Top Law Schools

So...I was accepted to a couple of tier 1 and tier 2 schools, and am still waiting to hear back from a few others. However, I was also offered a full scholarship to Michigan State University. The scholarship offer includes a spot in their honors classes and a chance to write for their law review. After browsing a few threads about MSU (and looking at their rankings), I still can't come to a decision about whether or not to attend. Is it better to go for a T1 or T2 school and graduate with debt or attend MSU and graduate with practically zero debt?

Any advice about the school itself, law school in general, or any other relevant information would be greatly appreciated!

Note: I would be willing to stay in the Michigan area to work post graduation.

mora6577 wrote:So...I was accepted to a couple of tier 1 and tier 2 schools, and am still waiting to hear back from a few others. However, I was also offered a full scholarship to Michigan State University. The scholarship offer includes a spot in their honors classes and a chance to write for their law review. After browsing a few threads about MSU (and looking at their rankings), I still can't come to a decision about whether or not to attend. Is it better to go for a T1 or T2 school and graduate with debt or attend MSU and graduate with practically zero debt?

Any advice about the school itself, law school in general, or any other relevant information would be greatly appreciated!

Note: I would be willing to stay in the Michigan area to work post graduation.

I'm also in a similar situation, with a 75% scholly and a one time $3500 award to MSU. From everything I've seen MSU is a solid school for placement in Michigan, and is increasing in reputation. That being said, breaking out of that region will prove more difficult. If you don't mind Michigan, its probably a decent choice.

"Honors Classes" sounds like French for section stacking. What are the stipulations on your scholarship?

I have a friend who attends MSU Law right now. He really likes the people, professors and the law school itself but said that employment is rough even for 1L's.

Fred_McGriff wrote:"Honors Classes" sounds like French for section stacking. What are the stipulations on your scholarship?

Just thought I'd let the OP know that I've read on other threads that MSU has been known to section stack, so be wary of your scholly stipulations. They broke the top 100 this year though so it looks like they're on the rise. Good luck with your decision.

It's official, MSU broke into the top 100, ranked 95th.

Sparty On.

bearsfan1 wrote:

Fred_McGriff wrote:"Honors Classes" sounds like French for section stacking. What are the stipulations on your scholarship?

Just thought I'd let the OP know that I've read on other threads that MSU has been known to section stack, so be wary of your scholly stipulations.

This is not true, no matter what last year's section 2 tells you.

What do you guys think of the new rank (95th)? Do you think it'll last?

Damascus wrote:What do you guys think of the new rank (95th)? Do you think it'll last?

I think that it will continue to rise, and some years down the road settle somewhere around 35-45. I think the same will happen with Penn State as well.

jne381 wrote:

Damascus wrote:What do you guys think of the new rank (95th)? Do you think it'll last?

I think that it will continue to rise, and some years down the road settle somewhere around 35-45. I think the same will happen with Penn State as well.

It will prob continue to rise b/c of the amount of resources they're putting in to attract and retain better students but 35-45 might be a stretch.

ran12 wrote:

jne381 wrote:

Damascus wrote:What do you guys think of the new rank (95th)? Do you think it'll last?

I think that it will continue to rise, and some years down the road settle somewhere around 35-45. I think the same will happen with Penn State as well.

It will prob continue to rise b/c of the amount of resources they're putting in to attract and retain better students but 35-45 might be a stretch.

I didn't say next year, but down the line I see no reason why it won't be in the same sphere (although the low end of that sphere) as the other Big Ten Schools.

you will be very hard pressed to leave MI for a long long time if you attend. Good school for practicing in MI but mobility is going to be very difficult. What are the other schools? I'm guessing they're regional or local as well so you will probably have to choose a place you would be comfortable living in for many years

jne381 wrote:

ran12 wrote:

jne381 wrote:

Damascus wrote:What do you guys think of the new rank (95th)? Do you think it'll last?

I think that it will continue to rise, and some years down the road settle somewhere around 35-45. I think the same will happen with Penn State as well.

It will prob continue to rise b/c of the amount of resources they're putting in to attract and retain better students but 35-45 might be a stretch.

I didn't say next year, but down the line I see no reason why it won't be in the same sphere (although the low end of that sphere) as the other Big Ten Schools.

