Top Law Schools

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You'll need top 1/3 for a decent shot at LA biglaw out of Berk and top 25% out for a decent shot at LA biglaw out of UCLA. Both at stick? ...Seems like a no brainer to me, Ayetollah Brohmeni.

What is UCLA's Law and Philosophy program? It sounds worthless. Berkeley will give you better employment prospects, so if neither gives you money then I'd recommend Berkeley.

Why are you interested in the law-philosophy program? Do you want to be a professor? Because if you do, you should go to Boalt or an even better school (HYSCC).

If you are interested in biglaw, you should still go to Boalt. You are right, it usually is a no-brainer. Unless you have a personal situation that limits your ability to get out of LA, you should go to Berkeley.

OP,

I am also very interested in UCLA's philosophy specialization, but not because of any job or because of any intention of going into academia. I just think it's interesting and that it would be uniquely intellectually satisfying. I'm guessing you are feeling the same. That said, I would still go to Berkeley. It's just a better school and your job prospects are going to be a little better. Also, they do have a few philosophy courses that you can take as a 2L or 3L, and their Kadish Lectures are pretty cool. In other words, I don't think your thirst for knowledge will remain parched at Berkeley. You wouldn't be the first or the last person to choose UCLA over Berkeley, but your reasons, as stated above, don't quite justify UCLA.

Hope that helps. P.S. did you get the email UCLA sent us philosophy people yesterday?

Apply at Stanford before you decide.

Have you visited both law schools ? Have you applied to Stanford ? From the limited info. shared, it seems that you cannot make a wrong choice. Congratulations !

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profizzle wrote:You'll need top 1/3 for a decent shot at LA biglaw out of Berk and top 25% out for a decent shot at LA biglaw out of UCLA. Both at stick? ...Seems like a no brainer to me, Ayetollah Brohmeni.

Don't know about UCLA, but this is not true for Boalt. It's more like top 50%, and even then, you can get by lower depending on your personality and the market you're interested in.

Obviously I'd choose Boalt.

Lolwut. Idk what OCI stats your looking at brother, but median at Boalt is NOT secure for LA biglaw ITE. Boalt barely placed 50% in BigLaw total in OCI 2007 (see 2009 NLJ 250 numbers) and that was before ITE, dawg. Closer to 30-40% now, Bro Montana. I love Berkeley but your statements simply aren't true, mango.

profizzle wrote:Lolwut. Idk what OCI stats your looking at brother, but median at Boalt is NOT secure for LA biglaw ITE. Boalt barely placed 50% in BigLaw total in OCI 2007 (see 2009 NLJ 250 numbers) and that was before ITE, dawg. Closer to 30-40% now, Bro Montana. I love Berkeley but your statements simply aren't true, mango.

He goes there...

Bildungsroman wrote:What is UCLA's Law and Philosophy program? It sounds worthless. Berkeley will give you better employment prospects, so if neither gives you money then I'd recommend Berkeley.

All of this.

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profizzle wrote:Lolwut. Idk what OCI stats your looking at brother, but median at Boalt is NOT secure for LA biglaw ITE. Boalt barely placed 50% in BigLaw total in OCI 2007 (see 2009 NLJ 250 numbers) and that was before ITE, dawg. Closer to 30-40% now, Bro Montana. I love Berkeley but your statements simply aren't true, mango.

This is a very common logical fallacy that appears on TLS over and over again. Simply because a school places x% in Biglaw does not mean that only the top x% of a class can find employment in Biglaw. There are many reasons why this is poor reasoning, here are a few:

a) Many people in the top 50% of a given class at Boalt choose not to go Biglaw.
b) Many people at Boalt choose to go to market or near-market boutique firms that don't show up as Biglaw/NLJ 250.
c) A moderate amount of people who are below median get Biglaw jobs due to market selection and performance at interviews.

Also, the weird slang isn't very funny.

