other middle markets top out under 200k even if they start at 160k (i.e., see Texas firms).

But I would guess that most 0Ls didn't know this and only bother to research the starting salary amounts thinking that if the starting salary is the same, the entire salary structure must be the same.

[ResolutePear]

You know nothing about bonuses at Minnesota law firms. No one is getting a $20k bonus, even at the largest Minnesota firms. lol.

If you clerked for SCOTUS..

You're not working for a Minn. firm. (LOL.)

Yea, because SCOTUS so routinely hires from MN law schools that this is a realistic option any 0L should be considering (let alone a student attending WM).

Firms outside of NYC and the major markets typically don't pay the same bonuses. You're lucky to get $5k.

Moreover, there is serious salary compression outside of major markets. I think Dorsey Whitney/Faegre start at 110k and max out around 150k as a senior associate compared with NYC biglaw starting at 160k and max out around 280 as a senior associate. both of these amounts are base only. Many other middle markets top out under 200k even if they start at 160k (i.e., see Texas firms).

But I would guess that most 0Ls didn't know this and only bother to research the starting salary amounts thinking that if the starting salary is the same, the entire salary structure must be the same.

Totally agree. Just going with the aforementioned hypo presented.

[romothesavior]

Buddy, a school that places only a third of its class into NLJ250 AND clerkships is not something you should be bragging about. Those are T2 stats, hardly something a school that claims to be a top 30 school should be emphasizing. lol.

Wow dude. First of all, I wasn't bragging. I say negative stuff about my school all the time, and I actually think our NLJ placement is a weakness, not a strength. This thread isn't even about WUSTL, and I regret bringing it up. My entire point of bringing it up was to show that even T1 schools are in dire straits right now, so how does anyone expect a T3/4 in a small, oversaturated market is going to place well? That was my point. This thread isn't the WUSTL NLJ 250 discussion thread.

Second of all, LOLOLOLOL. You have no idea what you are talking about. Please point me to a T2 that placed anywhere near a third of their class into NLJ + clerkships, even during the boom (and legitimate Art. III, Art. I, and respectable state appellate clerkships, not traffic court clerkships or any of that B.S.). Hell, a lot of T1 schools barely placed over 10% pre-ITE, and you're telling me that the average T2 was or is placing 1/3 of the class into those kind of jobs? What fantasy land are you living in?

[always206]

I'm having difficulty deciding between these two schools. Obviously the market is very different since they are in completely different areas of the country. However, they are my best options right now, and I'm hoping to transfer up somewhere else after 1L. (I know this could be difficult, but it could at least be worth a shot after seeing how well I do.)

I've heard that it's easier to move around a degree from the Northeast than one from any other area of the country. I'm fairly certain both of these schools are regional schools, Boston and Minneapolis respectively, and I'm not too tied to one area over the other. Minneapolis is colder for sure, but has the added benefit of a lower cost of living (to help ease debt a little bit) and I have a lot of friends in the area for a stronger support base and help getting around the area. I feel like Suffolk might be the better law school, but Boston has such a high cost of living. I am originally from Washington DC and currently live in NJ, so either way I would be moving away from my home(s). I have a strong interest in Environmental or International Human Rights Law, but that could obviously change once I get to school.

Any advice about the culture/employment statistics, etc of each school would be lots of help! I haven't heard financial aid awards yet, and that could make or break my decision. I'm also still waiting to hear from a few other law schools. Most likely I won't get into them, but still holding out a slight inkling of hope regardless. I have a few other acceptances (Hamline $$, New England $$, John Marshall - Chicago, Duquesne) and a couple waitlists (Rutgers-Camden and UBaltimore). Thoughts??

We are in a similar situation. I was accepted to Hamline, St. Thomas, and wait-listed at William Mitchell. Yesterday I finally got off of the WL. Also, I am WL'ed at Baltimore right now.

Here's a THOROUGH salary report provided by William Mitchell. You must admit, not every school is willing to release this much information!

http://www.wmitchell.edu/careers/servic ... ports.html

Honestly, from what I've read, WM isn't a bad choice at all for MN. I turned St. Thomas down because of the employment statistics, or lack thereof. WM has amazing clinical programs which sealed the deal for me. PM if you wanna talk more about it.

[aliarrow]

I'm having difficulty deciding between these two schools. Obviously the market is very different since they are in completely different areas of the country. However, they are my best options right now, and I'm hoping to transfer up somewhere else after 1L. (I know this could be difficult, but it could at least be worth a shot after seeing how well I do.)

