Top Law Schools

prospects? I ask, because I'm in at one of MVP and in at Cornell. However, I think that I prefer Cornell to MVP for a variety of reasons. Is the drop off that large, that I would be insane to take Cornell over MVP if they don't throw any significant money at me? Also, how big is the drop off to GULC?

Edited for boo boo

Rory1987 wrote:prospects? I ask, because I'm in at one of MVP and I expect to be in at Cornell. However, I think that I prefer Cornell to MVP for a variety of reasons. Is the drop off that large, that I would be insane to take Cornell over MVP if they don't throw any significant money at me? Also, how big is the drop off to GULC?

I'm intereted in this as well.

The impression I get from TLS is that Cornell placed about around 1/3 of their class in biglaw this last OCI and MVP placed about 1/2 of their class.

I could easily be wrong about that.

Rory1987 wrote:prospects? I ask, because I'm in at one of MVP and I expect to be in at Cornell. However, I think that I prefer Cornell to MVP for a variety of reasons. Is the drop off that large, that I would be insane to take Cornell over MVP if they don't throw any significant money at me? Also, how big is the drop off to GULC?

Not sure. I definitely think job prospects are slightly better at MVP but i think its slight. On every NLJ250 chart I've seen cornell is about 5-10% behind MVP.

bump

Rory1987 wrote:bump

???

I am pretty sure my video provides the best answer you will get on this subject.

Kidding aside, imho I would go to whichever one offered money (if any), or to MVP if you aren't set on gunning for NYC big law. I read somewhere that Cornell's lackluster placement was due in part to their reliance on the NYC big market. Again, this is all from a clueless 0L. I think there is a lot to be said, especially when their is at best a mini-tier between the two, of choosing the school/city/culture you would most enjoy attending/living/being a part of for 3 years.

I think MVP actually might place on par with Cornell in NYC, or even better in P's case. Everywhere else (except maybe Boston, which is a weird and tough legal market), PMV wins, in that order.

Verity wrote: Everywhere else (except maybe Boston, which is a weird and tough legal market), PMV wins, in that order.

Do you have employment statistics to back this up? Talk about splitting hairs. I imagine the small difference between MVP placement statistics is due to self-selection.

Verity wrote:I think MVP actually might place on par with Cornell in NYC, or even better in P's case. Everywhere else (except maybe Boston, which is a weird and tough legal market), PMV wins, in that order.

Data? or the typical unsupported fictitious assertion?

Edited to point out that a 0L is making claims regarding the employment placement of various schools within a narrow grouping. Why do 0L's bother making all these unsubstantiated claims? It doesn't help anyone and has the potential to hurt people who don't know better than to check someone's profile or past posts to see whether or not they have any basis for making claims.

vamedic03 wrote:

Verity wrote:I think MVP actually might place on par with Cornell in NYC, or even better in P's case. Everywhere else (except maybe Boston, which is a weird and tough legal market), PMV wins, in that order.

Data? or the typical unsupported fictitious assertion?

Edited to point out that a 0L is making claims regarding the employment placement of various schools within a narrow grouping. Why do 0L's bother making all these unsubstantiated claims? It doesn't help anyone and has the potential to hurt people who don't know better than to check someone's profile or past posts to see whether or not they have any basis for making claims.

Without outing myself or people I know, my uncle is a senior partner at a V25 firm in NYC, and my aunt is also partner at a V100 in NYC. I asked them about this, and this was an educated guess on their part. As far as data goes, there isn't much to be found. LSN shows the number of firms that participate in OCI for each school and from what region:

Cornell:
Total Law Firms: 321
NY Law Firms: 82
DC Law Firms: 34
CA Law Firms: 57

UVA:
Total Law Firms: 724
NY Law Firms: 99
DC Law Firms: 100
CA Law Firms: 104

Michigan:
Total Law Firms: 622
NY Law Firms: 88
DC Law Firms: 69
CA Law Firms: 115

Penn:
Total Law Firms: 564
NY Law Firms: 108
DC Law Firms: 75
CA Law Firms: 88


Data on LSN however might not be of the best quality. I'm substantiating these claims with the best info that is available to me. I did not say that any of the four are vastly superior to the rest.

