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OrdinarilySkilled wrote:

r6_philly wrote:What's a "nice" job. If we are talking 140k plus, then I would have a different assessment than $45k but one you can enjoy. Also you can work part-time 2L/3L so if you are capable of landing nice jobs, you can always find something.

I'd go with UVA, there is no need to downgrade your employment probabilities by going PT. I have a nice career going too, but I rather do it right and go FT. Same options, but I didn't even apply to PT.

85-90K (but there is not much room to go up) and i work from home.
I agree with you on "doing it right" and going full time - when I visited UVa yesterday I was mesmerized by the thought that the most important thing one might encounter during the day is being called on by a teacher. I imagine it will be hard to devote as much attention to schoolwork while maintaining a job as I would be able to going full time.

r6_philly wrote:
Did we talk yesterday? You coming to Philly this week? Let's talk and compare notes.

I too would love to keep some income, but I seriously don't want to sacrifice my 1L grades and end up being shorted by firms. Loss of $60-100k in 1L and maybe the same in 2L/3L is probably not worth the risk since we are talking about $160k+bonus after graduation. Gotta pay money to make money

If you want to hear about my reasons and my assessments, let's talk this week.

r6_philly wrote:

OrdinarilySkilled wrote:

r6_philly wrote:What's a "nice" job. If we are talking 140k plus, then I would have a different assessment than $45k but one you can enjoy. Also you can work part-time 2L/3L so if you are capable of landing nice jobs, you can always find something.

I'd go with UVA, there is no need to downgrade your employment probabilities by going PT. I have a nice career going too, but I rather do it right and go FT. Same options, but I didn't even apply to PT.

85-90K (but there is not much room to go up) and i work from home.
I agree with you on "doing it right" and going full time - when I visited UVa yesterday I was mesmerized by the thought that the most important thing one might encounter during the day is being called on by a teacher. I imagine it will be hard to devote as much attention to schoolwork while maintaining a job as I would be able to going full time.

Did we talk yesterday? You coming to Philly this week? Let's talk and compare notes.

I too would love to keep some income, but I seriously don't want to sacrifice my 1L grades and end up being shorted by firms. Loss of $60-100k in 1L and maybe the same in 2L/3L is probably not worth the risk since we are talking about $160k+bonus after graduation. Gotta pay money to make money

If you want to hear about my reasons and my assessments, let's talk this week.

OrdinarilySkilled wrote:

r6_philly wrote:
Did we talk yesterday? You coming to Philly this week? Let's talk and compare notes.

I too would love to keep some income, but I seriously don't want to sacrifice my 1L grades and end up being shorted by firms. Loss of $60-100k in 1L and maybe the same in 2L/3L is probably not worth the risk since we are talking about $160k+bonus after graduation. Gotta pay money to make money

If you want to hear about my reasons and my assessments, let's talk this week.

Sent you a pm.

Does anyone want to make the case for Penn despite being the most expensive? Is it because I said I want to work in Philly?

run26.2 wrote:

OrdinarilySkilled wrote: Does anyone want to make the case for Penn despite being the most expensive? Is it because I said I want to work in Philly?

The two are more or less peer schools, so there is little difference re: prestige or education. That is basically a wash, although some might argue that point, including a professor I had last semester who came to Penn because he thought it was a stop up. Not sure I buy it.

You should check NALP to see which Philly firms you think you are interested in go to UVA. My quick check showed that Dechert, Drinker, Duane Morris, and Cozen interview at UVA. I know a bunch of people that have offers in Philly and even more who have offers in DC, including myself. Penn students really seemed to do well in DC.

I really like Penn's campus and the ease with which one can take classes at the other schools, especially Wharton. The other thing is that Penn is fairly small and it is really easy to get to know the Profs. UVA is bigger, but I'm not sure how that affects things because I'm sure they have more faculty. Also, Penn is not in a college town. You have a fabulous art museum, major sports teams, tons of restaurants and bars in Philly, and both New York and DC are about 2-3 hours by car. There is just a lot to do in and around Philly, and I really like that.

What are the selection criteria that are important to you?

steph146 wrote:As a 1E at GULC, I had to make the almost the exact same choice as you last year (Software/Defense industry job and mortgage in DC, choosing between sticker at NYU, 75k at UVA, and GULC PT).

I definitely enjoy GULC. I love the older student body in the PT program, the professors are great and the fact that I have 8-9 hours every day where I can't think about law school was I feel a positive factor on my sanity and my grades first semester. Just as a clarification from earlier in the thread, there is no bias on the part of the school or employers between FT and PT for students taking part in OCI at GULC, so that shouldn't be a concern for you.

