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WhirledWorld wrote:Maybe it's a fairly common kind of question around here, but I thought I'd get some input from the community.

Things to consider:

• I have a serious relationship with a girl in NYC. I'm trying not to take this into too much consideration and make the right choice regardless of where my girlfriend is.

• I have little idea what I want to do long-term, but I'm interested in corporate in-house as well as securities. Clerkships and Academia are both things I'm definitely interested in.

• Minnesota is my home, and I do love it, but settling down there, while that would be great, is not a huge priority.

• I want to have a family, so the long hours and urbanity of biglaw is a bit of a turn-off.

• I'm originally from Minnesota, and I could commute to the U of M from my parents' home, effectively eliminating both tuition and room and board expenses (though I would still be dealing with ~25k of undergrad debt).

• ITE, I'm not sure if I should be more worried about risking debt or risking poorer employment prospects.

Any input here is appreciated. It's a big decision for me, so I want to make the right one.

Seems like a pretty clear choice.

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Considering your career goals/interests, you should choose NYU. As a MN native, it would likely be a lot easier for you to get those jobs in Minneapolis with decent grades from NYU than with decent grades from U Minn. Plus, you'll also keep NYC as strong option--where those kind of jobs are--which would be very difficult to get to from U Minn.

I would rather risk poorer employer prospects than risk debt.

With poorer employer prospects, at least I wont have any debt. With debt - I still have a chance of getting a financial unsatisfactory job. With the extra debt, it is that much worse.

If the economy was booming and employment prospects were colorful, I would go to NYU with the debt. Since it is not, personally, I would have to first forego the emotional idea of having NYU on my resume and realize that in this economy it might not be worth the extra $100K.

Any work experience, or are you pretty much straight through from undergrad?

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Then I vote U Minn.

You're not married to whole NYC biglaw Wall street fantasy, so the fact that you'll be greatly diminishing your chances at that doesn't count for a whole lot. You never know where you'll be in the class, so it's hard to predict what kind of doors your grades will open. If all things were equal, NYU offers better employment opportunities. But all things aren't equal here.

If you end up at the tippy top of your class at either place, your opportunities are pretty similar. If you were in the middle, you'd have a better shot at a fancy NYC biglaw job from NYU, but you aren't really gunning for that.

If you're closer to the bottom at NYU without substantial work experience, you might find yourself in a bunch o' debt and trying to find a low-paying job just so you can get someone else to pay it back. There's a higher percentage of the class at U Minn that will find themselves in this position, but if you end up there, you'll have zero debt, so you can either take a small firm gig and work your way up, or say "fuck it" and go do something else.

Renzo wrote:Then I vote U Minn.

You're not married to whole NYC biglaw Wall street fantasy, so the fact that you'll be greatly diminishing your chances at that doesn't count for a whole lot. You never know where you'll be in the class, so it's hard to predict what kind of doors your grades will open. If all things were equal, NYU offers better employment opportunities. But all things aren't equal here.

If you end up at the tippy top of your class at either place, your opportunities are pretty similar. If you were in the middle, you'd have a better shot at a fancy NYC biglaw job from NYU, but you aren't really gunning for that.

If you're closer to the bottom at NYU without substantial work experience, you might find yourself in a bunch o' debt and trying to find a low-paying job just so you can get someone else to pay it back. There's a higher percentage of the class at U Minn that will find themselves in this position, but if you end up there, you'll have zero debt, so you can either take a small firm gig and work your way up, or say "fuck it" and go do something else.

Agreed. Plus, keep in mind that even if you land a nice biglaw gig in NYC after NYU (which is not a guarantee), it will take you at least 5 years to pay off that money with the interest... then you will be broke! 5 years of biglaw just to be broke does not sound very appealing to me; AND you are from MN and say that you wouldn't mind being there and having a family there. I think this makes your choice a little easier. And the gf, if she's the one; she will or you will make it work (assuming she doesn't have a job in NYC that she's not willing to leave).

Either way, you've got nice options. In the long term, I doubt you will have serious doubts either way (unless you tank at NYU and can't pay it back). Good luck!

rman1201 wrote:

WhirledWorld wrote:Maybe it's a fairly common kind of question around here, but I thought I'd get some input from the community.

Things to consider:

• I have a serious relationship with a girl in NYC. I'm trying not to take this into too much consideration and make the right choice regardless of where my girlfriend is.