Verity wrote:I think MVP actually might place on par with Cornell in NYC, or even better in P's case. Everywhere else (except maybe Boston, which is a weird and tough legal market), PMV wins, in that order.

lol. Two-thirds of Penn's class goes to NYC or Philly. If by "Penn does better than Michigan and Virginia everywhere" you really meant to say "Penn does better than Michigan and Virginia in Philadelphia," then yes, you would be correct.

Your supposed 'data' doesn't support your proposition. You argued that the best order for big law is PMV. You then provide some random numbers, provided with little context, which, if anything, do not support your argument.

So, again, try to provide some sort of substantiation for your proposition that (a) there is a difference between MVP and (b) that the order is as you suggest it should be. Otherwise, don't post that sort of crap.

NB - I'm attacking your assertions, not because I attend UVA, but rather because I'm a big believer in MVP (and DN) being peer schools that people should choose between based on fit, not based on these random 0L assertions about which is better for big law.

Yeah, actually I made a mistake: meant to write VMP, not PMV.

The gap is noticeable....not easy to quanitfy becasue of connections and what else...but definteley noticeable. Cornell is closer to the top dog of WUSTL/GW/BU/UCLA/Texas than comparable to Mich/NU/UVA/Duke...Vandy should also be in the Duke/Mich crowd and UVA/NU are probably obove for Biglaw placement--Mich is being hurt by its location now more than ever---its tough to compete it New York vs NYU/Comubie and the rest and in Chicago vs NU/CHI now more than ever--Mich will drop because of this in this economy. Anyways---difference is noticeable and Vandy would be a much better option than Cornell if you want firm placement.

Snape wrote:The gap is noticeable....not easy to quanitfy becasue of connections and what else...but definteley noticeable. Cornell is closer to the top dog of WUSTL/GW/BU/UCLA/Texas than comparable to Mich/NU/UVA/Duke...Vandy should also be in the Duke/Mich crowd and UVA/NU are probably obove for Biglaw placement--Mich is being hurt by its location now more than ever---its tough to compete it New York vs NYU/Comubie and the rest and in Chicago vs NU/CHI now more than ever--Mich will drop because of this in this economy. Anyways---difference is noticeable and Vandy would be a much better option than Cornell if you want firm placement.

Really?

Snape wrote:Vandy would be a much better option than Cornell if you want firm placement.

Much better at equal cost? You cannot be serious.

Most of this thread seems to be filled with gibberish? Like... we're trying to quibble over the relative placement strength of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn? And we're claiming Vanderbilt is basically a T10 school?

Snape wrote:The gap is noticeable....not easy to quanitfy becasue of connections and what else...but definteley noticeable. Cornell is closer to the top dog of WUSTL/GW/BU/UCLA/Texas than comparable to Mich/NU/UVA/Duke...Vandy should also be in the Duke/Mich crowd and UVA/NU are probably obove for Biglaw placement--Mich is being hurt by its location now more than ever---its tough to compete it New York vs NYU/Comubie and the rest and in Chicago vs NU/CHI now more than ever--Mich will drop because of this in this economy. Anyways---difference is noticeable and Vandy would be a much better option than Cornell if you want firm placement.

I think this is speculation in regards to Umich. I am sure it is less of an advantage. But schools like UVA and Duke are equally far from NYC and don't feed so strongly into the extremely tough DC market. I don't think mich is suffering because of its location, more the poor advice last year about avoiding NYC which is hopefully corrected. I think mich students self selection is a major factor as I think the people who go there are not going to be focused on any one market as opposed to most of the other t-14. I do agree the location hurts somewhat but not in a way that makes it any different then UVA. NU gets a boost because firms like work experience I don't think its location is significantly responsible for that. I also don't think vandy would be better then cornell. Maybe comparable, possibly better if you want the southeast, worse for NYC.