I would say that the work/life balance associated with PT law school and a substantive job leaves a little to be desired. Also, law school offers so many opportunities during the day (lectures, social events, etc.) that require me to take a day off work to take advantage of, so I end up missing quite a few events I would otherwise be interested in.

The PT program at GULC is changing next year, though, which will help with work/life balance but may have other consequences simply because it's new (they are reducing the number of credits 1E's take to make the program only 4 nights/week, but also effectively eliminating the ability to transfer to the full-time program).

A couple factors to consider --
--Does your job provide you with networking opportunities that could lead to legal employment?
--Do you enjoy your current job?
--At this stage in your life (e.g. having already had a 'nice' job) could you realistically see giving up the income/lifestyle your current job grants you for three years?

If GULC offered $$ to part time students, I'd think the choice tilt more heavily in their favor. As it is, it was a difficult choice for me and likely will be for you also. One question, have you considered GW? They offer $$ (I believe) for their PT program and would unquestionably be a better option than GMU if money is a concern. I wouldn't recommend GMU unless you already had a post-graduation legal job lined up at this point, and the only thing to recommend it even then given your other choices would be the fact that it was free.

OrdinarilySkilled wrote:

run26.2 wrote:

OrdinarilySkilled wrote: Does anyone want to make the case for Penn despite being the most expensive? Is it because I said I want to work in Philly?

The two are more or less peer schools, so there is little difference re: prestige or education. That is basically a wash, although some might argue that point, including a professor I had last semester who came to Penn because he thought it was a stop up. Not sure I buy it.

You should check NALP to see which Philly firms you think you are interested in go to UVA. My quick check showed that Dechert, Drinker, Duane Morris, and Cozen interview at UVA. I know a bunch of people that have offers in Philly and even more who have offers in DC, including myself. Penn students really seemed to do well in DC.

I really like Penn's campus and the ease with which one can take classes at the other schools, especially Wharton. The other thing is that Penn is fairly small and it is really easy to get to know the Profs. UVA is bigger, but I'm not sure how that affects things because I'm sure they have more faculty. Also, Penn is not in a college town. You have a fabulous art museum, major sports teams, tons of restaurants and bars in Philly, and both New York and DC are about 2-3 hours by car. There is just a lot to do in and around Philly, and I really like that.

What are the selection criteria that are important to you?

Thanks for your input. I do not have any specific criteria (other than getting me a job in IP). Penn is my number one choice schoolwise, as I am from the area, and like all of the things you listed. The one thing that is important to me is minimizing moving. At Uva my SO and I would have to move every summer and then after graduation, which is a lot. At Penn there is the potential of moving once and being done with it. The only thing really pulling me towards UVa is the price. If the ASW at penn is great, my decision is going to be even harder.

run26.2 wrote:

OrdinarilySkilled wrote:Thanks for your input. I do not have any specific criteria (other than getting me a job in IP). Penn is my number one choice schoolwise, as I am from the area, and like all of the things you listed. The one thing that is important to me is minimizing moving. At Uva my SO and I would have to move every summer and then after graduation, which is a lot. At Penn there is the potential of moving once and being done with it. The only thing really pulling me towards UVa is the price. If the ASW at penn is great, my decision is going to be even harder.

Interesting. Quality of Life issues are important. I chose Penn over NYU for those reasons, even though many people told me to take NYU. At my stage in life, I care a bit less about money. When I transferred to Penn I gave up a significant scholarship at another school. Ultimately, I believed that I would be happier to have had the educational opportunities and life experiences at Penn that I did not think were present at the other school. In that regard, it might make sense for you to choose a more expensive option, especially if you really like the Philly area and you are not very high on moving several times. Incidentally, why would you have to do this?

As far as IP goes, both schools have decent programs. I would have given UVA a slight edge, but Penn is creating an IP clinic which is unique among law schools. Students in the clinic will have the opportunity to work with inventors and developers of cutting edge technologies to provide a full spectrum of IP services. I think this gives Penn a leg up. Alternatively, if you do not do the clinic, several students have worked as interns at Penn's Office for Technology Transfer to complete their pro bono requirement. This is a great way to get practical experience, especially if you are considering going in house with a technology company.

Going back to the integration with the other schools, I think you get more opportunities to think about policy and economic issues associated with IP at Penn than you would at other schools. I base this off my experience in the classroom and my conversations with students at other schools.

Finally, if you're interested at all in moot court, Penn gives 4 credit hours for participating in the AIPLA's Giles Rich Moot Court competition. This is more credit than most other schools give, which incentivizes law students to really put time into succeeding in the competition. Penn has historically done very well in the competition, sending a couple of teams to the national competition at the Federal Circuit and winning best brief awards at the regional competition with regularity. This competition provides an excellent opportunity to develop and/or refine highly practical skills if you are interested in IP litigation.

