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BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:46 am
by jdemmitt
I live in Utah with residency. If I go to BYU I have the mormon rate and I have free housing. Utah I have a small one time scholly, but my wife has great employment here. Wake Forest involves moving across the country and significant loan debt.
I am not sure where I want to practice. I used to live in NC and I loved it, but I wouldn't mind getting out of Utah. No decision on type of law.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:50 am
by CanadianWolf
Utah. Unless you have a wild side in need of taming, then BYU.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:52 pm
by jdemmitt
I have four years of BYU under my belt. The last thing I need is more taming.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:56 pm
by esq
If you want to practice in Utah, then go to The U. My cousin practices litigation for a firm in SLC now, went to Wake, wishes he would've gone to The U or The Y because it would have opened up way more options for him.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:01 pm
by El_Gallo
esq wrote:
If you want to practice in Utah, then go to The U. My cousin practices litigation for a firm in SLC now, went to Wake, wishes he would've gone to The U or The Y because it would have opened up way more options for him.
+1, unless you are sure that you don't want to practice in Utah or anywhere in the Rocky Mountain Range, I would follow the money. Sounds like you could graduate with relatively little debt from the U or the Y. I would personally go with the Y because of its slight increase in mobility over the U.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:20 pm
by skers
Unless you really can't stand more time in Provo, there's no question it's BYU here. The Y will leave you with around 60k less debt (from free housing and lower tuition), better placement, and better mobility with your degree to leave Utah if you want to. There's a solid BYU/LDS alumni network around the country that can help kids get jobs.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:32 pm
by esq
I agree that even though the U is similarly ranked, the Y is by far the better school as far as the opportunities it offers. But didn't the OP say thathis wife has a great job at the U? I guess the OP better figure out if that work outweighs the cost of attendance at the U compared to the Y, because the Y is certainly cheaper if you are Mormon. Can she get similar work in Provo? There's another good question to think about.
Edit: Guess I misread it. Where in Utah does your wife work OP? If you can swing BYU, do it.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:44 pm
by jdemmitt
She has a great job in Orem, and can be transferred to Slc if needed. I really want the Y. Just don't think I will get accepted.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:44 pm
by Pink
esq wrote:I agree that even though the U is similarly ranked, the Y is by far the better school as far as the opportunities it offers. But didn't the OP say thathis wife has a great job at the U? I guess the OP better figure out if that work outweighs the cost of attendance at the U compared to the Y, because the Y is certainly cheaper if you are Mormon. Can she get similar work in Provo? There's another good question to think about.
Edit: Guess I misread it. Where in Utah does your wife work OP? If you can swing BYU, do it.
The U and the Y are within commuting distance of each other, so I'd be willing to bet his wife could keep her employment regardless of which of the two he picked.
I have a great hate for the Y, so I'll say the U
But, since you don't have the great hate that I do (and you have the mormon rate), it may be a better decision.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:57 pm
by esq
Pink wrote:
The U and the Y are within commuting distance of each other, so I'd be willing to bet his wife could keep her employment regardless of which of the two he picked.
I have a great hate for the Y, so I'll say the U
But, since you don't have the great hate that I do (and you have the mormon rate), it may be a better decision.
True, but 45-50min its still a helluva commute - especially if it's him commuting, your time's worth more than gold in LS. But I have to agree, I'm a big Ute fan, especially because their PI clinics are solid. BYU, though, if you want to clerk or do corporate work.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:59 pm
by Veyron
BYU as the only school you can actually get a job out of ITE (and the most geographically mobile). Also, Saint's rate is actually pretty reasonable.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:22 pm
by TheFactor
Veyron wrote:BYU as the only school you can actually get a job out of ITE(and the most geographically mobile). Also, Saint's rate is actually pretty reasonable.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:25 pm
by Veyron
TheFactor wrote:Veyron wrote:BYU as the only school you can actually get a job out of ITE(and the most geographically mobile). Also, Saint's rate is actually pretty reasonable.
* Assuming OP is not in the top 10%.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:27 pm
by TheFactor
Veyron wrote:TheFactor wrote:Veyron wrote:BYU as the only school you can actually get a job out of ITE(and the most geographically mobile). Also, Saint's rate is actually pretty reasonable.
* Assuming OP is not in the top 10%.
Don't know much about Utah, but no problem getting a job in NC if you're above median at Wake.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:28 pm
by Veyron
TheFactor wrote:Veyron wrote:TheFactor wrote:Veyron wrote:BYU as the only school you can actually get a job out of ITE(and the most geographically mobile). Also, Saint's rate is actually pretty reasonable.
* Assuming OP is not in the top 10%.
Don't know much about Utah, but no problem getting a job in NC if you're above median at Wake.
Orly? What makes you say this? I was not under the impression that NC was a super-easy market.
Also, I doubt that any jobs you get as a median out of wake is going to allow you to service meaningful debt.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:34 pm
by jdemmitt
I figure if I don't get accepted to byu I think I will go to wake. Utah will bring some debt too and doesn't seem to place as well as wake.
Thoughts?
