Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.) Forum

[Tanicius]

**Update: Thank you for all of the responses, its been very helpful. I just found that I received a 15K scholarship from Michigan.

My question is, would it be smart to try and leverage my offer from Duke right now, in hopes of getting more from Mich and the others?

Or is it wiser to wait it out and see what other offers come through and then trying to negotiate..

When you're checking Mail and Money, you realize that that number is per year, right? So did you receive a renewable 5k scholarship or a renewable 15k scholarship? Huge difference.

[nykfan7073]

**Update: Thank you for all of the responses, its been very helpful. I just found that I received a 15K scholarship from Michigan.

My question is, would it be smart to try and leverage my offer from Duke right now, in hopes of getting more from Mich and the others?

Or is it wiser to wait it out and see what other offers come through and then trying to negotiate..

When you're checking Mail and Money, you realize that that number is per year, right? So did you receive a renewable 5k scholarship or a renewable 15k scholarship? Huge difference.

Oh damn...lol.

I just checked it again and it says "Dean's Scholarship": 15,000. It doesnt say anything about renewable or not, it just says 15,000.

Are you sure that means per year? It doesnt specify..

[Tanicius]

**Update: Thank you for all of the responses, its been very helpful. I just found that I received a 15K scholarship from Michigan.

My question is, would it be smart to try and leverage my offer from Duke right now, in hopes of getting more from Mich and the others?

Or is it wiser to wait it out and see what other offers come through and then trying to negotiate..

When you're checking Mail and Money, you realize that that number is per year, right? So did you receive a renewable 5k scholarship or a renewable 15k scholarship? Huge difference.

Oh damn...lol.

I just checked it again and it says "Dean's Scholarship": 15,000. It doesnt say anything about renewable or not, it just says 15,000.

Are you sure that means per year? It doesnt specify..

It's per year.

[nykfan7073]

Wow. Awesome, thanks for the heads up. That changes everything, I guess now I should try and negotiate this offer with Duke because they're ranked lower?

[dresq]

**Update: Thank you for all of the responses, its been very helpful. I just found that I received a 15K scholarship from Michigan.

My question is, would it be smart to try and leverage my offer from Duke right now, in hopes of getting more from Mich and the others?

Or is it wiser to wait it out and see what other offers come through and then trying to negotiate..

When you're checking Mail and Money, you realize that that number is per year, right? So did you receive a renewable 5k scholarship or a renewable 15k scholarship? Huge difference.

Oh damn...lol.

I just checked it again and it says "Dean's Scholarship": 15,000. It doesnt say anything about renewable or not, it just says 15,000.

Are you sure that means per year? It doesnt specify..

It's per year.

That is not correct. Scholarship offers specify explicitly when they are per year. Unless things have changed in the past 2 years, Michigan gives the total amount (otherwise they would have been paying me to attend, and there's no way that's true). Your offer is $15k total, unless you can find language to the contrary.

[nykfan7073]

That is not correct. Scholarship offers specify explicitly when they are per year. Unless things have changed in the past 2 years, Michigan gives the total amount (otherwise they would have been paying me to attend, and there's no way that's true). Your offer is $15k total, unless you can find language to the contrary.

Damn. What a rollercoaster of a thread..

Im gonna try and find out the TRUTH..

[Tanicius]

Go to the Mail & Section, "Financial Aid Award Notice." If you received 15k per year, it will look like this:


Award Year| Award | Status | Offer Amount | Accept Amount | Decline Amount

2012 | LAW SCHOOL DEAN'S SCHOLARSHIP | Active | 15000.00 |15000.00 | 0.00

[nykfan7073]

Go to the Mail & Section, "Financial Aid Award Notice." If you received 15k per year, it will look like this:


Award Year| Award | Status | Offer Amount | Accept Amount | Decline Amount

2012 | LAW SCHOOL DEAN'S SCHOLARSHIP | Active | 15000.00 |15000.00 | 0.00

Ya thats exactly what it says. But just because Im getting 15k for 2012, does it mean that Im getting the same amount all three years?