• I have little idea what I want to do long-term, but I'm interested in corporate in-house as well as securities. Clerkships and Academia are both things I'm definitely interested in.

• Minnesota is my home, and I do love it, but settling down there, while that would be great, is not a huge priority.

• I want to have a family, so the long hours and urbanity of biglaw is a bit of a turn-off.

• I'm originally from Minnesota, and I could commute to the U of M from my parents' home, effectively eliminating both tuition and room and board expenses (though I would still be dealing with ~25k of undergrad debt).

• ITE, I'm not sure if I should be more worried about risking debt or risking poorer employment prospects.

Any input here is appreciated. It's a big decision for me, so I want to make the right one.

Seems like a pretty clear choice.

OK, so that is an oversimplification--mainly for rhetorical effect.

This is not altogether dissimilar from my situation a couple years ago. They are both good options, but honestly, if you don't want to work NYC biglaw hours, then I don't know if it is worth paying to go to NYU. Like somebody else said, if you do well enough at either place, you can get a great job in Minneapolis (and, by the way, you probably don't have a great shot of breaking into another secondary market without some kind of tie there). If you really do think you might want to do NYC biglaw, then I think your choice is more complicated--NYU is clearly a better option for that. But if your life is about more than your work, I think you will be happier working in Minneapolis with virtually no debt than either (1) working the same job in Minneapolis with a lot of debt, or (2) working biglaw hours in NYC with a lot of debt.

All that said, I don't want to make the choice for you--just want to offer my perspective.

Edited (a few days after posting) to remove some personal info...

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$200,000 is a big chunk of change and it's good to think it through rationally. For some people Minnesota would be the better choice here. However, it sounds like you know you want to go to NYU; you're just worried about the financial consequences. My advice is, don't sideline what you want now in the name of some nebulous feeling of responsibility. You're talking about three years of your life (and you're talking about a very good school in NYU, it's not like it's some indefensible choice).

The vast majority of people at NYU are in a substantially similar financial position; with the exception of the big named scholarships, most of the students who receive grants are getting something between $10-25,000 a year. What's the difference between $125,000 and $200,000 in debt, really? Your options for paying it back are still basically biglaw or LRAP. If you decide you want PI, then NYU is just about as good a place as you can be, and you can do LRAP and avoid the whole biglaw work/life balance issue.

i'm turning down a full ride at UMN (my home state as well) to go to a t10. i have no interest in living/working in MN though. I knew a guy maybe 2 years ago who turned down stanford for a UMN full ride. i thought that was fucking nuts, but he wanted to live and work in MN so it made sense.

i voted for NYU though, obvs

adt231 wrote: Agreed. Plus, keep in mind that even if you land a nice biglaw gig in NYC after NYU (which is not a guarantee), it will take you at least 5 years to pay off that money with the interest... then you will be broke! 5 years of biglaw just to be broke does not sound very appealing to me; AND you are from MN and say that you wouldn't mind being there and having a family there. I think this makes your choice a little easier. And the gf, if she's the one; she will or you will make it work (assuming she doesn't have a job in NYC that she's not willing to leave).

Either way, you've got nice options. In the long term, I doubt you will have serious doubts either way (unless you tank at NYU and can't pay it back). Good luck!

Uh, I know NYC COL is expensive, but I can't foresee anyone going to law school if this were literally true. I mean it may take you a few years to pay the loans back, but if you live within your means at 160k, you're still going to have a decent standard of living. You're exaggerating, right?

dixiecupdrinking wrote:What's the difference between $125,000 and $200,000 in debt, really?

I think that answers itself--with interest, it's probably twice as much debt (if not more).

Frankie55 wrote:

adt231 wrote: Agreed. Plus, keep in mind that even if you land a nice biglaw gig in NYC after NYU (which is not a guarantee), it will take you at least 5 years to pay off that money with the interest... then you will be broke! 5 years of biglaw just to be broke does not sound very appealing to me; AND you are from MN and say that you wouldn't mind being there and having a family there. I think this makes your choice a little easier. And the gf, if she's the one; she will or you will make it work (assuming she doesn't have a job in NYC that she's not willing to leave).

Either way, you've got nice options. In the long term, I doubt you will have serious doubts either way (unless you tank at NYU and can't pay it back). Good luck!

