All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school? Forum

[northwood]

you need a hobby, whatever it is.
i prefer to spend as many days as possible on the golf course- illl go try out clubs and see how they feel. i know i wontbuy anything, but its still nice to go swing a club as often as possible

[Patriot1208]

2. Bashing those who dont attend a T14 accusing them of being inferior, soon-to-be unemployed bastards

I certainly am not bashing those who don't attend T14s, since I don't attend one myself.

And I agree that if a person can't get into a top school (top 6-10 schools or so), they should go to a strong regional school where they want to practice. But my definition of strong regional is UIUC, GW, BU, Vanderbilt, UCLA, UNC, etc., not Case Western, Cardozo, Rutgers, Temple, etc.

Also, I just want to emphasize that I never in my entire posting history have said or suggested that a T2 or T3 is always a bad decision. Not all of these schools are created equal, and they can be okay if people go to them for free or close to it and pick a school with a decent niche market. Southern Illinois with a full ride =/= Seton Hall at sticker, and I am fully aware of that.

This thread is getting old and it is going in circles. Most people are going to do what they want to do, regardless of what they are told by current students who know what the market is like. But if one or two posters read this and have reconsidered their choice of law school because of it, then I consider it a win.

WUSTL < Temple, Nova in Philly. You don't know what you are talking about in the Philly market and likely in general. WUSTL may be ranked higher than Temple and Nova but you lose in the Philly market.

I just want to point at that you, and others ITT, completely misread what he was saying. He wasn't suggesting WUSTL over Temple for Philly, he was suggesting WUSTL for St. Louis. It was one of his examples of "a strong regional school in a market you want to work in". As in, a school that is the best school in it's area. For example, WUSTL for St. Louis, Iowa for Iowa, Ohio State for Ohio, Washington for Washington, etc. But instead you get kids who go to Temple or Cardozo or American that are all in markets that are overcrowded by kids from better schools. American is a bad choice for everyone, always, that's just the way it is. But people want to ignore the evidence and advice of those who are actually knowledgeable and instead use anecdotal evidence from their uncle who graduated school 20 years ago. Or, worse, they talk to a partner at a law firm who is completely ignorant about the hiring situation. People think they are a good authority to listen to but what he doesn't tell you is that he has absolutely zero knowledge of the current hiring market.

[r6_philly]

nice car...hate the idea of leasing though. I much prefer not having a note on any of the three vehicles I presently own. And *gag* at the $200/mo insurance for ONE vehicle...makes me glad I am in Texas.

I actually likes leases now because I change them so often. I bought 5 cars since 2005 (counting my wife) so I haven't been able to not have car payments. I will lease at least the next car for me so I can turn it in and get something else in 2 years (if the deal is sweet).

You know what, I made a mistake, I pay $200 for 3 cars. $50 deductibles. Sorry wasn't thinking (and make not so bad now right lol). I also get the best rating possible in PA.

[Patriot1208]

If you trust your social skills and ability to hustle, I have my doubts the lower t-14 is a better option than the guaranteed full ride to IU: Bloomington for all those with 170 and above.

the ability to hustle? What a bullshit piece of advice.

[deathviaboredom]

..

[r6_philly]

so what is the purpose of attacking the other side?

Human nature. Bashing the other side to make sure your side appears more valid and ignoring the possibility that both sides could be valid or invalid at the same time.

My dad is better than yours, I agree with that

[LSATWIZ]

r6: that is insane. i would not pay 999/month for a car even if i had it. it's just a status symbol! i'd rather give that money to charity or invest it. i'm fine driving a cheap motorcycle, and would feel out of place in a 80k+ car no matter how rich i become. i am very money hungry, but only for power, not for status or the crappy boring women who come along with it.

[r6_philly]

r6: that is insane. i would not pay 999/month for a car even if i had it. it's just a status symbol! i'd rather give that money to charity or invest it. i'm fine driving a cheap motorcycle, and would feel out of place in a 80k+ car no matter how rich i become. i am very money hungry, but only for power, not for status or the crappy boring women who come along with it.

Our understanding of utility of cars are definitely different. There are reasons beyond looks/status about expensive cars and bikes. You pay for performance (no, not just speed) and comfort. For most people the money may not be well spent, but I am not most people when it comes to cars and bikes.

ETA: I could spend $100k in parts for a bike and you wouldn't even know that I changed anything, so it definitely isn't about look/status for me. I know what you are referring to, but the insults are misplaced

[r6_philly]

you need a hobby, whatever it is.
i prefer to spend as many days as possible on the golf course- illl go try out clubs and see how they feel. i know i wontbuy anything, but its still nice to go swing a club as often as possible

They get costly when you get into carbon fiber stuff. We would be buying the same stuff essentially haha

[Veyron]

r6: that is insane. i would not pay 999/month for a car even if i had it. it's just a status symbol! i'd rather give that money to charity or invest it. i'm fine driving a cheap motorcycle, and would feel out of place in a 80k+ car no matter how rich i become. i am very money hungry, but only for power, not for status or the crappy boring women who come along with it.