[dabbadon8]

Your letter will give you a total amount. The amount listed on the admitted students site is per year. I have 54k it says 18k on the website. You got 45k. As for your decision, I would decide between duke and mich at this point since they are at even money essentially. Decide based on personal preference. They are peers. It would be a good idea to visit both.

[dresq]

Your letter will give you a total amount. The amount listed on the admitted students site is per year. I have 54k it says 18k on the website. You got 45k. As for your decision, I would decide between duke and mich at this point since they are at even money essentially. Decide based on personal preference. They are peers. It would be a good idea to visit both.

This sounds right. I also echo that you should visit both. Don't expect too much extra from Duke though. 48k is already more than 45k, and contrary to the notions on this board, there are plenty of students who would choose Duke over higher ranked schools, all else being equal. I know plenty who made that choice.

[Tanicius]

Go to the Mail & Section, "Financial Aid Award Notice." If you received 15k per year, it will look like this:


Award Year| Award | Status | Offer Amount | Accept Amount | Decline Amount

2012 | LAW SCHOOL DEAN'S SCHOLARSHIP | Active | 15000.00 |15000.00 | 0.00

Ya thats exactly what it says. But just because Im getting 15k for 2012, does it mean that Im getting the same amount all three years?

Yes.

[nykfan7073]

Sounds good. Thanks again for all the help guys, I really appreciate it.

[showNprove]

I thought you should pick Michigan even without the scholarship. Now that you are getting money, it's an absolute no-brainer. Enjoy Ann Arbor!

Your letter will give you a total amount. The amount listed on the admitted students site is per year. I have 54k it says 18k on the website. You got 45k. As for your decision, I would decide between duke and mich at this point since they are at even money essentially. Decide based on personal preference. They are peers. It would be a good idea to visit both.

Michigan and Duke are considered peers on TLS because Duke, with a class less than two-thirds the size of Michigan, can almost place the same percentage of its graduates into biglaw. Imagine if Duke had a class of 370: we would be comparing Duke and Georgetown and wondering how Duke would pay employers to hire so many of their students.

Now, that doesn't change reality: Duke's class is that small and so they do place almost as well as Michigan. But it is evidence of the relative strength of the Michigan degree. If the money is close and you don't want to be in the South, the Michigan brand will be more valuable for you.

And for the OP specifically: look at how well Michigan does in CA. They do very well.

[Ash;-)]

**Update: Thank you for all of the responses, its been very helpful. I just found that I received a 15K scholarship from Michigan.

My question is, would it be smart to try and leverage my offer from Duke right now, in hopes of getting more from Mich and the others?

Or is it wiser to wait it out and see what other offers come through and then trying to negotiate..

it is not that common for the schools to increase the scolly by themselves... and the funny thing is usually the one that you are not really considering increase the amount.... at least in my case... i actually played the leverage game with 4 schools and one accepted to match... but after i was done i felt like a used car salesman...lol...
the final out come of the leverage game; comes down to how competitive you are compare to the pool of the accepted students at the school you are trying to squeeze. i recommend to do the squeeze if your LSAT and GPA are both at or above the 75th%; thats when it might actually work.

[AreJay711]

I'd say Michigan with the scholly but I am biased.

[Ash;-)]

I'd say Michigan with the scholly but I am biased.

i agree, even without the scolly i would go to Mich. b/w the rest

[beachbum]

I thought you should pick Michigan even without the scholarship. Now that you are getting money, it's an absolute no-brainer. Enjoy Ann Arbor!

Your letter will give you a total amount. The amount listed on the admitted students site is per year. I have 54k it says 18k on the website. You got 45k. As for your decision, I would decide between duke and mich at this point since they are at even money essentially. Decide based on personal preference. They are peers. It would be a good idea to visit both.

