Top Law Schools

Posted: **Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:35 pm**

Hey everyone. I recently received a scholarship of 72,000 over three years from Vanderbilt, as well as a 5k scholarship for a 1L summer job (if it meets certain requirement). I have also been accepted at UVA, but I would have to pay sticker. I also have the option of Cornell at probably sticker as well, this could change, but it does not seem too likely, although a small scholarship is possible I suppose.

My goal is simply to have an interesting career within the field of law. My goals I guess could be BigLaw since it seems to open lots of doors, but I am not set on it against all else. An interesting government job, especially in DC (I know that's hard) is also very appealing. Because of this, Virginia's LRAP is appealing whereas Vandy's seems very weak. I have also thought briefly about JAG. It seems that Vandy has a lot less selection as far as Journals and the like. I guess that that is more a small school large school thing. People seem to have different preferences about the advantages of the size differences.

I also already have a good bit of UG debt. Between 50 and 100 thousand.

I do not have a lot of regional preference but I do love the West and the Northeast and could live in the Midwest as well. Do not have a lot of experience elsewhere, but I dont think I'd like the South. I am also somewhat apprehensive of 3 years in the South if I go to Vandy.

The question is basically, Is UVA worth the greater amount of money given that my career goals are somewhat flexible? Does the LRAP difference, make a big difference? and is it possible that I'd end up at a similar job no matter which one I choose due to my own choices down the line?

Please comment about why you chose what you did

Posted: **Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:49 pm**

anybody have any comments?

Posted: **Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:54 pm**

While UVA has the edge in placement less debt is always nice; either way you go this is going to be a hard decision. Visit both of the schools to see which one you prefer.

You could also try to get some $ from UVA.

Posted: **Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:03 pm**

In good economies, the overall placement difference is slight. i.e. roughly the same number of people from both schools are likely to get roughly the jobs they want.

In any economy, UVA will place into more "prestigious" firms/clerkships on average - but whether that is in and of itself even worth anything is up for debate.

In the down turn, there is ample evidence that the gap between UVA and Vandy has widened, as firms hiring smaller classes are reducing the number of schools they visit - and vandy is lower on most (large) employer's lists than UVA.

Posted: **Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:20 pm**

In my opinion, Virginia is worth sticker price in your situation since it places well nationally. Cornell is a great law school. Vanderbilt's scholarship is substantial, but if you don't like the South, or, at least, do not want to practice law in the South, then narrow your choices to Virginia & Cornell.

Posted: **Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:39 pm**

Visit Vandy. If you don't like it, go to UVA. If you do, and the area, too, I would strongly consider Vandy.

Posted: **Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:45 pm**

CanadianWolf wrote:In my opinion, Virginia is worth sticker price in your situation since it places well nationally. Cornell is a great law school. Vanderbilt's scholarship is substantial, but if you don't like the South, or, at least, do not want to practice law in the South, then narrow your choices to Virginia & Cornell.

I feel like this may be a little overly simplistic. Vandy does well outside of the South I believe.

Posted: **Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:49 pm**

I voted Vandy. Then I read the post. Honestly with that much UG debt you're sunk either way without biglaw so UVA would be my choice.

Posted: **Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:55 pm**

CanadianWolf wrote:In my opinion, Virginia is worth sticker price in your situation since it places well nationally. Cornell is a great law school. Vanderbilt's scholarship is substantial, but if you don't like the South, or, at least, do not want to practice law in the South, then narrow your choices to Virginia & Cornell.

Untrue.

A large amount of Vandy grads work outside the south..

Class of 2010
34 stayed in Tennessee (which you would expect since it is a strong TN school and most of these people planned on staying in TN regardless of where they attended)
NY - 22
Cali - 12
DC -22
Rest of the south - 35 total

% of class of 2010
33% Northeast
15% West/Southwest
38% South
12% Midwest
2% abroad

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:21 am**

BarbellDreams wrote:Honestly with that much UG debt you're sunk either way without biglaw so UVA would be my choice.

