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Pretend cost of attendance is not an issue; other than that, I'd like to hear any reasons you'd choose one over the other. Thanks in advance!

usuallyjustlurks wrote:Pretend cost of attendance is not an issue; other than that, I'd like to hear any reasons you'd choose one over the other. Thanks in advance!

Threads like these always strike me as stupid. Do you want to practice in Arizona or California -therein lies your answer.

I will say that U of A probably has better employment prospects if you have no geographic pref. Besides, Arizona kicks ass, who wouldn't want to live there?

Well, I'm not sure where I'd like to practice, but having a greater likelihood of mobility between states and/or regions at some point in the future would be an asset for me, for sure. Nonetheless, thank you for your input.

usuallyjustlurks wrote:Well, I'm not sure where I'd like to practice, but having a greater likelihood of mobility between states and/or regions at some point in the future would be an asset for me, for sure. Nonetheless, thank you for your input.

No problem.

As far as I know, neither is particularly mobile. Retake --> T-14 is probably credited for that. Nonetheless, I do know that top of the class at U of A can get you some so-cal options with some pretty good firms if you play your cards right and suspect that you could also get NM if you have ties.

In any event, every market is somewhat difficult in the first place unless one has ties, even if you have an HYS degree (NYC, DC and, to a smaller extent L.A. excepted).

Yeah, re-taking=not an option for me: I'm too old and married to put my life on hold for another year! I supposed I should explain a bit more what I meant by mobility: for personal/family reasons, I'm not interested in ever living in the east or in socal. Pretty much the only ties I have in the west are in AZ (and a little in OR), so I think I could probably figure something out for getting to AZ someday if I needed to... with a UA degree is there much mobility outside AZ, NM, and socal? (Such as other 'mountain' states, central/northern California, OR, WA assuming no ties as of yet?) Info on mobility of Hastings to those places would also be greatly appreciated. Thanks again!

Hastings doesnt have much mobility unless you are top 5% or are doing IP + have MS Engineering.

Markets like AZ, OR, WA are tiny. What few big firms exist hire from T14, small firms hire from local schools.

My ties in AZ are pretty strong, so being able to go back there later isn't a huge concern for me. I am surprised to hear that about Hastings though... I'm worried if I go to UA that I'll never be able to leave AZ, and I'm kind of fishing to see whether or not other people think that's the case (considering my lack of interest in socal and lack of ties in NM). But also, mobility isn't the only factor for me at all... any opinions on how they compare in other ways? Also, I should mention I'm not interested in biglaw at all.

usuallyjustlurks wrote:My ties in AZ are pretty strong, so being able to go back there later isn't a huge concern for me. I am surprised to hear that about Hastings though... I'm worried if I go to UA that I'll never be able to leave AZ, and I'm kind of fishing to see whether or not other people think that's the case (considering my lack of interest in socal and lack of ties in NM). But also, mobility isn't the only factor for me at all... any opinions on how they compare in other ways? Also, I should mention I'm not interested in biglaw at all.

There is no way in hell that you will ever be able to break into the NW from either school w/o ties - toughest market in the country.

Mountain west like CO/Utah, maybe but difficult w/o ties. Essentially you need to go to school where you want to practice, anything else is just wishful thinking. You have no idea how lucky you are to have AZ ties - unlike a large number of the non T-14, a significant portion of the class at U of A (at least 50%) is able to find paying legal work because of the lack of schools in the market. Even so, you need to work your AZ connections from day one to succeed if you want to practice law in an urban or suburban area. You = beggar, don't try to be a chooser.

Hastings doesnt have much mobility unless you are top 5% or are doing IP + have MS Engineering.

Markets like AZ, OR, WA are tiny. What few big firms exist hire from T14, small firms hire from local schools.