Michigan and Duke are considered peers on TLS because Duke, with a class less than two-thirds the size of Michigan, can almost place the same percentage of its graduates into biglaw. Imagine if Duke had a class of 370: we would be comparing Duke and Georgetown and wondering how Duke would pay employers to hire so many of their students.

Now, that doesn't change reality: Duke's class is that small and so they do place almost as well as Michigan. But it is evidence of the relative strength of the Michigan degree. If the money is close and you don't want to be in the South, the Michigan brand will be more valuable for you.

And for the OP specifically: look at how well Michigan does in CA. They do very well.

[FlightoftheEarls]

It's hard to account for whether a school actually has a placement advantage in a market, but I figured I'd give QO's approach a try for LA offices since I'm bored. Since I refuse to use V10 to appraise the best firms in a non-NYC market, I've done a quick search for attorneys [associates(non-associates)] at firms in Bands 1-3 of litigation according to Chambers Associate's California rankings. Please Note: This will not be a perfectly accurate picture, and should not be seen as an indication as to which school places into the market with greater ease. The relatively small size of the numbers, the potential bias that may have emerged because of just randomly choosing "Litigation", the lack of knowledge as to how long individuals stay at these firms or exit into other areas, and the lack of reliable information on how hard it is to get into the market between the schools are all reasons why, taken alone, these numbers suck for providing a full picture. However, it does look like there may be a slightly stronger Michigan presence in LA when compared to Duke, even considering the relative size of the schools (except for GDC/Orrick).

GDC:
Duke: 6(2)
Mich: 5(3)

L&W:
Duke: 3(0)
Mich: 8(4)

MTO:
Duke: 0(0)
Mich: 6(3)

Quinn Emmanuel:
Duke: 2(0)
Mich: 5(3)

MoFo:
Duke: 0(0)
Mich: 3(1)

OMM:
Duke: 1(1)
Mich: 5(2)

Skadden:
Duke: 0(0)
Mich: 2(1)

Bingham:
Duke: 0(1)
Mich: 0(1)

Irell:
Duke: 0(1)
Mich: 4(2)

Jones Day:
Duke: 1(1)
Mich: 2(0)

Orrick:
Duke: 1(0)
Mich: 0(0)

Sidley:
Duke: 0 (0)
Mich: 1(3)

Total Numbers:
Duke: 14(6)
Mich: 41(23)

Because the numbers are so small and it's really hard to take anything worthwhile from the data, the answer for OP is: visit the ASW for both schools and see which you like better. They both can get you into these markets, and any miniscule edge that one may or may not have should easily be offset by your happiness at one school or another.

[Bosque]

I think you already accounted for this in your disclaimers, but since those are raw numbers you really need to adjust for class size. Also, I am willing to bet that a higher percentage of Duke students go into transactional work. Finally, we don't really know how many people WANTed to go to LA.

Anyway, just thought I would point out a few more reasons why you cannot really rely on that test.

[tea_drinker]

I thought you should pick Michigan even without the scholarship. Now that you are getting money, it's an absolute no-brainer. Enjoy Ann Arbor!

Your letter will give you a total amount. The amount listed on the admitted students site is per year. I have 54k it says 18k on the website. You got 45k. As for your decision, I would decide between duke and mich at this point since they are at even money essentially. Decide based on personal preference. They are peers. It would be a good idea to visit both.

Michigan and Duke are considered peers on TLS because Duke, with a class less than two-thirds the size of Michigan, can almost place the same percentage of its graduates into biglaw. Imagine if Duke had a class of 370: we would be comparing Duke and Georgetown and wondering how Duke would pay employers to hire so many of their students.

Now, that doesn't change reality: Duke's class is that small and so they do place almost as well as Michigan. But it is evidence of the relative strength of the Michigan degree. If the money is close and you don't want to be in the South, the Michigan brand will be more valuable for you.