I've heard that it's easier to move around a degree from the Northeast than one from any other area of the country. I'm fairly certain both of these schools are regional schools, Boston and Minneapolis respectively, and I'm not too tied to one area over the other. Minneapolis is colder for sure, but has the added benefit of a lower cost of living (to help ease debt a little bit) and I have a lot of friends in the area for a stronger support base and help getting around the area. I feel like Suffolk might be the better law school, but Boston has such a high cost of living. I am originally from Washington DC and currently live in NJ, so either way I would be moving away from my home(s). I have a strong interest in Environmental or International Human Rights Law, but that could obviously change once I get to school.

Any advice about the culture/employment statistics, etc of each school would be lots of help! I haven't heard financial aid awards yet, and that could make or break my decision. I'm also still waiting to hear from a few other law schools. Most likely I won't get into them, but still holding out a slight inkling of hope regardless. I have a few other acceptances (Hamline $$, New England $$, John Marshall - Chicago, Duquesne) and a couple waitlists (Rutgers-Camden and UBaltimore). Thoughts??

We are in a similar situation. I was accepted to Hamline, St. Thomas, and wait-listed at William Mitchell. Yesterday I finally got off of the WL. Also, I am WL'ed at Baltimore right now.

Here's a THOROUGH salary report provided by William Mitchell. You must admit, not every school is willing to release this much information!

http://www.wmitchell.edu/careers/servic ... ports.html

Honestly, from what I've read, WM isn't a bad choice at all for MN. I turned St. Thomas down because of the employment statistics, or lack thereof. WM has amazing clinical programs which sealed the deal for me. PM if you wanna talk more about it.

This isn't that different aside from them actually giving exact #s reporting salary data for each type (which is helpful). But a 19 in 480 chance of getting a job that can pay off all of your debt isn't a great idea...

[alumniguy]

Here's a THOROUGH salary report provided by William Mitchell. You must admit, not every school is willing to release this much information!

http://www.wmitchell.edu/careers/servic ... ports.html

Honestly, from what I've read, WM isn't a bad choice at all for MN. I turned St. Thomas down because of the employment statistics, or lack thereof. WM has amazing clinical programs which sealed the deal for me. PM if you wanna talk more about it.

It certainly is thorough - pretty depressing though, too. If you're willing to go into massive debt to make under $60k, I say go for it. It isn't a bad choice at all (sarcasm).

Edit: Also find it interesting that only 176 of the 281 grads provided salary information. I just don't understand how that works - the grad fills out the survey indicating a job, but then doesn't say the salary? Sounds fishy. I'd guess it is because these 100+ grads are at jobs with truly awful salaries, well we should be honest and say wages because they are most likely paid by the hour.

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

On WM and Minn generally:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=146346

[observationalist]

Here's a THOROUGH salary report provided by William Mitchell. You must admit, not every school is willing to release this much information!

http://www.wmitchell.edu/careers/servic ... ports.html

Honestly, from what I've read, WM isn't a bad choice at all for MN. I turned St. Thomas down because of the employment statistics, or lack thereof. WM has amazing clinical programs which sealed the deal for me. PM if you wanna talk more about it.

It certainly is thorough - pretty depressing though, too. If you're willing to go into massive debt to make under $60k, I say go for it. It isn't a bad choice at all (sarcasm).

Edit: Also find it interesting that only 176 of the 281 grads provided salary information. I just don't understand how that works - the grad fills out the survey indicating a job, but then doesn't say the salary? Sounds fishy. I'd guess it is because these 100+ grads are at jobs with truly awful salaries, well we should be honest and say wages because they are most likely paid by the hour.

This is actually pretty thorough among the schools that don't publish disaggregated data... this is essentially the NALP survey made available. It's unfortunate that the salary statistics aren't presented in terms of the percentage who reported, because applicants will look at those medians without realizing only half the class reported salaries.

What applicants should be asking for are these same data for the Class of 2010. Remember that 2009 was the best year on record, and that 2010 numbers are going to be significantly down from 2009. The school just submitted all of this information to NALP last month. NALP is in the process of scrubbing the data and typically returns the individual school reports to schools in June. If nothing else the school should be able to provide you with some draft statistics now, and then confirm once NALP gets everything back to them in June.

