Top Law Schools

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With this career goals your hands are pretty much tied. Go to Vandy.

Vandy.

Reasons?

lol @ settle for midlaw.

I'd say adjust your goals and follow the money to WUSTL. You guys are going to be drowning in debt. Vandy will maximize your chances at your goals though.

Honestly I'd say you're better off retaking/reapplying so you can get more money somewhere.

Appellate work is hard to secure right out of law school, so keep that in mind.

I'd try to get a few thousand more out of WUSTL through negotiation. This is a really hard call, IMO. Retake/reapply is also an option.

romothesavior wrote:Appellate work is hard to secure right out of law school, so keep that in mind.

I'd try to get a few thousand more out of WUSTL through negotiation. This is a really hard call, IMO. Retake/reapply is also an option.

I'd retake and reapply if I were you, given your career goals.

If you don't retake, go to Vandy.

YourCaptain wrote:If you don't retake, go to Vandy.

I wouldn't pay sticker for Vandy

rad law wrote:

YourCaptain wrote:If you don't retake, go to Vandy.

I wouldn't pay sticker for Vandy

Where is your cut-off for paying sticker?

Edit

ihp12 wrote:My 168 was a retake, so I'm doubtful I can go up much.

I realize appellate is a lofty goal, and when combined with the debt my wife an I will collectively be in, I am realizing that biglaw or decent midlaw might be what I'm forced into. I also know that its common to change your mind once you start law school, or because of your grades you're forced to take what is available at the median.

Basicly, I want to be able to shoot for the stars but still have a sensible back up plan. This is why big-mid law placement is important, but not everything. I know vandy places better, but does it place 60k in tuition better?

You're probably right that the debt is going to force you into biglaw. The problem is that neither of these places are very sure bets for biglaw.

Edit

ihp12 wrote:In a good year, isn't Vandy high 40s big law and WUSTL high 20s? I know that's not top-14 good, but its decent. Can I at least safely assume that if I'm at median at either school that I have a chance of snagging midlaw and at or above 100k?

Vandy had high 40's biglaw pre-ITE but with the economy tanking things are quite different. Vandy probably has around high 30's to almost 40% placement at the moment according to the data I saw leaked a while back.

The problem is that midlaw isn't a very large section of the legal market so it really isn't something to count on. You might get midlaw (or even biglaw) at median out of Vandy but there is also a solid chance you end up in smalllaw. Considering the chances that you will get smalllaw out of Vandy are decently high, it just makes the risk not worth it when considering you will have sticker debt from there and your wife will have sticker debt as well.

Honestly I would take something that can get you at least 50% chance at biglaw (i.e. T12) or take a full ride somewhere so you can minimize your debt.

whitman wrote:

rad law wrote:

YourCaptain wrote:If you don't retake, go to Vandy.

I wouldn't pay sticker for Vandy

Where is your cut-off for paying sticker?

HYSCCN

Only very few schools currently have over 50% placement into Big Law. But with IBR you shouldn't feel 'forced' anyway. Vandy has over 50% placement into Big Law plus Fed Clerkships (50% refers to the sum of those two placements, not just BL), which is partially a proxy for additional Big Law placements (i.e., people who deferred their Big Law gig for a year to do the clerkship). So 50% are making enough to pay down loans, give or take, and then a healthy percentage is going to be gov't/PI (healthy depending on the eye of the beholder) and getting their butt saved by IBR maxing loan paybacks at about 10%. But all of these things are calculated risks. Even CCN is calculated risk, just with better odds. And they say lawyers are risk averse...

bk187 wrote:

ihp12 wrote:In a good year, isn't Vandy high 40s big law and WUSTL high 20s? I know that's not top-14 good, but its decent. Can I at least safely assume that if I'm at median at either school that I have a chance of snagging midlaw and at or above 100k?

Vandy had high 40's biglaw pre-ITE but with the economy tanking things are quite different. Vandy probably has around high 30's to almost 40% placement at the moment according to the data I saw leaked a while back.

The problem is that midlaw isn't a very large section of the legal market so it really isn't something to count on. You might get midlaw (or even biglaw) at median out of Vandy but there is also a solid chance you end up in smalllaw. Considering the chances that you will get smalllaw out of Vandy are decently high, it just makes the risk not worth it when considering you will have sticker debt from there and your wife will have sticker debt as well.

Honestly I would take something that can get you at least 50% chance at biglaw (i.e. T12) or take a full ride somewhere so you can minimize your debt.

If you've got some connections to Southern markets, or other smaller markets where midsize firms predominate, midlaw may be a possibility. Pay varies widely.

mr_toad wrote:Only very few schools currently have over 50% placement into Big Law. But with IBR you shouldn't feel 'forced' anyway. Vandy has over 50% placement into Big Law plus Fed Clerkships, which is partially a proxy for additional Big Law placements (i.e., people who deferred their Big Law gig for a year to do the clerkship). So 50% are making enough to pay down loans, give or take, and then a healthy percentage is going to be gov't/PI (healthy depending on the eye of the beholder) and getting their butt saved by IBR maxing loan paybacks at about 10%. But all of these things are calculated risks. Even CCN is calculated risk, just with better odds. And they say lawyers are risk averse...