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:23 pm**

Also interested

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:53 pm**

I am well aware that Vanderbilt places outside of the South (I posted Vandy's placement by state a couple of months ago), but Virginia & Cornell offer more options outside of the South. Comparatively speaking, Virginia & Cornell are much better options for one targeting the Northeast or the West especially in light of the recently released Nat'l Law Journal's "Go-To-Law-Schools" list placing Cornell second & Virginia sixth while Vanderbilt placed 18th.

Cornell placed 58.33% of its class into the nation's largest 250 law firms.

Virginia placed 46.79%.

Vanderbilt placed 29.81%.

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:17 pm**

CanadianWolf wrote:I am well aware that Vanderbilt places outside of the South (I posted Vandy's placement by state a couple of months ago), but Virginia & Cornell offer more options outside of the South. Comparatively speaking, Virginia & Cornell are much better options for one targeting the Northeast or the West especially in light of the recently released Nat'l Law Journal's "Go-To-Law-Schools" list placing Cornell second & Virginia sixth while Vanderbilt placed 18th.

Cornell placed 58.33% of its class into the nation's largest 250 law firms.

Virginia placed 46.79%.

Vanderbilt placed 29.81%.

This isn;t really the point. Both schools obviously offer opportunity in NLJ 250s for the top 30%. Finishing in the top 30% at Vandy or UVA will give you the same opportunities. In this economy, if you dont finish n the top 30% you've got big trouble regardless of whether you are at UVA or Vandy. I think saving the $72k and offsetting some of this risk is certainly worth it regardless of the rankings-du-jour that people on here base their lives around.

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:00 pm**

thesealocust wrote:In good economies, the overall placement difference is slight. i.e. roughly the same number of people from both schools are likely to get roughly the jobs they want.

In any economy, UVA will place into more "prestigious" firms/clerkships on average - but whether that is in and of itself even worth anything is up for debate.

In the down turn, there is ample evidence that the gap between UVA and Vandy has widened, as firms hiring smaller classes are reducing the number of schools they visit - and vandy is lower on most (large) employer's lists than UVA.

I'd say this is pretty accurate. I think the meaning and significance of the ITE numbers (i.e., latest NLJ 250) are somewhat unclear, to be honest, but I don't disagree that UVA probably weathers that kind of thing slightly better.

As for advice, I think you should go to ASD at Vandy and UVA and see what you think. Honestly, from an objective standpoint (i.e., not taking a personal desire to live in Ithaca, etc., for three years into account) I don't think Cornell is worth consideration without significant scholarship.

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:06 pm**

pleasetryagain: We just disagree because I think that it is the central issue. Twice the chance of a biglaw position from Cornell than Vandy is worth more than saving $72,000 now. Same with the superior placement opportunities offered by Virginia over Vandy. Depends upon whether the OP wants certain savings now while risking job placement or much higher certainty of biglaw opportunities in a few years versus paying more tuition now.

P.S. I also think that the OP's poll is misleading because it incorrectly suggests that the total costs for Vandy over 3 years will be just $72,000 when that is only the 3 year scholarship amount. Total cost after applying the scholarship will be about double or about $140,000 out-of-pocket for 3 years at Vanderbilt. Total costs for Cornell are uncertain since OP is awaiting financial awards.

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:11 pm**

keg411 wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Honestly with that much UG debt you're sunk either way without biglaw so UVA would be my choice.

+1, and compare access to prestigious PI jobs and LRAPs. PURE SPECULATION: the most and the best PI jobs, and of course simply the greatest number of any PI job that will give you access to make use of LRAP, will be in DC/NY, markets for which Cornell and UVA, esp. ITE, will prob both be better than Vandy. Not sure how the LRAP coverage of these schools compares, but look into that too.

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:43 pm**

CanadianWolf wrote:pleasetryagain: We just disagree because I think that it is the central issue. Twice the chance of a biglaw position from Cornell than Vandy is worth more than saving $72,000 now. Same with the superior placement opportunities offered by Virginia over Vandy. Depends upon whether the OP wants certain savings now while risking job placement or much higher certainty of biglaw opportunities in a few years versus paying more tuition now.