[aliarrow]

What I find particularly upsetting is the relatively small amount of memes in a thread with of this type with 7 pages. It looks like Nightrunner scared off everyone.

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

So only 4 or 5 people get biglaw from WM, by their own account? That is pretty horrible.

[FiveSermon]

+1. I'm just sick of hearing these same old tired arguments. The majority of 3Ls at my T20 don't have jobs lined up for post-graduation yet (although I'm confident many of them will get them after passing the bar). But if T20 students aren't getting jobs, how do you think you're going to fare at WM or Suffolk?

Oh wait, I forgot about that magic ace up the sleeve... NETWORKING! And since no one at T14s tries to network, that leaves T2/3/4 students with all the networking opportunities.

TBF, your T20 is WUSTL...

Oh zing!

Yes, I go to WUSTL, a school that in good years placed almost 1/3 of its class into NLJ + clerkships, and plenty more into respectable plaintiffs firms, solid PI and good government jobs. We've never been a national power, but we were still placing the vast majority of our classes into good jobs just a few years ago. That should give you an idea of just how bad the economy is right now. I wouldn't tell anyone to go to most T14s at sticker (or WUSTL at sticker), so you can bet your ass I think it is a HORRIBLE idea to go to either of these schools at sticker.

Buddy, a school that places only a third of its class into NLJ250 AND clerkships is not something you should be bragging about. Those are T2 stats, hardly something a school that claims to be a top 30 school should be emphasizing. lol.

T20 and T30 are not meaningful distinctions. Once you drop past maybe the T17 it's all a crapshoot.

[alumniguy]

T20 and T30 are not meaningful distinctions. Once you drop past maybe the T17 it's all a crapshoot.

Do you really believe what you just wrote? The T17 concept is very overhyped - Texas, Vandy and USC are no different than the other T20/T30 - and in fact, these three schools did worse than BC/BU in the latest NJL250 placement study. I am not suggesting an re-working of the rankings, I'm merely pointing out that USNews IS NOT AN METRIC THAT TRANSLATES INTO JOB OPPORTUNITIES. It is a ranking of many additional factors - some of which are useless in the grand scheme of job prospects (library size anyone?).

[aliarrow]

T20 and T30 are not meaningful distinctions. Once you drop past maybe the T17 it's all a crapshoot.

What does this even mean?
There is a meaningful distinction in the sense that the group of strong-ish T30s have better prospects than schools not in their peer group.

HYS

Other T14

Intermediaries
(Vandy, UCLA, USC, UT, GULC)

The T30 Major Market Tier Group
(GW, Fordham, BU, BC, WUSTL, Emory)

Strong Publics near a semi-major market
(UIUC, UMN, IU-B)

Flagships

Other T100 in a non-super saturated Market
(ie Temple)

T100 in a super-saturated/competitive market
(Loyola-LA, Kent, Cardozo)

Other

Each grouping has very similar employment properties within that grouping. So to say everything after T17 is a wash is inaccurate and overly simplistic.

[Mark71121]

i havent rly posted on this site in like a year or so, but feel compelled to say a few things to those considering retard schools.

#1: i dont think u ppl realize just how poor job prospects are out of shit schools (non t14s and flagship-type schools in tertiary cities). the employment data provided does NOT provide an accurate picture of what's in store for u upon graduation. every time i see a link to a school's employment data i cringe. in reality, there's about a 2% chance u get biglaw, 50% chance u get some shit job paying 40k-60k and a 48% chance ur unemployed or working at starbucks or something.


#2: don't count on crushing ur competition at a retard school because ur probably not much smarter than they are. yes, these schools often place 2 or 3 ppl at real jobs. guess what, there's a 98% or 97% chance that it isn't gonna be u. if ur not one of the lucky handful, ur basically done for. nobody cares if ur in the top 5% or 10%. if u put a bunch of ppl who get a 150 on the LSAT in a school, of course 10% of them are gonna end up in the top 10%. good job-- ur king of shit mountain. nobody thinks ur impressive and employers will take the median guy at MVP over u in a heartbeat.

#3: i'm a 3L. i'm at a t14. i'm on law review. i have a significant scholarship to my t14 (>1/2 tuition). i have a biglaw job. things worked out for me very well. but guess what! IF I HAD THE CHOICE TO DO IT AGAIN, I WOULDNT GO. EVEN AT MY SCHOOL, THE ODDS ARE SO FUCKING STACKED AGAINST YOU. YOURE BASICALLY FLIPPING A COIN AND BETTING UR LIFE. when you factor in opportunity cost and loan interest law school -- even good schools -- are minus EV (expected value).