And for the OP specifically: look at how well Michigan does in CA. They do very well.

bold to emphasize

[FlightoftheEarls]

I think you already accounted for this in your disclaimers, but since those are raw numbers you really need to adjust for class size. Also, I am willing to bet that a higher percentage of Duke students go into transactional work. Finally, we don't really know how many people WANTed to go to LA.

Anyway, just thought I would point out a few more reasons why you cannot really rely on that test.

All good points, and I did mention the class size. I also never suggested that the picture was even close to complete - merely that Michigan seems to have a slightly more established presence. I do agree that there's the possibility of a potential litigation bias (that could go either way, but I just selected that search at random), but I am curious as to why you would be willing to bet that more Duke students would do transactional as compared to Michigan students. Also, keep in mind that the search wasn't only litigation associates, but all associates at these firms.

Either way, switching out Litigation for the generic transactional search (Corporate/M&A) adds a couple new firms and keeps most of the former ones:

GDC:
Duke 6(2)
Mich 5(3)

LW:
Duke 3(0)
Mich 8(4)

Skadden:
Duke: 0(0)
Mich: 2(1)

MTO:
Duke 0(0)
Mich 6(3)

SullCrom:
Duke: 0(0)
Mich: 0(0)

dla piper (LA Downtown/LA Century City):
Duke: 0(0)
Mich: 0(0)

Milbank:
Duke: 0(0)
Mich: 5(1)

Morgan Lewis:
Duke: 0(0)
Mich: 0(0)

OMM:
Duke: 1(1)
Mich: 5(2)

Paul Hastings:
Duke: 2(1)
Mich: 1(1)

Sheppard Mullin (LA Downtown/LA Century City/OC offices):
Duke: 2(2)
Mich: 2(6)

Irell:
Duke: 0(1)
Mich: 4(2)

Proskauer:
Duke: 1(0)
Mich: 3(3)

Sidley:
Duke: 0(0)
Mich: 1(3)

For the LA offices of the top Corporate/M&A firms for SoCal, that changes the total to:
Duke: 15(7)
Mich: 42(29)


This data contains all the same flaws as Bosque and I pointed out before, the most important of which is that if fails to answer how many people actually wanted to go to that market. Both schools can get you there just fine, and how much each school fits you should be a far more important consideration that the desired placement of former students.

[showNprove]

Remember when I said that if Duke's class was as large as Michigan's class, we'd be comparing Duke with Georgetown? Well, the new NLJ 250 numbers are out, and Duke's placement is almost identical to Georgetown's. lol.

[FlightoftheEarls]

To be fair to Duke, Michigan's NLJ numbers dropped a decent ways as well, and they could have just as easily gone down more. There's absolutely nothing wrong with Duke as a school, and reading all that much into those numbers (which reflects hiring from over two years ago) seems a little unfair.

Edit: I absolutely refuse to take a QO-style approach and slam a school because they had one good/bad year on these charts in order to make my school look better. Duke is still the same excellent school it was, regardless of the numbers.

[beachbum]

Remember when I said that if Duke's class was as large as Michigan's class, we'd be comparing Duke with Georgetown? Well, the new NLJ 250 numbers are out, and Duke's placement is almost identical to Georgetown's. lol.

Good call. And based on this single data point, we should be skipping this entire discussion and sending in our deposits to Cornell.

[Reedie]

To be fair to Duke, Michigan's NLJ numbers dropped a decent ways as well, and they could have just as easily gone down more. There's absolutely nothing wrong with Duke as a school, and reading all that much into those numbers (which reflects hiring from over two years ago) seems a little unfair.[

Also, if you take those stats as definitive Cornell destroyed NYU in firm placement, which seems unlikely just as an example. The difference between Cornell and NYU is close to twice as big as the difference between NYU and Duke. The leaves in my tea this morning looked to me like they spelled out "Blue Devils," so I proffer that as a counter to the NLJ stats.