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Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:31 pm
by tremebound
Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
A. Who am I? I am three years out of undergrad and spent most of that time traveling and doing volunteer work overseas. While I enjoy traveling, I feel I have gotten much of it out of my system and would like to start a family soon after graduating law school. I have received the Darrow and Levy Scholarships and been accepted to Yale. I am an NYU IILJ finalist only, and have not yet been offered the award. I wanted to include it in case it eventually becomes a factor.
B. Location? I am from New Orleans, and while I could see myself eventually ending up back in Louisiana, I would also love living in California or warmer, metropolitan parts of the east coast.
C. What do I want to do
after law school? I am quite unsure. I have considered everything from corporate law to international law. I have a feeling once I enter law school and learn more about various legal fields, my interests will change. I am interested in clerking, and it’s one of the major reasons I am leaning towards Yale. I truly am interested in legal studies, but I feel my lack of concentrated interest in one particular area is a big reason I am having such trouble choosing a school.
D. Academia? I have considered academia but it is not a strong enough desire to strongly influence my law school choice.
E. Money? My parents make well under $100,000/year combined, and I have been financially independent for the last several years. I make under $20,000/year. This is a major factor for me and one of the biggest negatives of attending Yale. I am unsure of the grant size I will be given there, and my choice now largely seems to be (Freedom of Yale’s academic program/lack of grades + heavy debt burden) vs. (Less academic freedom/more pressure + little debt burden of other schools). That being said, Yale’s LRAP is absolutely amazing.
F.
law school culture? The
law school culture (and culture of the surrounding area) is a big factor for me. I like working diligently in a laid-back atmosphere (*I know, I know, good luck in the legal field*). For this reason I ruled out acceptances to Cornell, Harvard, and Columbia given their reputations as more gunner-ish schools. The "your-competing-against-yourself" attitude of Yale is really appealing to me and one reason I am leaning towards it as my choice. The financial issue scares the crap out of me though.
P.S
* I recognize how fortunate I am and how douche-y this post comes off as. As another poster on a similar style thread mentioned, though, the choice is important for me and it really helps having TLS input.
* Thanks for any insight. I really appreciate the help and any additional considerations you may bring up.
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:33 pm
by sarahh
Based on what you wrote, I don't see a reason for choosing another school over Yale.
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:34 pm
by TheFactor
retake
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:37 pm
by lawfuture10
TheFactor wrote:retake
haha - that joke makes me laugh every time. Seriously.
OP, the answer is always Yale.. at least IMHO. Can't see any reason why someone would turn down the holy grail -- basically set for life to do anything and everything you could possibly want.
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:41 pm
by Sam Seaborn
tremebound wrote:your-competing-against-yourself
Never ceases to amaze me, even the chosen ones aren't immune.
Oh, and go to Michigan. You'll enjoy the atmosphere and you won't have to worry about debt.
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:43 pm
by bk1
Sam Seaborn wrote:tremebound wrote:your-competing-against-yourself
Never ceases to amaze me, even the chosen ones aren't immune.
Somebody misspelled something? On the internet?! Call the presses!
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:43 pm
by bearsfan1
It's gotta be Yale man. You'll be set up for life.
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:45 pm
by kwais
I'll take Yale for 2000 Alex.
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:46 pm
by tremebound
Sam Seaborn wrote:tremebound wrote:your-competing-against-yourself
Never ceases to amaze me, even the chosen ones aren't immune.
Oh, and go to Michigan. You'll enjoy the atmosphere and you won't have to worry about debt.
Good call on the grammar. There are probably a couple more in there : )
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:46 pm
by bk1
When will you know how much need aid Yale will give you?
Doesn't the IILJ requirement a commitment to public interest or something? To me that would rule that out.
Conventional wisdom says that without ties to CA, it is going to be difficult to get a job there from any of these schools (even Yale). To be honest I would go Yale for the doors it opens with LRAP to cover your ass in the case of PI or an absurdly high chance at biglaw to just straight repay it.
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:52 pm
by Fred_McGriff
Yale
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:06 pm
by Knock
Yale
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:09 pm
by legalmo
Yale seems to be the best fit for you, coveted "holy grail" status aside. Less competition + financial cushion for any career path you choose (academia, waiting tables, circus clown, etc.) = what more could you want? You'll be a hot commodity in virtually every market. I think Yale also sends more of its class to clerkships than any other top law school IIRC (40-50%?).
Not douche-y to ask by the way. Most people seek advice on TLS for every single step of the way, its weird that some other posters get nasty when it comes to deciding which top law school to actually go to.
Congrats, too.
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:11 pm
by 20160810
If you are even semi seriously considering academia, Yale.
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:33 pm
by BarbellDreams
Honestly I would likely take Yale simply because without any concentrated interest you don't want to close any doors. If you end up doing PI Yale's LRAP will pay for everything anyway. ALl 3 other options still offer you insane mobility and prestige, but not as much as Yale.
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:51 pm
by CanadianWolf
Based on your original post, why are you even asking ? Seems more like you are telling us "Why Yale ?".