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Thanks for all your thoughts, everyone.

krad wrote:

Bildungsroman wrote:What is UCLA's Law and Philosophy program? It sounds worthless. Berkeley will give you better employment prospects, so if neither gives you money then I'd recommend Berkeley.

All of this.

Some people actually look for intellectual fulfillment from their education, not just a job. UCLA's Law & Philosophy program may be worthless in terms of improving one's job prospects (like almost all specialization's), but that doesn't mean that it's valueless. UCLA has an outstanding philosophy program, and their faculty is top notch. For someone who values the study of philosophy, this unique specialization (not found almost anywhere else), is pretty cool. Does that mean OP should choose UCLA? No. Does that mean job prospects shouldn't be paramount? No. I'm not saying that. But these programs certainly aren't worthless. It won't be an important deciding factor like job prospects will be--not nearly--but it might play a role similar to weather, location, facilities, etc. when deciding a school.

NorCalBruin wrote: Some people actually look for intellectual fulfillment from their education, not just a job. UCLA's Law & Philosophy program may be worthless in terms of improving one's job prospects (like almost all specialization's), but that doesn't mean that it's valueless. UCLA has an outstanding philosophy program, and their faculty is top notch. For someone who values the study of philosophy, this unique specialization (not found almost anywhere else), is pretty cool. Does that mean OP should choose UCLA? No. Does that mean job prospects shouldn't be paramount? No. I'm not saying that. But these programs certainly aren't worthless. It won't be an important deciding factor like job prospects will be--not nearly--but it might play a role similar to weather, location, facilities, etc. when deciding a school.

As someone that seeks intellectual fulfillment through my education (and as a fellow former Bruin), I respect what you're saying here. However, I wasn't saying it is 'valueless' as a program. In terms of being a deciding factor in which school to attend when we're talking B vs. UCLA, which is what I thought OP was saying, I think it is rather worthless. Finding post-LS employment >> educational fulfillment when you're looking at sticker.

I think we pretty much agree

Have you emailed/called UCLA to try to talk about scholarships? I did that, even near the end of the cycle, and they were more than happy to jump in with some $$ to try to buy better students away from better schools.

Go to Boalt and read books about philosophy on your own.

johnnyutah wrote:Go to Boalt and read books about philosophy on your own.

This is my approach.

NorCalBruin wrote: Some people actually look for intellectual fulfillment from their education, not just a job.

These people should think long and hard before dropping $150k on professional school. Every class you take toward that philosophy crap during law school is a class you could have taken for better job prospects.

OP have you tried contacting Berkeley about available classes/concentrations in philosophy? I think even if there is not a formal program you could get the courses you want. You can do independent study and take up to 10 credits outside the law school as well if you have an academic interest in philosophy. I don't think one specific program is worth the drop in rankings. However, it also sounds like you have personal connections in LA. Do you want a break from LA for 3 years, or is it more important for you to stay close to LA?

bilbobaggins wrote:

profizzle wrote:Lolwut. Idk what OCI stats your looking at brother, but median at Boalt is NOT secure for LA biglaw ITE. Boalt barely placed 50% in BigLaw total in OCI 2007 (see 2009 NLJ 250 numbers) and that was before ITE, dawg. Closer to 30-40% now, Bro Montana. I love Berkeley but your statements simply aren't true, mango.

This is a very common logical fallacy that appears on TLS over and over again. Simply because a school places x% in Biglaw does not mean that only the top x% of a class can find employment in Biglaw. There are many reasons why this is poor reasoning, here are a few:

a) Many people in the top 50% of a given class at Boalt choose not to go Biglaw.
b) Many people at Boalt choose to go to market or near-market boutique firms that don't show up as Biglaw/NLJ 250.
c) A moderate amount of people who are below median get Biglaw jobs due to market selection and performance at interviews.

Also, the weird slang isn't very funny.

Not to mention people in the top 50% who go into PI, gov, and clerkships.

another vote for Berkeley here

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