1) With education cuts, who knows whether IBR will be around later
2) It's like 40% NLJ250 employment + Article III for c/o 2010. Who knows what is is now. About another 10% is going BIGFED or prestigious PI.

ihp12 wrote:In a good year, isn't Vandy high 40s big law and WUSTL high 20s? I know that's not top-14 good, but its decent. Can I at least safely assume that if I'm at median at either school that I have a chance of snagging midlaw and at or above 100k?

Your odds of getting a 100k+ job at median from either school are incredibly slim. I think median at either school is employable and will find legal work, but it almost certainly won't be a 6 figure starting salary or anywhere close to it, absent some sort of great connection.

Edit add: @ RadLaw

If I remember correctly, you're currently attending Vandy, right? The last numbers I saw were a bit higher, but I'll take your word for it as better informed than my recollection.

I disagree with IBR, however, or, at the very least, I think there will be grandfathered protection, i.e., if you have begun your studies before they revoke it, you'll be protected by it, just as people who went into repayment don't qualify. At least, that's the assumption I'm making. If you can't trust shit like that, the systems so screwed up it doesn't matter anymore anyway. I mean, to get people to go in under one assumption and then change it...??? They wouldn't do that. I hope.

But yeah, who knows, right?

mr_toad wrote:Edit add: @ RadLaw

If I remember correctly, you're currently attending Vandy, right? The last numbers I saw were a bit higher, but I'll take your word for it as better informed than my recollection.

I disagree with IBR, however, or, at the very least, I think there will be grandfathered protection, i.e., if you have begun your studies before they revoke it, you'll be protected by it, just as people who went into repayment don't qualify. At least, that's the assumption I'm making. If you can't trust shit like that, the systems so screwed up it doesn't matter anymore anyway. I mean, to get people to go in under one assumption and then change it...??? They wouldn't do that. I hope.

But yeah, who knows, right?

You're probably looking at the 2009 numbers. 2010 are lower, as they will be across the board.

Yeah, I hope IBR will be around. But 25 years is a LONG time. 10 yrs will probably be okay. Maybe.

rad law wrote:1) With education cuts, who knows whether IBR will be around later
2) It's like 40% NLJ250 employment + Article III for c/o 2010. Who knows what is is now. About another 10% is going BIGFED or prestigious PI.

1) I hear this a lot, but I think that if they got rid of it, it would most likely be grandfathered out. I just can't imagine they would screw us like that, but who knows.
2) Here at WUSTL, I'd throw out an "arbitary and capricious" estimate that it is probably in the 20-25%ish range for NLJ + clerkships, with another 5-10% going the PI/fed route. So maybe 1/3 of the class is getting that sort of thing? I think this year's numbers will be higher, and I don't want to throw out wrong information (the CSO will smite me). And I iz a stoopid 1L, so what the hell do I know?

romothesavior wrote:

rad law wrote:1) With education cuts, who knows whether IBR will be around later
2) It's like 40% NLJ250 employment + Article III for c/o 2010. Who knows what is is now. About another 10% is going BIGFED or prestigious PI.

1) I hear this a lot, but I think that if they got rid of it, it would most likely be grandfathered out. I just can't imagine they would screw us like that, but who knows.
2) Here at WUSTL, I'd throw out an "arbitary and capricious" estimate that it is probably in the 20-25%ish range for NLJ + clerkships, with another 5-10% going the PI/fed route. So maybe 1/3 of the class is getting that sort of thing? I think this year's numbers will be higher, and I don't want to throw out wrong information (the CSO will smite me). And I iz a stoopid 1L, so what the hell do I know?

If there's one group of people I don't trust, it's the federal govt.

romothesavior wrote:

ihp12 wrote:In a good year, isn't Vandy high 40s big law and WUSTL high 20s? I know that's not top-14 good, but its decent. Can I at least safely assume that if I'm at median at either school that I have a chance of snagging midlaw and at or above 100k?

Your odds of getting a 100k+ job at median from either school are incredibly slim. I think median at either school is employable and will find legal work, but it almost certainly won't be a 6 figure starting salary or anywhere close to it, absent some sort of great connection.

Median at Vandy probably won't get you an NLJ250 job, but it probably will put you in the running for decent midsize firms the have SA programs. But so much of this depends on ties, personal connections, and what markets you target.

rad law wrote:

bk187 wrote:

ihp12 wrote:In a good year, isn't Vandy high 40s big law and WUSTL high 20s? I know that's not top-14 good, but its decent. Can I at least safely assume that if I'm at median at either school that I have a chance of snagging midlaw and at or above 100k?

Vandy had high 40's biglaw pre-ITE but with the economy tanking things are quite different. Vandy probably has around high 30's to almost 40% placement at the moment according to the data I saw leaked a while back.

The problem is that midlaw isn't a very large section of the legal market so it really isn't something to count on. You might get midlaw (or even biglaw) at median out of Vandy but there is also a solid chance you end up in smalllaw. Considering the chances that you will get smalllaw out of Vandy are decently high, it just makes the risk not worth it when considering you will have sticker debt from there and your wife will have sticker debt as well.

Honestly I would take something that can get you at least 50% chance at biglaw (i.e. T12) or take a full ride somewhere so you can minimize your debt.

If you've got some connections to Southern markets, or other smaller markets where midsize firms predominate, midlaw may be a possibility. Pay varies widely.

That's a good point. Though I'd call many of those firms biglaw (my definition being those that pay the market rate in a given area).