P.S. I also think that the OP's poll is misleading because it incorrectly suggests that the total costs for Vandy over 3 years will be just $72,000 when that is only the 3 year scholarship amount. Total cost after applying the scholarship will be about double or about $140,000 out-of-pocket for 3 years at Vanderbilt. Total costs for Cornell are uncertain since OP is awaiting financial awards.

It's fine to come to whatever conclusion you want to, but you are using questionable information.

First of all, you do not have twice the chance of a biglaw position from Cornell than from Vandy. I realize what the latest NLJ 250 numbers are, but those numbers are anomalous. Last year, for instance, Vandy placed a higher percentage than Cornell in NLJ 250. We could argue about the reasons for Cornell having such a high number for Class of 2010 (early OCI and significantly higher SA offer rates in NY than in southern markets and TX), or about how significant the NLJ list even is, considering that some of Vandy's top students often go to smaller firms (25-35 lawyers) in Nashville or other southern cities. We could also look at clerkship numbers. The bottom line is that Cornell does not give you twice as good a chance to get a "biglaw" job.

Also, Vandy's tuition is $44,900. So a $72k scholarship means that OP would pay $20,900 per year in tuition. Your $140k out-of-pocket figure is pretty high. By way of comparison, Cornell's tuition is $53,150 (plus more expensive to live there, I think). So the $72k scholarship at Vandy makes Vandy closer to $100k cheaper than Cornell.

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:53 pm**

OP you have so much undergrad debt that I think that you should do what you can to minimize it by going to Vandy. That said UVA is hands down the better school for your career choices (particularly living outside of the South and going JAG).

A lot of this will come down to the grades you get while attending UVA or Vandy. If you end up in the top 1/3 at Vandy you will be able to get some great jobs outside of the South. If you end up top 1/3 at UVA you will definitely be able to get great jobs outside of the South. However if you're below median you would definitely rather be at UVA than Vandy. Below median at Vandy would mean that you would really have to consider living/working in the South. Your grades are never a sure bet, but the debt is. Personally I would take the 72K at Vandy. Note that I'm a UVA student.

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:45 pm**

BruceWayne wrote:OP you have so much undergrad debt that I think that you should do what you can to minimize it by going to Vandy. That said UVA is hands down the better school for your career choices (particularly living outside of the South and going JAG).

A lot of this will come down to the grades you get while attending UVA or Vandy. If you end up in the top 1/3 at Vandy you will be able to get some great jobs outside of the South. If you end up top 1/3 at UVA you will definitely be able to get great jobs outside of the South. However if you're below median you would definitely rather be at UVA than Vandy. Below median at Vandy would mean that you would really have to consider living/working in the South. Your grades are never a sure bet, but the debt is. Personally I would take the 72K at Vandy. Note that I'm a UVA student.

Thanks a lot all of you guys, I really appriciate your opinions. I am really thinking the same thing right now Bruce, but any money from uva would most likely end the discussion pretty quick. Really if I go to Vandy, it is pretty much like going at sticker, but my guess is that that is better than going at sticker+ debt for UVA. It is just hard to think of turning UVA down.

Posted: **Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:59 am**

useruser wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:OP you have so much undergrad debt that I think that you should do what you can to minimize it by going to Vandy. That said UVA is hands down the better school for your career choices (particularly living outside of the South and going JAG).

A lot of this will come down to the grades you get while attending UVA or Vandy. If you end up in the top 1/3 at Vandy you will be able to get some great jobs outside of the South. If you end up top 1/3 at UVA you will definitely be able to get great jobs outside of the South. However if you're below median you would definitely rather be at UVA than Vandy. Below median at Vandy would mean that you would really have to consider living/working in the South. Your grades are never a sure bet, but the debt is. Personally I would take the 72K at Vandy. Note that I'm a UVA student.
Thanks a lot all of you guys, I really appriciate your opinions. I am really thinking the same thing right now Bruce, but any money from uva would most likely end the discussion pretty quick. Really if I go to Vandy, it is pretty much like going at sticker, but my guess is that that is better than going at sticker+ debt for UVA. It is just hard to think of turning UVA down.