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:01 pm
by tremebound
CanadianWolf wrote:Based on your original post, why are you even asking ? Seems more like you are telling us "Why Yale ?".
My bad, I didn't mean to make it come off like that. I am actually not decided. I visited UMich this weekend and thought it was amazing but unfortunately won't have the chance to visit the other schools.
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:05 am
by DeepSeaLaw
bk187 wrote:
Conventional wisdom says that without ties to CA, it is going to be difficult to get a job there from any of these schools (even Yale).
Ah...no. California isn't as insular as some markets, and if we are just talking about landing a biglaw job in California, Yale students are going to be in as good a shape as anyone except possibly SLS students (and even then more because of OCI logistics than desirability). Search any of the most competitive LA/San Fran/Silicon Valley firms to confirm this.
If you make less than $20,000 and your parents make less than $100,000, you will likely get a significant grant from Yale. It will still be more expensive than your other options, but COAP is so good and so flexible that you should only turn down Yale if you are extremely uncomfortable with debt.
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:57 am
by Lawlcat
Sam Seaborn wrote:tremebound wrote:your-competing-against-yourself
Never ceases to amaze me, even the chosen ones aren't immune.
I think they must have typed "your" deliberately. Like Julian Bashir answering the last question wrong on his medical school exam.
Sam Seaborn wrote:
Oh, and go to Michigan. You'll enjoy the atmosphere and you won't have to worry about debt.
I marked Yale and the Darrow. Full and I'm sure utterly unsurprising disclosure: I go to Michigan.
Yale: There's a reason someone said "the chosen". Great odds of a federal clerkship. (In 2010, Yale placed about 34% in Article III clerkships, while Michigan placed about 11%.) Main downside: just about regardless of audience, answering the question of where you go to law school in the form of a second question. I'm not sure how to read you on your inclinations toward academia. If you want academia, Yale wins. (Flawless. Victory.)
Michigan: Well, you visited, so I don't need to say that much. If collegiality matters a lot, I think you'd do well to consider taking the massive scholarship and coming here. Further, Yale's LRAP is great, but never having to pay anything in the first place is arguably even better.
If you were biglaw or bust, I'd think the answer would clearly be Yale: very good odds of fancy clerkship followed by your pick of firms.
Given that you sound like you have some public interest leanings, I think you ought to consider this in terms of where you want to practice after law school. My feeling is that PI is often more regional, although of course they'll want to see your application wherever they are (whether Michigan or Yale). Specifically, law school clinics, volunteering, and student orgs are a good way to get to know the local PI people, and these connections rapidly multiply out with "I know someone who knows..." If you want to stay in the midwest, Michigan might be a better idea; if the east coast, then Yale.
My final vote? I feel like when I consciously try to push aside my affection for Michigan, I say go to Yale. I can imagine scenarios that would change that, though. If you don't want to work in BigLaw, and especially if you want to work in public interest, I think Michigan wins (unless you want government, in which case I think Yale is superior). I'd go from "leaning toward Michigan winning" to "Michigan wins hands down" if you want Midwest public interest.
But mostly: you should probably go to Yale if you're undecided about where you want to be, and since you sound quite undecided. There, you'll have the various options rolled in front of you for your appraisal like dim sum carts of destiny.
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:34 pm
by carne.asada
legalmo wrote:Not douche-y to ask by the way. Most people seek advice on TLS for every single step of the way, its weird that some other posters get nasty when it comes to deciding which top law school to actually go to.
+1
Also, Yale.
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:38 pm
by Veyron
While Penn is indeed chill and while you would undoubtedly like it and as much as it pains me to say this: GO TO YALE YOU IDIOT.
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:43 pm
by Galnnn
So I'm also an IILJ finalist, and also have some other options I'm seriously considering -- SLS, Columbia, Chicago mainly. Are you going to be at the IILJ thing at NYU at the end of March? It sounds like they pay for the ticket if you go.
I'd be curious about your thoughts on the IILJ. Like you, I know that I want to go to law school, but I'm not sure what for just yet. I'm hoping that taking classes and getting a better feel for the realities of the different law fields will help me choose. That being said, international law was what made me interested in applying initially, hence the application for IILJ. However, I'm really worried that if I get into the program and attend, I'll basically be pigeon-holing myself before I even really know what law school is all about. For all I know, public interest work centered around housing is my true passion, but I might never know that if I focus only on international stuff right from the get-go.
I'm waiting to hear back from Yale still (probably getting my rejection letter in the wave that came out earlier this week; the timing seems about right). But if you don't know what you want to do yet, it seems like Yale is the best place to explore all the opportunities.
Good luck!
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:11 pm
by doinmybest
tl;dr
But this seems right.
Sam Seaborn wrote:tremebound wrote:your-competing-against-yourself
Never ceases to amaze me, even the chosen ones aren't immune.
Oh, and go to Michigan. You'll enjoy the atmosphere and you won't have to worry about debt.
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:18 pm
by Excellence = a Habit
Lawlcat wrote:Sam Seaborn wrote:tremebound wrote:your-competing-against-yourself
Never ceases to amaze me, even the chosen ones aren't immune.