This is wrong for AZ. The big firms are = happy to take top 5-15% at U of A (depends on economy) and top 50% at the T-14. If you are willing to live in a rural area (which seems to mesh with your interests) you will have more options since there is more demand for lawyers there. Just make sure you can service your debt and familial obligations on 40-50k a year.

usuallyjustlurks wrote:Pretend cost of attendance is not an issue; other than that, I'd like to hear any reasons you'd choose one over the other. Thanks in advance!

if COA not an issue Hastings 100%

unless you love Arizona

Borhas wrote:

usuallyjustlurks wrote:Pretend cost of attendance is not an issue; other than that, I'd like to hear any reasons you'd choose one over the other. Thanks in advance!

if COA not an issue Hastings 100%

unless you love Arizona

I like Tucson--I have a lot of personal reasons to be in Tucson AND a lot of other personal reasons to not want to be there (ie. I'd rather live in SF, but living in Tucson would be 'easier' for reasons unrelated to academics or future career opportunities). But I would be very unhappy living in Phoenix or its surrounding areas (and the easier part only comes with Tucson), so if I went to UA, career prospects would be pretty much limited to Tucson since Arizona has very few livable rural areas (my ties are also only in Tucson, not in Phoenix or elsewhere).

Also, I know I'm lucky to have ties in Tucson and also to have gotten into UA--it's a great program, but when I said I had ties I said meant "pretty good"--not, mind-blowing, and not enough to be a deal-breaker. I just included that info because I'm not worried about having terrible trouble going to Tucson someday if I absolutely had to for some reason. I'm not related to a DA or anything remotely like that

Thanks for all comments--I'd love to hear more.

I'm an Arizona 1L and I had to make the decision between Hastings and Arizona as well. While I can't give an opinion on Hastings, I can say that I'm extremely happy with my decision to go to Arizona. My classmates rock, the professors are outstanding, and the environment is extremely supportive and fun. Best of luck in your decision!

usuallyjustlurks wrote:

Borhas wrote:

usuallyjustlurks wrote:Pretend cost of attendance is not an issue; other than that, I'd like to hear any reasons you'd choose one over the other. Thanks in advance!

if COA not an issue Hastings 100%

unless you love Arizona

I like Tucson--I have a lot of personal reasons to be in Tucson AND a lot of other personal reasons to not want to be there (ie. I'd rather live in SF, but living in Tucson would be 'easier' for reasons unrelated to academics or future career opportunities). But I would be very unhappy living in Phoenix or its surrounding areas (and the easier part only comes with Tucson), so if I went to UA, career prospects would be pretty much limited to Tucson since Arizona has very few livable rural areas (my ties are also only in Tucson, not in Phoenix or elsewhere).

Also, I know I'm lucky to have ties in Tucson and also to have gotten into UA--it's a great program, but when I said I had ties I said meant "pretty good"--not, mind-blowing, and not enough to be a deal-breaker. I just included that info because I'm not worried about having terrible trouble going to Tucson someday if I absolutely had to for some reason. I'm not related to a DA or anything remotely like that

Thanks for all comments--I'd love to hear more.

Pretty good ties should pass muster with a U of A JD.

SF is like the second or third hardest market in the country to break into - even kids at Boalt have trouble - , you don't make things easy for yourself, do you?

Veyron wrote: There is no way in hell that you will ever be able to break into the NW from either school w/o ties - toughest market in the country.

Pretty sure this is an overstatement: U of Az helps set people up with a NW career fair as a routine part of career services, and I have a 1L buddy who got an internship in NW US for this coming summer (unpaid but with a fairly prestigious govt agency). Also, NW job market (such as Seattle) has weathered the economy storm a lot better than some other markets. I do think there is a strong bias in NW for local schools and perhaps T14 schools, but I def think that saying it is impossible for a U of Az student to break NW market without connections is not accurate. I'm not going to say it is anything like being easy though, and you prob would need top grades to do it in most cases. Also, if you mean 'connections' in terms of having family or another particular reason for being in NW then I am more inclined to agree with you than if you mean connections for a specific position (I believe employers often want a reason for moving to a certain area if you are not from there- except at certain large firms where it is understood people will come from all over- and so having family or the like in the area could help with this aspect; obviously having a direct connection to an employer can make a huge difference though). I imagine that certain east coast schools (even T14) have a hard time breaking the NW market, which may make it seem like it would be impossible from U of Az, but I don't think that is necessarily the case.