Remind me how this myth came about that having money somehow makes women more interested in you?

Except, I suppose in NYC. There, its true.

[romothesavior]

I just want to point at that you, and others ITT, completely misread what he was saying. He wasn't suggesting WUSTL over Temple for Philly, he was suggesting WUSTL for St. Louis. It was one of his examples of "a strong regional school in a market you want to work in". As in, a school that is the best school in it's area. For example, WUSTL for St. Louis, Iowa for Iowa, Ohio State for Ohio, Washington for Washington, etc. But instead you get kids who go to Temple or Cardozo or American that are all in markets that are overcrowded by kids from better schools. American is a bad choice for everyone, always, that's just the way it is. But people want to ignore the evidence and advice of those who are actually knowledgeable and instead use anecdotal evidence from their uncle who graduated school 20 years ago. Or, worse, they talk to a partner at a law firm who is completely ignorant about the hiring situation. People think they are a good authority to listen to but what he doesn't tell you is that he has absolutely zero knowledge of the current hiring market.

+10000000

Thank you, buddy. This is exactly what I was saying.

[r6_philly]

r6: that is insane. i would not pay 999/month for a car even if i had it. it's just a status symbol! i'd rather give that money to charity or invest it. i'm fine driving a cheap motorcycle, and would feel out of place in a 80k+ car no matter how rich i become. i am very money hungry, but only for power, not for status or the crappy boring women who come along with it.

Remind me how this myth came about that having money somehow makes women more interested in you?

Except, I suppose in NYC. There, its true.

Well there is an logical explanation for it. Perhaps, in many people's cases, women are indeed interested in you, but your lack of money turns them away from choosing you as a good suitor. With money, women can be comfortable being attracted to you because there is actually a hint of a future possible.

[Patriot1208]

r6: that is insane. i would not pay 999/month for a car even if i had it. it's just a status symbol! i'd rather give that money to charity or invest it. i'm fine driving a cheap motorcycle, and would feel out of place in a 80k+ car no matter how rich i become. i am very money hungry, but only for power, not for status or the crappy boring women who come along with it.

Remind me how this myth came about that having money somehow makes women more interested in you?

Except, I suppose in NYC. There, its true.

I was at a strip club not that long ago in a midwestern city. In the VIP room there is a very obese man with a KNOCKOUT who was at least 20 years younger than him. She danced on him a little, they both got lap dances, and they left together. I'm just guessing she wasn't with him for his looks or charm.

[r6_philly]

I was at a strip club not that long ago in a midwestern city. In the VIP room there is a very obese man with a KNOCKOUT who was at least 20 years younger than him. She danced on him a little, they both got lap dances, and they left together. I'm just guessing she wasn't with him for his looks or charm.

You can get plenty of women to be interested in your money. So if you can control the money wisely, they will have to be interested in you.

[mt1042]

Thank you, buddy. This is exactly what I was saying.

I think people came after you because they did not feel your reference to Temple was accurate. I see what you mean, since UPenn is in Philly too going to a T2 there might be a bad call. However, it seems that most UPenn grads leave Philly upon graduation which is why Temple and Villanova places well there.

Anyways, I agree with your general thesis but like others I might disagree with one of the specific schools you mentioned. FWIW

[keg411]

Thank you, buddy. This is exactly what I was saying.

I think people came after you because they did not feel your reference to Temple was accurate. I see what you mean, since UPenn is in Philly too going to a T2 there might be a bad call. However, it seems that most UPenn grads leave Philly upon graduation which is why Temple and Villanova places well there.

Anyways, I agree with your general thesis but like others I might disagree with one of the specific schools you mentioned. FWIW

Philly isn't that saturated. It isn't great, but it isn't really the equivalent of Cardozo/American either. Caveat in that I haven't seen this year's SA class representation numbers, so maybe there are more "other" T14ers wanting this market than on would think. Honestly, I'd think ITE that the top 15% Temple kid and the top 15% WUSTL kid probably have similar job prospects -- except WUSTL costs more.

ETA: I do not go to Temple.

[Patriot1208]

Thank you, buddy. This is exactly what I was saying.

I think people came after you because they did not feel your reference to Temple was accurate. I see what you mean, since UPenn is in Philly too going to a T2 there might be a bad call. However, it seems that most UPenn grads leave Philly upon graduation which is why Temple and Villanova places well there.

Anyways, I agree with your general thesis but like others I might disagree with one of the specific schools you mentioned. FWIW

Philly isn't that saturated. It isn't great, but it isn't really the equivalent of Cardozo/American either. Caveat in that I haven't seen this year's SA class representation numbers, so maybe there are more "other" T14ers wanting this market than on would think. Honestly, I'd think ITE that the top 15% Temple kid and the top 15% WUSTL kid probably have similar job prospects -- except WUSTL costs more.

ETA: I do not go to Temple.

I really doubt 15% of temple is getting biglaw. And at least 25% are getting biglaw out of wustl.