For Bigfirm placement Vandy is much more aligned to Mich/NU/Penn/UVA/Duke and better than Cornell--just look at date--I dont really care or have anything for Vandy--its just basic knowledge of bigfirm placement and data. And NU's better placment in Chicago is also its location and ability to network and clearly be in Chicago. Mich is like UVA...totally agree. UVA has DC however and Mich has detroit.

Snape wrote:For Bigfirm placement Vandy is much more aligned to Mich/NU/Penn/UVA/Duke and better than Cornell--just look at date--I dont really care or have anything for Vandy--its just basic knowledge of bigfirm placement and data.

...source?

Juff wrote:

Snape wrote:For Bigfirm placement Vandy is much more aligned to Mich/NU/Penn/UVA/Duke and better than Cornell--just look at date--I dont really care or have anything for Vandy--its just basic knowledge of bigfirm placement and data.

...source?

The data for both Vandy and Cornell have been released a bit, iirc.

Cornell - http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... -a-debate/

Vandy - http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=147068

I don't see what Snape is seeing.

bk187 wrote:

Juff wrote:

Snape wrote:For Bigfirm placement Vandy is much more aligned to Mich/NU/Penn/UVA/Duke and better than Cornell--just look at date--I dont really care or have anything for Vandy--its just basic knowledge of bigfirm placement and data.

...source?

The data for both Vandy and Cornell have been released a bit, iirc.

Cornell - http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... -a-debate/

Vandy - http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=147068

I don't see what Snape is seeing.

Yup, from everything we know, snape is just spouting baseless speculation.

bk187 wrote:

Juff wrote:

Snape wrote:For Bigfirm placement Vandy is much more aligned to Mich/NU/Penn/UVA/Duke and better than Cornell--just look at date--I dont really care or have anything for Vandy--its just basic knowledge of bigfirm placement and data.

...source?

The data for both Vandy and Cornell have been released a bit, iirc.

Cornell - http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... -a-debate/

Vandy - http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=147068

I don't see what Snape is seeing.

For 2010 (the only semi-comparable data we have, though this Cornell data does not reflect no-offers while the Vandy data does), Cornell is probably gonna edge out Vandy in NLJ250. For Vandy, because of its rep in the South and that a lot of people will end up working down South, especially at well-paying "midlaw" firms that recruit 2Ls but don't show up on the NLJ250, the difference will be nuanced. No reason to think that Cornell wouldn't do better in NY thanks for their historical relation to NY. But if you aren't set on NY, these two schools might be fairly comparable.

Of course, we'll see the "newest" NLJ data quite soon (remember, this all happens pretty far in the past)

Vandy and Cornell are probably fairly comparable, but to say Vandy is up there with MVP is just silly.

TL;DR - we'll see the differences between Cornell and Vandy when NLJ250 comes out, but Vandy is more like Cornell than MVP.

rad law wrote:For 2010 (the only semi-comparable data we have, though this Cornell data does not reflect no-offers while the Vandy data does), Cornell is probably gonna edge out Vandy in NLJ250. For Vandy, because of its rep in the South and that a lot of people will end up working down South, especially at well-paying "midlaw" firms that recruit 2Ls but don't show up on the NLJ250, the difference will be nuanced. No reason to think that Cornell wouldn't do better in NY thanks for their historical relation to NY. But if you aren't set on NY, these two schools might be fairly comparable.

Of course, we'll see the "newest" NLJ data quite soon (remember, this all happens pretty far in the past)

Vandy and Cornell are probably fairly comparable, but to say Vandy is up there with MVP is just silly.

TL;DR - we'll see the differences between Cornell and Vandy when NLJ250 comes out, but Vandy is more like Cornell than MVP.

I didn't realize that about the no-offers, but I agree with all the points you've raised.