Edit: sorry, screwed up the quote before.

Borhas wrote: if COA not an issue Hastings 100%
unless you love Arizona

I think it can just as easily be said: if COA not an issue then choose U of AZ 100%, unless you love California...

However, I think CA does generally have a higher quality of living, which is what you were probably referring to. I just don't think general quality of life of an area should necessarily be a primary determiner of which law school someone chooses (if QOL was the main reason you are indicating Hastings is the 100% choice apart from COA). If you are also indicating that you think Hastings is that much better of a law school than U of Az (such that it is a 100% obvious choice to go with Hastings) then I think you are simply mis-informed.
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It was already indicated though that this decision does have a lot to do with where OP would like to live and work. Hastings will place best in CA, and U of AZ will place best in AZ.

Lawquacious wrote:

Veyron wrote: There is no way in hell that you will ever be able to break into the NW from either school w/o ties - toughest market in the country.

Pretty sure this is an overstatement: U of Az helps set people up with a NW career fair as a routine part of career services, and I have a 1L buddy who got an internship in NW US for this coming summer (unpaid but with a fairly prestigious govt agency). Also, NW job market (such as Seattle) has weathered the economy storm a lot better than some other markets. I do think there is a strong bias in NW for local schools and perhaps T14 schools, but I def think that saying it is impossible for a U of Az student to break NW market without connections is not accurate. I'm not going to say it is anything like being easy though, and you prob would need top grades to do it in most cases. Also, if you mean 'connections' in terms of having family or another particular reason for being in NW then I am more inclined to agree with you than if you mean connections for a specific position (I believe employers often want a reason for moving to a certain area if you are not from there- except at certain large firms where it is understood people will come from all over- and so having family or the like in the area could help with this aspect; obviously having a direct connection to an employer can make a huge difference though). I imagine that certain east coast schools (even T14) have a hard time breaking the NW market, which may make it seem like it would be impossible from U of Az, but I don't think that is necessarily the case.

Edit: sorry, screwed up the quote before.

I would probably add that it is about 10billion times easier to get a 1L summer internship than a paying, full time, job. You did interpret me correctly in regard to connections and, yes, its definitely difficult to break into the PNW even from the T-14. Do you have any friends that actually landed a real job there?

I think CA does generally have a higher quality of living

This is simply not true. COL is lower in AZ, there is more dramatic nature right in and close to the cities, the cities themselves are generally cleaner and better run - and arguably far more beautiful, the taxes are lower, AZ girls are the most attractive in America, split the check, and can out-drink/shoot/Modern Warfare II you to boot, AZ is a better place to raise a family, there's more room at the top in AZ, its more exciting to be part of a state coming into its own than to live somewhere thats crumbling into the ground, AZ has a much more "devil may care" attitude than California and a more individualist culture, shall I go on?

Don't get me wrong, I love California, its leagues better than most places in America. But better than AZ? That is entirely a matter of personal preference.

Veyron wrote:

Lawquacious wrote:

Veyron wrote: There is no way in hell that you will ever be able to break into the NW from either school w/o ties - toughest market in the country.

Pretty sure this is an overstatement: U of Az helps set people up with a NW career fair as a routine part of career services, and I have a 1L buddy who got an internship in NW US for this coming summer (unpaid but with a fairly prestigious govt agency). Also, NW job market (such as Seattle) has weathered the economy storm a lot better than some other markets. I do think there is a strong bias in NW for local schools and perhaps T14 schools, but I def think that saying it is impossible for a U of Az student to break NW market without connections is not accurate. I'm not going to say it is anything like being easy though, and you prob would need top grades to do it in most cases. Also, if you mean 'connections' in terms of having family or another particular reason for being in NW then I am more inclined to agree with you than if you mean connections for a specific position (I believe employers often want a reason for moving to a certain area if you are not from there- except at certain large firms where it is understood people will come from all over- and so having family or the like in the area could help with this aspect; obviously having a direct connection to an employer can make a huge difference though). I imagine that certain east coast schools (even T14) have a hard time breaking the NW market, which may make it seem like it would be impossible from U of Az, but I don't think that is necessarily the case.