OrdinarilySkilled wrote:Bump to get some more votes.

Nobody thinks the risk free option (GMU) is best?

paulinaporizkova wrote:taking penn over UVa when the difference is 100k because you like penn better is really really dumb IMO. i mean, do you really DISLIKE UVa that much? i'm here now - seems like a pretty fantastic place to be. the moving will be a pain but that is pretty minor when you think about the big picture


also, no one on this site would ever advise you to go to GMU over penn or UVa no matter what the price difference because you'll be benefiting career-wise for your entire life if you go to one of the latter two. the loan difference will be more than made up in the end.

ETA: i suppose the bolded isn't entirely true, but most people would say it's smarter to go to a t10 with a scholarship over anywhere else below it

vamedic03 wrote:It's not really risk free. If you choose GMU, then you'll close doors.

paulinaporizkova wrote:taking penn over UVa when the difference is 100k because you like penn better is really really dumb IMO. i mean, do you really DISLIKE UVa that much? i'm here now - seems like a pretty fantastic place to be. the moving will be a pain but that is pretty minor when you think about the big picture


also, no one on this site would ever advise you to go to GMU over penn or UVa no matter what the price difference because you'll be benefiting career-wise for your entire life if you go to one of the latter two. the loan difference will be more than made up in the end.

ETA: i suppose the bolded isn't entirely true, but most people would say it's smarter to go to a t10 with a scholarship over anywhere else below it

carrier wrote:The only doors you'll be closing by going to GMU are the doors that lead to working 80 hours with TLS-type elitists. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Anecdotally, I just skimmed over 2 big name IP firms, one national and one in Philly. GMU had partners at both; Penn and UVA had a few more at the national one and equivalent at the Philly one. Doors aren't closed, just less open. Anecdotally again, I've met IP attorneys in mid- or late-career stages who are very happy with their quality of life (and paychecks) with degrees from GMU, Maryland, and Delaware-Widener. I know anecdotes are worth nothing compared to hard statistics, but at the same time they're enough to disprove the absolutism you'll see on this board.

You already have a general career field and maybe a specific path in mind, so maybe you should not be looking at what doors get closed but just whether the ones to your chosen path are still open. You clearly aren't a directionless 22 year-old looking for any sort of use for a Philosophy degree, so it isn't just about maximizing the number and type of options after graduation.

You mention the SO, so I suspect you already have a broader view of quality of life than just $$$. How will work + part-time school affect quality of life? How will a T14 workload full-time affect it? Down the road, how will debt, higher salary opportunities, or the concurrent pressures of high salary and high debt affect it?

GULC pt seems like the ultimate hedge in this scenario. Even for Penn or UVA, cushy summer associate positions aren't a given, especially in DC, so the money earned working while in school shouldn't be dismissed as easily as some do in this thread. And you probably won't make a lot more out of the gate than your pay during years 3 and 4 (certainly shouldn't plan on it, at least).

GMU is low-risk, but I don't think the reward is necessarily low... nor all that much lower than your other options for your field. With either part-time program, you'll be graduating with what I assume to be 5+ years of experience in that closely-related field, which is nothing to sneeze at when being compared to those who graduate in 3 years w/ no work experience beyond 3 months at a time of summer work. If the chips fall right, you can even go for a summer associate job and swing it into a full time paralegal position while finishing your JD. Win-win. Or, graduating with no debt and already having your current job, you can be very selective and patient in making your next move, which is a large advantage over being desperate to start getting paid to start paying student loan bills.

I faced similar questions as you for undergrad, and decided to take on the debt and go with prestige/connections. Now as a result my only option for law school is something cheap, but I don't regret my undergrad choice. It was special and different and an accomplishment unto itself. You'll only get one chance in life to pick a law school, but for the rest of your life you can say you went to Penn Law and be a part of its network.

At a T2 ASW recently, a dean explained that she didn't think the legal field was shrinking or the need for lawyers decreasing, just that the popular and well-paying jobs are shrinking (as they inevitably had to at some point). She said what is growing is the "entrepreneurial aspect" of the profession, which has multiple implications. My takeaway was that our careers more than our predecessors' will be what we make of them. You may not just come out of school as a round peg with diploma in hand to go fill a round hole at BigLaw and go on your merry way. The determination and drive to sell your soul at a firm for a decade of 80-hour weeks can be repurposed in more creative and individual ways; certainly this is possible in IP.