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:46 pm
by esq
I can only use my cousin's experience as an anecdote. He didn't apply to any schools in Utah because he thought he wanted to work biglaw and felt that Wake would give him a better shot at it. At the time he thought that it would be nice to end up on the e-coast. Wake offered him a really good scholly too, which is why he chose it. But when he finished up biglaw wasn't there, and he wanted to practice closer to his roots (family, friends) in Utah. He had to go through a position with a local DA's office in AZ, and then finally was able to land a pretty decent gig as a civil litigator for a firm in SLC. So I guess the point is that if you think that after three years at Wake you might want to practice in Utah, the easier route would be to go to one of Utah's law schools. You'll have more options right off the bat if you do it that way.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:19 pm
by TheFactor
Veyron wrote:Orly? What makes you say this? I was not under the impression that NC was a super-easy market.
Also, I doubt that any jobs you get as a median out of wake is going to allow you to service meaningful debt.
Know several 2 and 3Ls at or below median at Wake who have good-paying firm jobs lined up. You are correct that the NC market isn't "super-easy", but there are quite a few smaller firms in Charlotte, Raleigh, etc. that pay close to market salaries. Wake at sticker, IMO, is a poor investment, but for someone who is committed to working in NC, Wake w/ $$ is not a bad option.
Full disclosure: I voted BYU in OP's poll and will likely turn down $$$ at Wake myself. My only point is that it is possible to get a legal job from Wake...even for those who are not in the top 10%.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:25 pm
by Aberzombie1892
Yeah a handful of posters on this site like to pretend that there aren't about 30,000 legal job openings for fresh graduates every year.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:27 pm
by jdemmitt
TheFactor wrote:Veyron wrote:Orly? What makes you say this? I was not under the impression that NC was a super-easy market.
Also, I doubt that any jobs you get as a median out of wake is going to allow you to service meaningful debt.
Know several 2 and 3Ls at or below median at Wake who have good-paying firm jobs lined up. You are correct that the NC market isn't "super-easy", but there are quite a few smaller firms in Charlotte, Raleigh, etc. that pay close to market salaries. Wake at sticker, IMO, is a poor investment, but for someone who is committed to working in NC, Wake w/ $$ is not a bad option.
Full disclosure: I voted BYU in OP's poll and will likely turn down $$$ at Wake myself. My only point is that it is possible to get a legal job from Wake...even for those who are not in the top 10%.
Bob Ross, can I have your wake money? I would love a bigger scholly. When you decline, just tell them, "Hey, give this to Jdemmitt".
It should work.
Also, both of my parents live in NC now, so coming back to Utah is not a big draw.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:28 pm
by Veyron
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Yeah a handful of posters on this site like to pretend that there aren't about 30,000 legal job openings for fresh graduates every year.
And how many applicants for such openings, hmmmm?
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:37 pm
by bigkahuna2020
Veyron wrote:Aberzombie1892 wrote:Yeah a handful of posters on this site like to pretend that there aren't about 30,000 legal job openings for fresh graduates every year.
And how many applicants for such openings, hmmmm?
You really know nothing about the legal market at all. If you think someone around median at a T1/T2 CAN'T or has significant trouble getting a job (assuming basic networking was done in law school)...well, I can't help you
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:38 pm
by Veyron
bigkahuna2020 wrote:Veyron wrote:Aberzombie1892 wrote:Yeah a handful of posters on this site like to pretend that there aren't about 30,000 legal job openings for fresh graduates every year.
And how many applicants for such openings, hmmmm?
You really know nothing about the legal market at all. If you think someone around median at a T1/T2 CAN'T
or has significant trouble getting a job (assuming basic networking was done in law school)...well, I can't help you
*Is a 0L*
*Is in for a rude awakening*
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:40 pm
by bigkahuna2020
Veyron wrote:bigkahuna2020 wrote:Veyron wrote:Aberzombie1892 wrote:Yeah a handful of posters on this site like to pretend that there aren't about 30,000 legal job openings for fresh graduates every year.
And how many applicants for such openings, hmmmm?
You really know nothing about the legal market at all. If you think someone around median at a T1/T2 CAN'T
or has significant trouble getting a job (assuming basic networking was done in law school)...well, I can't help you
*Is a 0L*
*Is in for a rude awakening*
No, no I am not. It probably also helps that I have good connections due to work experience and networking already, but I know people graduating below median from freaking Seton Hall that have jobs lined up, no family connections. Admittedly, not great ones, but paying enough to pay debt and scrape by. Also, people around median at BLS, R-N, American, Temple...who have jobs. This idea that they CAN'T get jobs is false. It being a smart choice or not CAN be argued, but you simply aren't correct.
Re: BYU v Utah v Wake Forest
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:43 pm
by Veyron
[/quote]
And how many applicants for such openings, hmmmm?[/quote]
You really know nothing about the legal market at all. If you think someone around median at a T1/T2 CAN'T or has significant trouble getting a job (assuming basic networking was done in law school)...well, I can't help you[/quote]
*Is a 0L*
*Is in for a rude awakening*[/quote]
No, no I am not. It probably also helps that I have good connections due to work experience and networking already, but I know people graduating below median from freaking Seton Hall that have jobs lined up, no family connections. Admittedly, not great ones, but paying enough to pay debt and scrape by.[/quote]
Notice I said "has significant trouble." If you have great connections you can be last in your class at Cooley and get a job. The fact is, however, that MOST of the kids who are median at a T1 or T2 are in for a world of hurt. I would like nothing better than to be proven wrong in this matter, but I'm in a much better position than most of these kids and I'm still shitting my pants.