Edit: sorry, screwed up the quote before.

I would probably add that it is about 10billion times easier to get a 1L summer internship than a paying, full time, job. You did interpret me correctly in regard to connections and, yes, its definitely difficult to break into the PNW even from the T-14. Do you have any friends that actually landed a real job there?

That is a good point and a good question. I'm sure getting a full-time paid job would be much harder than getting an unpaid (albeit fairly prestigious) internship. I don't know that the magnitude of difference in difficulty is quite what you suggest (lol), but I think it is definitely a valid point. I don't know 2L/3L/ graduate experience with this. I think you're right about it being a different story, but I also think that someone who gets an internship in NW for 1L or 2L summer (or both) probably has at least somewhat of a shot of working into a paid job with the same agency eventually in many cases.

Lawquacious wrote:

I think CA does generally have a higher quality of living

Veyron wrote: This is simply not true. COL is lower in AZ, there is more dramatic nature right in and close to the cities, the cities themselves are generally cleaner and better run - and arguably far more beautiful, the taxes are lower, AZ girls are the most attractive in America, split the check, and can out-drink/shoot/Modern Warfare II you to boot, AZ is a better place to raise a family, there's more room at the top in AZ, its more exciting to be part of a state coming into its own than to live somewhere thats crumbling into the ground, AZ has a much more "devil may care" attitude than California and a more individualist culture, shall I go on?

Don't get me wrong, I love California, its leagues better than most places in America. But better than AZ? That is entirely a matter of personal preference.

I tend to agree with the preference thing, which was basically why I couldn't understand the poster who said that Hastings was the 100% choice (apart from a strong preference for being in CA). I def like a lot of things about AZ. I would say I was referring to the fact that I believe CA has more affluence and cultural influence (on the rest of the country) than AZ, but then again it is way more expensive and congested. Also, the economy there has been having some really serious problems obviously (arguably more than AZ). All this is based on my general impressions and sense of preferences though, which I think is your point.

The affluence is true. . .although the cultural influence thing may be changing, at least as far as politics is concerned.

usuallyjustlurks wrote:

Borhas wrote:

usuallyjustlurks wrote:Pretend cost of attendance is not an issue; other than that, I'd like to hear any reasons you'd choose one over the other. Thanks in advance!

if COA not an issue Hastings 100%

unless you love Arizona

I like Tucson--I have a lot of personal reasons to be in Tucson AND a lot of other personal reasons to not want to be there (ie. I'd rather live in SF, but living in Tucson would be 'easier' for reasons unrelated to academics or future career opportunities). But I would be very unhappy living in Phoenix or its surrounding areas (and the easier part only comes with Tucson), so if I went to UA, career prospects would be pretty much limited to Tucson since Arizona has very few livable rural areas (my ties are also only in Tucson, not in Phoenix or elsewhere).

Also, I know I'm lucky to have ties in Tucson and also to have gotten into UA--it's a great program, but when I said I had ties I said meant "pretty good"--not, mind-blowing, and not enough to be a deal-breaker. I just included that info because I'm not worried about having terrible trouble going to Tucson someday if I absolutely had to for some reason. I'm not related to a DA or anything remotely like that

Thanks for all comments--I'd love to hear more.

I've never been to Tucso, I've only been to Phoenix. I'd rather live in L.A. than Phoenix, and I don't want to live in L.A. I'm sure cost of living is lower in AZ, all I know is if cost isn't a factor I'd spend 3 years in SF, CA than anywhere in AZ. This city is truly God's Country.

So yeah, like I said unless you love Arizona go to Hastings, I see no reason to go to Arizona unless you're sure you want to work in AZ. Hastings is regional too, but Hastings region is CA... CA is fucking huge and diverse. There is something for everyone here. But yeah it does cost more, but then again if you want to live in the middle of nowhere at a low cost you could do that just as well in CA as in AZ. I'm sure Bakersfield is pretty cheap.