Uh, I know NYC COL is expensive, but I can't foresee anyone going to law school if this were literally true. I mean it may take you a few years to pay the loans back, but if you live within your means at 160k, you're still going to have a decent standard of living. You're exaggerating, right?

It's about right. A huge chunk of that salary is going into taxes and deferred compensation (to avoid said taxes). Living modest (but maintaining a professional wardrobe, being social with clients/coworkers, etc.) in NYC takes about $50k a year, so it'd be possible to pump about $50k a year into your loans if you were really on a mission to pay them back.

Doesn't that speak more to my point, though? Obviously most people would prefer to pay them off ASAP, but 50k a year is significantly more than the minimum payment. Certainly one would be able to find a medium between paying off the loans ASAP and avoiding being "broke"?

And forgive my ignorance, but as a naive prospect, I'm sincerely asking--where does your 50k for expenses figure come from? Do you practice? I've lived in NYC a long time, but that seems awfully high for a few suits and dinners. Does the OP's situation change significantly if we're talking about 100k instead of 200k?

go to NYU, follow the girl. oh and it's a better school.

drylo wrote:

dixiecupdrinking wrote:What's the difference between $125,000 and $200,000 in debt, really?

I think that answers itself--with interest, it's probably twice as much debt (if not more).

Well yes, obviously it will take longer to pay off. My point is that the career options that make it feasible to make your loan payments are the same either way, and OP won't be in some special leper section of NYU for people paying sticker. The mentality of "OMG I'm going to pay STICKER???" is worth fighting against for that reason, I think. You can do LRAP and never have to think about what your actual debt load is; or you can do biglaw, and, yes, have to stay an extra 2-3 years to pay it off completely, which isn't insignificant. But I'm just saying I think the actual real-life impact of the extra debt is less serious than the psychological effect "I'm paying sticker" seems to have on some people.

I'm surprised the poll is going for NYU so strongly. I don't see how Renzo's post isn't TCR, especially since the OP "has little sense of what he wants to do in the long term".

Frankie55 wrote:Doesn't that speak more to my point, though? Obviously most people would prefer to pay them off ASAP, but 50k a year is significantly more than the minimum payment. Certainly one would be able to find a medium between paying off the loans ASAP and avoiding being "broke"?

And forgive my ignorance, but as a naive prospect, I'm sincerely asking--where does your 50k for expenses figure come from? Do you practice? I've lived in NYC a long time, but that seems awfully high for a few suits and dinners. Does the OP's situation change significantly if we're talking about 100k instead of 200k?

You could live on less than 50k. But I'm assuming that you aren't going to want to share a studio and pack your lunch from home once you're in a social circle of people with high incomes. That's a pretty good approximation assuming you don't want to commute 2 hrs or have roommates, and that people are going to invite you out to eat/drink at relatively spendy places and you'll go, etc.

As for the loans, you'd be crazy to make the minimum payments. In addition to losing a fortune on interest, chances are good that any given person will be bounced out of biglaw rather than make partner, and chances are good that your income will decrease when that happens. If you put money in savings rather than paying off the loans, you need to make better than 8% annual return, or else you're losing money (since that's the interest rate on federal loans).

Broke in this sense means total assets - total debt = >0. It'll take about 5 years to get there.

dixiecupdrinking wrote:

drylo wrote:

dixiecupdrinking wrote:What's the difference between $125,000 and $200,000 in debt, really?

I think that answers itself--with interest, it's probably twice as much debt (if not more).

Well yes, obviously it will take longer to pay off. My point is that the career options that make it feasible to make your loan payments are the same either way, and OP won't be in some special leper section of NYU for people paying sticker. The mentality of "OMG I'm going to pay STICKER???" is worth fighting against for that reason, I think. You can do LRAP and never have to think about what your actual debt load is; or you can do biglaw, and, yes, have to stay an extra 2-3 years to pay it off completely, which isn't insignificant. But I'm just saying I think the actual real-life impact of the extra debt is less serious than the psychological effect "I'm paying sticker" seems to have on some people.

If you are really talking about psychology and not the actual debt, then don't pretend to talk about the debt. I agree that you are not in some special leper section if you are paying sticker for law school (and that that attitude would be counterproductive), but the difference in $125k and $200k of debt principal is very significant.