I'm not trying to be a jerk but you just have too much debt to be going to UVA at sticker. Even if you DO get biglaw from UVA you're going to have a hard time paying down your debt--particularly if you're one of those people who really wants to live in NYC. With the insanely high COL of NYC and the really high taxes you won't have much to pay off your 300K debt with. And after you pay your monthly loan, you really won't have much left. Go to Vandy man.

Posted: **Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:19 am**

CanadianWolf wrote:I am well aware that Vanderbilt places outside of the South (I posted Vandy's placement by state a couple of months ago), but Virginia & Cornell offer more options outside of the South. Comparatively speaking, Virginia & Cornell are much better options for one targeting the Northeast or the West especially in light of the recently released Nat'l Law Journal's "Go-To-Law-Schools" list placing Cornell second & Virginia sixth while Vanderbilt placed 18th.

Cornell placed 58.33% of its class into the nation's largest 250 law firms.

Virginia placed 46.79%.

Vanderbilt placed 29.81%.

One year's stats which reflect pre-OCI bidding and hiring and subsequent no-offers that no one saw coming? Cool story bro.

Posted: **Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:21 am**

BruceWayne wrote: I'm not trying to be a jerk but you just have too much debt to be going to UVA at sticker. Even if you DO get biglaw from UVA you're going to have a hard time paying down your debt--particularly if you're one of those people who really wants to live in NYC. With the insanely high COL of NYC and the really high taxes you won't have much to pay off your 300K debt with. And after you pay your monthly loan, you really won't have much left. Go to Vandy man.

Gotta agree with this, and this is coming from a dude who would have killed for UVA.

Posted: **Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:07 pm**

drylo: My out-of-pocket figure includes total costs, not just tuition.

Cornell's figures last year were an anomaly. Another poster compiled NLJ 3 year average placement statistics for the NLJ largest 250 law firms & Cornell placed 5th & Vanderbilt 14th. Virginia placed 8th.

3 Year NLJ 250 Placement Averages (as compiled & posted by another TLS poster):

1) Chicago 60.22
2) Columbia 60.03
3) Penn 57.27
4) Northwestern 54.39
5) Cornell 53.94

6) NYU 52.92
7) Berkeley 52.74

Virginia 52.36
9) Harvard 51.61
10) Stanford 50.67

11) Duke 49.88
12) Michigan 49.49
13) Georgetown 43.13

14) Vanderbilt 40.50

15) USC 39.21
16) BC 37.99
17) UCLA 37.81
18) BU 35.27
19) GWU 33.29
20) Fordham 32.93

Posted: **Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:34 pm**

OP: There will not be a reasonable answer that you can recieve from others on this board. Your UG debt is substantial to some and to others its not that big of a factor.

I would focus on these things:

1. Scholly $$$
2. School Preference (which schools environment makes you more comfortable, location, etc.)

Considering of the three schools mentioned, two are in the south. UVA is still going to give you a southern feel, although DC would only be 2 hrs. away, determining if you can be there for 3 years will be key to your success. I would want to give myself the most comfortable environment in order to be the most successful I could during my studies.

For some the weight of crushing law school debt influences these decisions more.

Stop focusing on career prospects so much in regards to these schools. If you focus more on excelling while there (grades, reviews, moot court, etc), figure out your career intrests, and network you will get what you want.

Remember there are only 3 categories of jobs, PI, Firms (Big Law, Mid-Law, Boutiques, Smaller firms), and Clerking. All three schools will allow you to do any of these three mentioned, ONCE YOU FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU WANT TO DO!!

Your first step will be visiting these schools. Good luck...

Posted: **Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:38 pm**

"Career prospects" is typically the single most important reason for attending law school.

You can & are getting reasonable advice, but reasonable opinions can, & often do, differ.

Focusing on scholarship $$$ is fine if you want to take a short-term perspective.

"...figure out your career interests, network and you will get what you want" is somewhat unrealistic advice bordering between fantasy & wishful thinking.

Top Law Schools

Vandy-72k v UVA sticker Forum

Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker