Top Law Schools

I was waitlisted over the weekend at ND (super reach for me, I was actually thrilled with the decision), and since WL admits can forget about $, I began wondering that even if admitted, could I risk the debt to attend. I understand what makes a school desirable to different people is extremely variable, but I'm just curious if anyone on TLS thinks paying sticker is ever "worth it", and at what schools one would pay such a premium.

HYS only. I am being serious. Employment prospects have been shot enough at CCN and up that in my opinion it's foolish to go to those schools at sticker unless A.) they're your only options, or B.) you have a specific and realistic plan for getting Biglaw.

This depends so much on what you want from your three years in schools, what you want after you graduate, how risk averse you are, etc. If I wasn't interested in BigLaw I'd probably say HYS are the only schools worth sticker. For me personally, I'd pay sticker at any of the T10 (minus Boalt), and NU.

As a splitter, I'm feeling pretty good about paying sticker for a T14. I figured I was gonna pay a lot for any semi-decent school (thanks, GPA), so I might as well attend the best one that my numbers would allow.

T13

T14 + Cooley

Upton Sinclair wrote:This depends so much on what you want from your three years in schools, what you want after you graduate, how risk averse you are, etc. If I wasn't interested in BigLaw I'd probably say HYS are the only schools worth sticker. For me personally, I'd pay sticker at any of the T10 (minus Boalt), and NU.

I'm not averse to the risk of debt, of course as long as I'm employed and can it back (obviously). I wouldn't be thinking about 100k of loans for any school I applied to besides ND, and I was banking on a straight rejection. ND is my dream school, I just never considered how I'd ever pay for it.

As for post-grad employment, doesn't ND have an interesting reputation in biglaw circles? From what I've read on TLS it seems like ND grads place nationally relatively well (for a non-T14 school).

Since I want to go into PI, I don't mind paying sticker as long as the school has a more-than-decent LRAP. My top choice is UVA and, as a splitter, I know I won't be getting money. I'm okay with that because their LRAP is awesome and I could end up paying very little for my legal education.

Yale, Harvard, Stanford. That is all.

who told you ND grads place reasonably well in BigLaw circles?

not to be a killjoy, but ND's OCI numbers are dismal and they have no "home" market to corner for BigLaw firms (the closest, Chicago, will be beat out any day by UC and NU grads). i know the ND "alum network" card gets touted a lot, but i would be very, very surprised if the most recent 2L classes made even 25% for summer BigLaw placement ...

Assuming I had no UG debt and was free to borrow any amount, T14. As a splitter HYS is out of the question, so I would spring for any T14 I could get.

Yale.

Strike out at Stanford or Harvard and you might as well have gone to Cooley.

IamAskier wrote:As for post-grad employment, doesn't ND have an interesting reputation in biglaw circles? From what I've read on TLS it seems like ND grads place nationally relatively well (for a non-T14 school).

Did you hear this from ND admissions? Relatively well =/= well. Name recognition is one thing, but placement is an entirely different game. If you want BigLaw, you're placing a 200k bet down with a 25% chance of winning. Some people are comfortable with those odds, some are not. Will you find a job with an ND law degree? Most likely. Will it be a BigLaw job that will allow you to handle paying your debt down and still living a comfortable lifestyle? 25%.

I have a good friend who went ND Law, now works in the district attorney's office in one of the 10 worst cities in the US, and may get laid off due to budget cuts. ND =/= BiglawSecure

expat17 wrote:who told you ND grads place reasonably well in BigLaw circles?

not to be a killjoy, but ND's OCI numbers are dismal and they have no "home" market to corner for BigLaw firms (the closest, Chicago, will be beat out any day by UC and NU grads). i know the ND "alum network" card gets touted a lot, but i would be very, very surprised if the most recent 2L classes made even 25% for summer BigLaw placement ...

I guess its the lack of a home market that forces ND grads to place nationally, so I can see that this could be a major issue. I think my logic process regarding ND may be skewed (case of emotion clouding reason). I just would be so depressed having to say no.

Flustercluck wrote:

IamAskier wrote:As for post-grad employment, doesn't ND have an interesting reputation in biglaw circles? From what I've read on TLS it seems like ND grads place nationally relatively well (for a non-T14 school).

Did you hear this from ND admissions? Relatively well =/= well. Name recognition is one thing, but placement is an entirely different game. If you want BigLaw, you're placing a 200k bet down with a 25% chance of winning. Some people are comfortable with those odds, some are not. Will you find a job with an ND law degree? Most likely. Will it be a BigLaw job that will allow you to handle paying your debt down and still living a comfortable lifestyle? 25%.

I have a good friend who went ND Law, now works in the district attorney's office in one of the 10 worst cities in the US, and may get laid off due to budget cuts. ND =/= BiglawSecure

ND is most likely going to be way below 25% ITE. A lot of firms that used to recruit from ND, WUSTL, etc. have been ONLY going to OCI at Chicago,NU, and Michigan.

Sentry wrote:

Flustercluck wrote:

IamAskier wrote:As for post-grad employment, doesn't ND have an interesting reputation in biglaw circles? From what I've read on TLS it seems like ND grads place nationally relatively well (for a non-T14 school).

Did you hear this from ND admissions? Relatively well =/= well. Name recognition is one thing, but placement is an entirely different game. If you want BigLaw, you're placing a 200k bet down with a 25% chance of winning. Some people are comfortable with those odds, some are not. Will you find a job with an ND law degree? Most likely. Will it be a BigLaw job that will allow you to handle paying your debt down and still living a comfortable lifestyle? 25%.

I have a good friend who went ND Law, now works in the district attorney's office in one of the 10 worst cities in the US, and may get laid off due to budget cuts. ND =/= BiglawSecure

ND is most likely going to be way below 25% ITE. A lot of firms that used to recruit from ND, WUSTL, etc. have been ONLY going to OCI at Chicago,NU, and Michigan.

Anyone seriously considering ND should do some research on this. I've heard that Notre Dame is still able to get an abnormally high number of mailers hired. Few people go to OCI and hire that way, but many more are willing to look at a Notre Dame app that comes across their desk. Of course, this would be terribly hard to confirm and only worth the effort if you were seriously considering going. I wouldn't just take anyones word for it on something like this.

Sentry wrote:

Flustercluck wrote:

IamAskier wrote:As for post-grad employment, doesn't ND have an interesting reputation in biglaw circles? From what I've read on TLS it seems like ND grads place nationally relatively well (for a non-T14 school).

Did you hear this from ND admissions? Relatively well =/= well. Name recognition is one thing, but placement is an entirely different game. If you want BigLaw, you're placing a 200k bet down with a 25% chance of winning. Some people are comfortable with those odds, some are not. Will you find a job with an ND law degree? Most likely. Will it be a BigLaw job that will allow you to handle paying your debt down and still living a comfortable lifestyle? 25%.

I have a good friend who went ND Law, now works in the district attorney's office in one of the 10 worst cities in the US, and may get laid off due to budget cuts. ND =/= BiglawSecure

ND is most likely going to be way below 25% ITE. A lot of firms that used to recruit from ND, WUSTL, etc. have been ONLY going to OCI at Chicago,NU, and Michigan.

Due to my personal situation, if I attended ND I'd be looking at around a 100K of debt. Is biglaw the ONLY reasonable way to pay this off?

Surprised at the large number of HYS-only responses. Seems to be at odds with this (LinkRemoved) thread.

I an not as debt adverse as most TLSers so FWIW I would take half the T30 at sticker. I have had many discussion these boards how I fully believe that schools such as Fordham, BC and BU are worth the investment.

If I was a bit mroe debt adverse I would say T14+UT+Vandy. In fact I would take Vandy before taking Cornell or GULC in some cases.

IamAskier wrote:

Sentry wrote:

Flustercluck wrote:

IamAskier wrote:As for post-grad employment, doesn't ND have an interesting reputation in biglaw circles? From what I've read on TLS it seems like ND grads place nationally relatively well (for a non-T14 school).

Did you hear this from ND admissions? Relatively well =/= well. Name recognition is one thing, but placement is an entirely different game. If you want BigLaw, you're placing a 200k bet down with a 25% chance of winning. Some people are comfortable with those odds, some are not. Will you find a job with an ND law degree? Most likely. Will it be a BigLaw job that will allow you to handle paying your debt down and still living a comfortable lifestyle? 25%.

I have a good friend who went ND Law, now works in the district attorney's office in one of the 10 worst cities in the US, and may get laid off due to budget cuts. ND =/= BiglawSecure

ND is most likely going to be way below 25% ITE. A lot of firms that used to recruit from ND, WUSTL, etc. have been ONLY going to OCI at Chicago,NU, and Michigan.

Due to my personal situation, if I attended ND I'd be looking at around a 100K of debt. Is biglaw the ONLY reasonable way to pay this off?

If you will have 100k TOTAL when everything else is factored in (cost of living) I don't think its a bad investment.

Figure "sticker" is tuition plus loan interest: 175K. (I don't count living expenses because I'd have them anyway plus I have my own resources for them.) And then there's the lost opportunity cost of not working in some other field for three years. Call that 100K at most, because I'm not confident about getting a well-paying job in another field over the next three years. I'm not qualified and the market is terrible.

Is a law degree going to increase my earnings by 275K over the course of my life? It's conjecture, but yes, I think so, easily. The current job environment is terrible, but over the long run law has been a lucrative field and I'm confident we'll have a return to normalcy sometime soon. Further, I really think law is what I was born to do; that I'll be good at it and will excel, with all the financial rewards that come with that.

So a law degree makes economic sense and I can see an argument that paying sticker at any accredited school is worth it. I'd probably keep away from fourth-tier schools, though, for fear of them losing accreditation some day.

I know that's not the fashionable answer on TLS, but that's how I feel. Just give me a law degree and I'll rise to the top and make a lot of money.

A scholly would sure be nice, though, lol.

IamAskier wrote:I'm not averse to the risk of debt, of course as long as I'm employed and can it back (obviously). I wouldn't be thinking about 100k of loans for any school I applied to besides ND, and I was banking on a straight rejection. ND is my dream school, I just never considered how I'd ever pay for it.

As for post-grad employment, doesn't ND have an interesting reputation in biglaw circles? From what I've read on TLS it seems like ND grads place nationally relatively well (for a non-T14 school).

Wut?

ND is considered one of the worst top regional schools on TLS, and TLS is probably right about that.

bk187 wrote:

IamAskier wrote:I'm not averse to the risk of debt, of course as long as I'm employed and can it back (obviously). I wouldn't be thinking about 100k of loans for any school I applied to besides ND, and I was banking on a straight rejection. ND is my dream school, I just never considered how I'd ever pay for it.

As for post-grad employment, doesn't ND have an interesting reputation in biglaw circles? From what I've read on TLS it seems like ND grads place nationally relatively well (for a non-T14 school).

Wut?

ND is considered one of the worst top regional schools on TLS, and TLS is probably right about that.

Do you mean they place poorly in their region or across the country?

IamAskier wrote:Do you mean they place poorly in their region or across the country?

Both.

Also, don't go to a regional school hoping it has a national pull, because it won't.

bk187 wrote:

IamAskier wrote:Do you mean they place poorly in their region or across the country?

Both.

Also, don't go to a regional school hoping it has a national pull, because it won't.

I'm not so much worried about the national placement as I am about straight employment numbers/median salaries. If I'm taking debt I need to pay it back, I don't care as much where I work to do it. Some ND grads do go other places besides the midwest though, and the before mentioned alumni network couldn't hurt.