I think they must have typed "your" deliberately. Like Julian Bashir answering the last question wrong on his medical school exam.
Sam Seaborn wrote:
Oh, and go to Michigan. You'll enjoy the atmosphere and you won't have to worry about debt.
I marked Yale and the Darrow. Full and I'm sure utterly unsurprising disclosure: I go to Michigan.
Yale: There's a reason someone said "the chosen". Great odds of a federal clerkship. (In 2010, Yale placed about 34% in Article III clerkships, while Michigan placed about 11%.) Main downside: just about regardless of audience, answering the question of where you go to law school in the form of a second question. I'm not sure how to read you on your inclinations toward academia. If you want academia, Yale wins. (Flawless. Victory.)
Michigan: Well, you visited, so I don't need to say that much. If collegiality matters a lot, I think you'd do well to consider taking the massive scholarship and coming here. Further, Yale's LRAP is great, but never having to pay anything in the first place is arguably even better.
If you were biglaw or bust, I'd think the answer would clearly be Yale: very good odds of fancy clerkship followed by your pick of firms.
Given that you sound like you have some public interest leanings, I think you ought to consider this in terms of where you want to practice after law school. My feeling is that PI is often more regional, although of course they'll want to see your application wherever they are (whether Michigan or Yale). Specifically, law school clinics, volunteering, and student orgs are a good way to get to know the local PI people, and these connections rapidly multiply out with "I know someone who knows..." If you want to stay in the midwest, Michigan might be a better idea; if the east coast, then Yale.
My final vote? I feel like when I consciously try to push aside my affection for Michigan, I say go to Yale. I can imagine scenarios that would change that, though. If you don't want to work in BigLaw, and especially if you want to work in public interest, I think Michigan wins (unless you want government, in which case I think Yale is superior). I'd go from "leaning toward Michigan winning" to "Michigan wins hands down" if you want Midwest public interest.
But mostly: you should probably go to Yale if you're undecided about where you want to be, and since you sound quite undecided. There, you'll have the various options rolled in front of you for your appraisal like dim sum carts of destiny.
Dim sum carts of destiny. Yummy.
OP, I share your lack of certainty about where you want to go
after law school (in terms of location, concentration and type of practice). In my opinion this is the strongest reason for choosing Yale (I myself have not been offered this option). Yale will give you the best chance at everything, so if you decide academia's for you, you've got that chance. I also think you'll have a decent chance at need-based aid, as well as having your choice between a good LRAP or a big-law salary when you leave, making the merit offers elsewhere much less necessary.
Good luck (and great job making this a non-douchey post
)
Re: Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:49 pm
by alexonfyre
tremebound wrote:Yale vs NYU IILJ vs Michigan Darrow vs Penn Levy
A. Who am I? I am three years out of undergrad and spent most of that time traveling and doing volunteer work overseas. While I enjoy traveling, I feel I have gotten much of it out of my system and would like to start a family soon after graduating law school. I have received the Darrow and Levy Scholarships and been accepted to Yale. I am an NYU IILJ finalist only, and have not yet been offered the award. I wanted to include it in case it eventually becomes a factor.
B. Location? I am from New Orleans, and while I could see myself eventually ending up back in Louisiana, I would also love living in California or warmer, metropolitan parts of the east coast.
C. What do I want to do after law school? I am quite unsure. I have considered everything from corporate law to international law. I have a feeling once I enter law school and learn more about various legal fields, my interests will change. I am interested in clerking, and it’s one of the major reasons I am leaning towards Yale. I truly am interested in legal studies, but I feel my lack of concentrated interest in one particular area is a big reason I am having such trouble choosing a school.
D. Academia? I have considered academia but it is not a strong enough desire to strongly influence my law school choice.
E. Money? My parents make well under $100,000/year combined, and I have been financially independent for the last several years. I make under $20,000/year. This is a major factor for me and one of the biggest negatives of attending Yale. I am unsure of the grant size I will be given there, and my choice now largely seems to be (Freedom of Yale’s academic program/lack of grades + heavy debt burden) vs. (Less academic freedom/more pressure + little debt burden of other schools). That being said, Yale’s LRAP is absolutely amazing.
F. Law School Culture? The law school culture (and culture of the surrounding area) is a big factor for me. I like working diligently in a laid-back atmosphere (*I know, I know, good luck in the legal field*). For this reason I ruled out acceptances to Cornell, Harvard, and Columbia given their reputations as more gunner-ish schools. The "your-competing-against-yourself" attitude of Yale is really appealing to me and one reason I am leaning towards it as my choice. The financial issue scares the crap out of me though.
P.S
* I recognize how fortunate I am and how douche-y this post comes off as. As another poster on a similar style thread mentioned, though, the choice is important for me and it really helps having TLS input.
* Thanks for any insight. I really appreciate the help and any additional considerations you may bring up.
Off-Topic: Franklin, Newman or Jesuit?
On-Topic: Yale. If there ever were a school worth sticker, it is Yale. Go and don't look back.