Highly doubt MSU will ever be a T1 school honestly. I like the school and have friends there as well as those that graduated undergrad there, but I just dont see it. The employment stats in MI wont prosper terribly well in the legal market because, well, its Michigan (not really a big law firm state is it?) and they will never be able to nab enough high LSAT/GPA people to move their medians to those of tier one schools. Especially with them not having in state tuition.

jne381 wrote:

ran12 wrote:

jne381 wrote:

Damascus wrote:What do you guys think of the new rank (95th)? Do you think it'll last?

I think that it will continue to rise, and some years down the road settle somewhere around 35-45. I think the same will happen with Penn State as well.

It will prob continue to rise b/c of the amount of resources they're putting in to attract and retain better students but 35-45 might be a stretch.

I didn't say next year, but down the line I see no reason why it won't be in the same sphere (although the low end of that sphere) as the other Big Ten Schools.

Don't buy this, OP. The Big Ten is an athletic conference and little more, and does not conjure up the ideas of academic excellence that the Ivies do. I suppose Nebraska's jump in the rankings this year should also be attibuted to the news they are joining the Big Ten?

I was accepted to MSU and a number of other similarly situated schools throughout the country. I don't really have any ties to a specific area so I don't have a problem staying in a particular region after graduation. With that said, I think MSU does offer opportunities in markets close to MI, such as Indianapolis and Chicago if you do well enough.

The way I look at their rankings is based on their other graduate programs which have been around longer, like their MBA program which has a very healthy ranking so I would expect their law school rankings to continue to rise, albeit slowly. One thing that I was concerned about is a large majority of their students are from MI or close by so it isn't that big of a deal for them to stay in that area. With that said, their are other options for law school that are cheaper for ISS so as they expand their student base I would think that will help in their rankings.

If you aren't tied to a specific region and the schools are ranked similarly, my suggestion is go wherever is cheapest. Obviously there is a diff. between a top 25 school and a 80-100 school but I don't see a huge difference between a 90th ranked school and a T3 school.

With regard to the scholarship question, MSU's 1L average gpa is a 2.8 with the curve so be careful.

In response to Barbell Dreams.....

I understand your point but their are large firms in MI. Check out Warner Norcross and Judd in Grand Rapids, Dickinson Wright, Clark Hill, Miller Canfield Paddock & Stone, Dykema Gossett, butzel long, Honigman Miller Schwartz & Cohn are all in Detroit, and Varnum which is the only one of these not listed in the largest 250 firms is a great firm based out of Grand Rapids.

I have them in the elite 8, hope that helps!

Flanker1127 wrote:In response to Barbell Dreams.....

I understand your point but their are large firms in MI. Check out Warner Norcross and Judd in Grand Rapids, Dickinson Wright, Clark Hill, Miller Canfield Paddock & Stone, Dykema Gossett, Butzel Long, Honigman Miller Schwartz & Cohn are all in Detroit, and Varnum which is the only one of these not listed in the largest 250 firms is a great firm based out of Grand Rapids.

I am not saying there are NO firms, but there aren't enough to significantly increase employment prospects. Albuquerque has law firms as well and even a few larger ones, but U of NM isn't going to be a tier 1 school simply because there are not enough firms and jobs to raise employment stats significantly. Because there aren't employment stats in firms that are higher the school generally wont attract people with significantly higher LSAts or GPAs than the medians and thus will not move the school' overall median scores thus not improving in the rankings. I think MSU is a solid 75-100 school.

BarbellDreams wrote:

Flanker1127 wrote:In response to Barbell Dreams.....

I understand your point but their are large firms in MI. Check out Warner Norcross and Judd in Grand Rapids, Dickinson Wright, Clark Hill, Miller Canfield Paddock & Stone, Dykema Gossett, Butzel Long, Honigman Miller Schwartz & Cohn are all in Detroit, and Varnum which is the only one of these not listed in the largest 250 firms is a great firm based out of Grand Rapids.

I am not saying there are NO firms, but there aren't enough to significantly increase employment prospects. Albuquerque has law firms as well and even a few larger ones, but U of NM isn't going to be a tier 1 school simply because there are not enough firms and jobs to raise employment stats significantly. Because there aren't employment stats in firms that are higher the school generally wont attract people with significantly higher LSAts or GPAs than the medians and thus will not move the school' overall median scores thus not improving in the rankings. I think MSU is a solid 75-100 school.

I agree with that. I think MSU will eventually settle somewhere around where Oregon and IUPUI are (tied in the high 70's). Let me ask you which you think is the best option based on school first, regional market second: MSU (50% scholarship), WVU, Albany, IUPUI, or stay on the wait list at Iowa and hope.

Flanker1127 wrote:

BarbellDreams wrote:

Flanker1127 wrote:In response to Barbell Dreams.....

I understand your point but their are large firms in MI. Check out Warner Norcross and Judd in Grand Rapids, Dickinson Wright, Clark Hill, Miller Canfield Paddock & Stone, Dykema Gossett, Butzel Long, Honigman Miller Schwartz & Cohn are all in Detroit, and Varnum which is the only one of these not listed in the largest 250 firms is a great firm based out of Grand Rapids.

I am not saying there are NO firms, but there aren't enough to significantly increase employment prospects. Albuquerque has law firms as well and even a few larger ones, but U of NM isn't going to be a tier 1 school simply because there are not enough firms and jobs to raise employment stats significantly. Because there aren't employment stats in firms that are higher the school generally wont attract people with significantly higher LSAts or GPAs than the medians and thus will not move the school' overall median scores thus not improving in the rankings. I think MSU is a solid 75-100 school.

I agree with that. I think MSU will eventually settle somewhere around where Oregon and IUPUI are (tied in the high 70's). Let me ask you which you think is the best option based on school first, regional market second: MSU (50% scholarship), WVU, Albany, IUPUI, or stay on the wait list at Iowa and hope.

If you are comfortable with the idea that you will most likely (as in like 90% chance assuming no connections) work in Michigan after graduating from MSU I think MSU is a solid choice. If you're comfortable with West Virginia after law school then WVU. I wouldn't go to UIPUI if my life depeded on it and Iowa is solid and defnitely better with more mobility so maybe send a deposit to MSU and wait out the waitlist at Iowa. Honestly this ALL depends on where you wanna live.

BarbellDreams wrote:

Flanker1127 wrote:

BarbellDreams wrote:

Flanker1127 wrote:In response to Barbell Dreams.....

I understand your point but their are large firms in MI. Check out Warner Norcross and Judd in Grand Rapids, Dickinson Wright, Clark Hill, Miller Canfield Paddock & Stone, Dykema Gossett, Butzel Long, Honigman Miller Schwartz & Cohn are all in Detroit, and Varnum which is the only one of these not listed in the largest 250 firms is a great firm based out of Grand Rapids.

I am not saying there are NO firms, but there aren't enough to significantly increase employment prospects. Albuquerque has law firms as well and even a few larger ones, but U of NM isn't going to be a tier 1 school simply because there are not enough firms and jobs to raise employment stats significantly. Because there aren't employment stats in firms that are higher the school generally wont attract people with significantly higher LSAts or GPAs than the medians and thus will not move the school' overall median scores thus not improving in the rankings. I think MSU is a solid 75-100 school.

I agree with that. I think MSU will eventually settle somewhere around where Oregon and IUPUI are (tied in the high 70's). Let me ask you which you think is the best option based on school first, regional market second: MSU (50% scholarship), WVU, Albany, IUPUI, or stay on the wait list at Iowa and hope.

If you are comfortable with the idea that you will most likely (as in like 90% chance assuming no connections) work in Michigan after graduating from MSU I think MSU is a solid choice. If you're comfortable with West Virginia after law school then WVU. I wouldn't go to UIPUI if my life depeded on it and Iowa is solid and defnitely better with more mobility so maybe send a deposit to MSU and wait out the waitlist at Iowa. Honestly this ALL depends on where you wanna live.

Why wouldn't you go to IUPUI if your life "depeded" on it?

The OP is obviously a flame. There is no school in the country that will offer an incoming 1L a spot on the Law Review as part of his/her scholarship package.

cabbydui wrote:The OP is obviously a flame. There is no school in the country that will offer an incoming 1L a spot on the Law Review as part of his/her scholarship package.

I am actually quite familiar with MSU law as a relative is very high up in the program. They do offer scholarships that are full tuition + stipend for all 3 years with no stipulation (I was offered). They cannot say that you will be on law review, but they do specialize in litigation and have special "certificate" programs that you can gain, though I do not know how beneficial they are. This would be an okay school to go to if you were okay with practicing in Michigan.

But I would love to see where they said you could auto be on LR. I seriously doubt this is the case. If you did get the scholly with no stipulations, I would say it is not a bad bet at all.

If your interested in some international work MSU offers a joint JD with Ottawa which opens the Canadian market (top 15-20 from Ottawa would give a great shot at bay street which in turn could help you work your way back to the US if you wanted)