[Always Credited]

i havent rly posted on this site in like a year or so, but feel compelled to say a few things to those considering retard schools.

#1: i dont think u ppl realize just how poor (non t14s and flagship-type schools in tertiary cities) job prospects are out of shit schools (non t14s and flagship-type schools in tertiary cities). the employment data provided does NOT provide an accurate picture of what's in store for u upon graduation. every time i see a link to a school's employment data i cringe. in reality, there's about a 2% chance u get biglaw, 50% chance u get some shit job paying 40k-60k and a 48% chance ur unemployed or working at starbucks or something.


#2: don't count on crushing ur competition at a retard school because ur probably not much smarter than they are. yes, these schools often place 2 or 3 ppl at real jobs. guess what, there's a 98% or 97% chance that it isn't gonna be u. if ur not one of the lucky handful, ur basically done for. nobody cares if ur in the top 5% or 10%. if u put a bunch of ppl who get a 150 on the LSAT in a school, of course 10% of them are gonna end up in the top 10%. good job-- ur king of shit mountain. nobody thinks ur impressive and employers will take the median guy at MVP over u in a heartbeat.

#3: i'm a 3L. i'm at a t14. i'm on law review. i have a significant scholarship to my t14 (>1/2 tuition). i have a biglaw job. things worked out for me very well. but guess what! IF I HAD THE CHOICE TO DO IT AGAIN, I WOULDNT GO. EVEN AT MY SCHOOL, THE ODDS ARE SO FUCKING STACKED AGAINST YOU. YOURE BASICALLY FLIPPING A COIN AND BETTING UR LIFE. when you factor in opportunity cost and loan interest law school -- even good schools -- are minus EV (expected value).

This is why I said in another thread not to go to law school if you go in thinking of it purely as an investment, and people (0L's) freaked out. Its a bad fucking investment. Period.

But do go if you want your degree for a specific purpose, know what that purpose is, go to a school that can place you into it, and know how exactly you plan to achieve that purpose even if you do not place at the top of your class.

[MidlawMyth]

T20 and T30 are not meaningful distinctions. Once you drop past maybe the T17 it's all a crapshoot.

Do you really believe what you just wrote? The T17 concept is very overhyped - Texas, Vandy and USC are no different than the other T20/T30 - and in fact, these three schools did worse than BC/BU in the latest NJL250 placement study. I am not suggesting an re-working of the rankings, I'm merely pointing out that USNews IS NOT AN METRIC THAT TRANSLATES INTO JOB OPPORTUNITIES. It is a ranking of many additional factors - some of which are useless in the grand scheme of job prospects (library size anyone?).

Texas is a top 14 school.

[firemed]

Texas is a top 14 school.

More importantly it dominates a huge market down there. UT is probably one of the better investments out there provided you a) don't mind most likely spending the rest of career in the region, and b) you don't get into HYS.

Also, Austin is an awesome city.

[Naked Dude]

T20 and T30 are not meaningful distinctions. Once you drop past maybe the T17 it's all a crapshoot.

Do you really believe what you just wrote? The T17 concept is very overhyped - Texas, Vandy and USC are no different than the other T20/T30 - and in fact, these three schools did worse than BC/BU in the latest NJL250 placement study. I am not suggesting an re-working of the rankings, I'm merely pointing out that USNews IS NOT AN METRIC THAT TRANSLATES INTO JOB OPPORTUNITIES. It is a ranking of many additional factors - some of which are useless in the grand scheme of job prospects (library size anyone?).

Texas is a top 14 school.

Semantics.

[alumniguy]

Texas is a top 14 school.

More importantly it dominates a huge market down there. UT is probably one of the better investments out there provided you a) don't mind most likely spending the rest of career in the region, and b) you don't get into HYS.

Also, Austin is an awesome city.

Yes, it does well in Texas. Ironically, you rarely see Texas grads up in NYC. I am not saying they don't get jobs up here, but they just aren't that well represented.

You also rarely see Texas involved in these should I go to X school debates. Texas is its own beast - many people probably seek it out for its geographical location while an equal or larger number of students eliminate it from their search for its geographical location.

[BarnabeSpooge]

UT-Austin:

Upside: it owns Texas
Downside: it owns Texas