Borhas wrote:

usuallyjustlurks wrote:

Borhas wrote:

usuallyjustlurks wrote:Pretend cost of attendance is not an issue; other than that, I'd like to hear any reasons you'd choose one over the other. Thanks in advance!

if COA not an issue Hastings 100%

unless you love Arizona

I like Tucson--I have a lot of personal reasons to be in Tucson AND a lot of other personal reasons to not want to be there (ie. I'd rather live in SF, but living in Tucson would be 'easier' for reasons unrelated to academics or future career opportunities). But I would be very unhappy living in Phoenix or its surrounding areas (and the easier part only comes with Tucson), so if I went to UA, career prospects would be pretty much limited to Tucson since Arizona has very few livable rural areas (my ties are also only in Tucson, not in Phoenix or elsewhere).

Also, I know I'm lucky to have ties in Tucson and also to have gotten into UA--it's a great program, but when I said I had ties I said meant "pretty good"--not, mind-blowing, and not enough to be a deal-breaker. I just included that info because I'm not worried about having terrible trouble going to Tucson someday if I absolutely had to for some reason. I'm not related to a DA or anything remotely like that

Thanks for all comments--I'd love to hear more.

I've never been to Tucso, I've only been to Phoenix. I'd rather live in L.A. than Phoenix, and I don't want to live in L.A. I'm sure cost of living is lower in AZ, all I know is if cost isn't a factor I'd spend 3 years in SF, CA than anywhere in AZ. This city is truly God's Country.

So yeah, like I said unless you love Arizona go to Hastings, I see no reason to go to Arizona unless you're sure you want to work in AZ. Hastings is regional too, but Hastings region is CA... CA is fucking huge and diverse. There is something for everyone here. But yeah it does cost more, but then again if you want to live in the middle of nowhere at a low cost you could do that just as well in CA as in AZ. I'm sure Bakersfield is pretty cheap.

Funny, I always thought of the Valley as being G-d's country. I mean, really, comparing Phoenix to Bakersfield? Maybe Mesa.

m

usuallyjustlurks wrote:thanks again for the input Phoenix doesn't suck as much as Bakersfield, LA doesn't suck as much as Phoenix: all three places would be very undesirable for me. As I said above, my personal preference would be SF/California, but I have a lot of pressure to be in AZ. If going to UA means I will be in Tucson/AZ forever, that's a deficit to me personally, especially since i think i could go to Tucson one day either way. I'm extremely interested in other ways besides placement/location the programs compare and would love input on that. Location will probably not be the ultimate deciding factor for me given my pressure to stay/desire to leave conundrum.

I imagine they both have similar reach in that they do have some degree of placement power into other states (at least U of Az does, I don't know about Hastings but would be very surprised if not similar); the placement may be contingent on doing very well or otherwise taking less than desirable positions in whatever state you end up wanting to live in (after trying long and hard perhaps to find anything). I suppose that you could really get stuck, but I think if you were resourceful and persistent you could most likely find some sort of legal employment many places in the U.S. from either school. The position definitely may be relatively low-paying and not as good as what you could likely get in CA from Hastings or in AZ from U of Az though. Just my speculation, but I suspect that it is really not that far from the mark (as far as some may insist).

Edit: it sounds to me like it would be good if possible to more or less make up your mind with these options because they are generally regional schools. If you want to be in SF obv. Hastings is the way to go, and vice-versa for AZ. I suppose Hastings might have slightly better placement power into AZ than U of AZ into San Fran area (because I have heard that is a hard market to break), but I feel sure that U of AZ is way better for all of AZ than Hastings would be, and I think that the above analysis I gave does apply in that I would be surprised if you couldn't get some sort of legal-related job in No. CA from U of AZ if you were resourceful and willing to take a less than ideal position (and of course grades would help).

If you truly want to have a good shot at breaking either market concurrently after graduation, I think the only credited response is to retake the LSAT and hope eventually to get in a position where you can get a T14 school that could reach into both markets simultaneously.