[keg411]

WUSTL was barely placing 25% in BigLawl in the boom years.

[cowgirl_bebop]

r6: that is insane. i would not pay 999/month for a car even if i had it. it's just a status symbol! i'd rather give that money to charity or invest it. i'm fine driving a cheap motorcycle, and would feel out of place in a 80k+ car no matter how rich i become. i am very money hungry, but only for power, not for status or the crappy boring women who come along with it.

Remind me how this myth came about that having money somehow makes women more interested in you?

Except, I suppose in NYC. There, its true.

Well there is an logical explanation for it. Perhaps, in many people's cases, women are indeed interested in you, but your lack of money turns them away from choosing you as a good suitor. With money, women can be comfortable being attracted to you because there is actually a hint of a future possible.

I am a woman and I wholeheartedly cosign. A girl may think you are cute, funny, etc., but your being broke just send red flags up everywhere, especially if she is not or will not be for much longer.

[romothesavior]

WUSTL was barely placing 25% in BigLawl in the boom years.

First of all, this has nothing to do with WUSTL, so I dunno why it is being brought up. But I definitely would rather be top 15% at WUSTL than top 15% at Temple, all things being equal, and WUSTL would open infinitely more "geographic doors" than Temple. I think our class will be looking at 15-20%ish for biglaw, with another 10%ish for clerkships (including non-Art. III clerkships). Based on what I hear, I think it is fair to roughly guess that at least 1/3 of WUSTL my class will be getting a clerkship of some sort, an NLJ 250 firm (or decent non-NLJ firm), or a prestigious government job.

I know I get this rep for being a "WUSTL troll" but that could not be farther from the truth. I love my school and I give information and advice to prospectives about it, but I am perfectly aware of where we stand against other schools, and I generally do not advise people to go here at sticker (so I don't know where that came from). If you check my posting history, I have told countless people to pick other schools over WUSTL, and I think it is only a wise investment on a solid scholarship.

I do apologize for my use of Temple though, it is a decent school in a decent market, and probably shouldn't be lumped in with Cardozo, American, etc. I sure as hell wouldn't spend 6 figures on a degree from there though. Patriot nailed my crucial point: If you can't get into a top school (aka a T10 or T14, although I think CG are pretty darn regional), you should go to a strong regional school on scholarship, and "strong regional" doesn't include expensive T2/T3 schools in oversaturated markets.

[LLB2JD]

r6: that is insane. i would not pay 999/month for a car even if i had it. it's just a status symbol! i'd rather give that money to charity or invest it. i'm fine driving a cheap motorcycle, and would feel out of place in a 80k+ car no matter how rich i become. i am very money hungry, but only for power, not for status or the crappy boring women who come along with it.

Remind me how this myth came about that having money somehow makes women more interested in you?

Except, I suppose in NYC. There, its true.

Well there is an logical explanation for it. Perhaps, in many people's cases, women are indeed interested in you, but your lack of money turns them away from choosing you as a good suitor. With money, women can be comfortable being attracted to you because there is actually a hint of a future possible.

I am a woman and I wholeheartedly cosign. A girl may think you are cute, funny, etc., but your being broke just send red flags up everywhere, especially if she is not or will not be for much longer.

Some women would never admit a guy's financial status/potential has anything to do with anything. They'll swear from now till thy kingdom come that it is all about what is on the inside.

[romothesavior]

re: this discussion on women and money...

I saw a TV show one time where they tested this. They gave women pictures of guys with some details about them, including mediocre salaries and mediocre job titles and asked them to rate their physical attractiveness from 1-10. They compiled that data, and then did the same test but switched out only the salaries and job titles with 6-figure salaries and better job titles. Across the board, the men were rated higher for physical attractiveness with the better job titles/salaries than with the mediocre ones, and in some cases, the worse looking guys rated higher for physical attractiveness than the objectively better looking guys if they had higher salaries.

IIRC, I think they also did the same test for men, and their opinions of the women's attractiveness didn't change a whole lot based on the numbers.

Moral of the story: women are more likely to find a man physically attractive (not just a better potential mate, but actually more physically attractive) if they have money than without.

I could be misremembering this survey and I apologize if I am. I'll try to see if I can find the segment. Pretty interesting stuff.

[beachbum]

I agree with Romo and Patriot on just about everything. I also enjoy nice cars.

Continue.

[Cosmo Kramer]

Top 15% still seems safe for biglaw at Temple (current 1L) but it's also a pretty PI centered school so I'm not sure how much of those in that don't even try for biglaw.

[kublaikahn]

T-14's aren't 'dedicated' to public interest? Going to a non-T14 because of the school's perceived dedication is a good idea? I'm not buying your BS.

1. In my research, I have found they are not as dedicated. Maybe your research will come up with something else. But just because they are T14 doesn't mean they're amazing at everything and their programs should go unquestioned.
2. Yes. I want a school that has a program that I believe to be the most beneficial for me. Look at a school like Lewis & Clark. It is consistently cited as one of the best schools in the nation for public interest. Their clinics, summer opportunities, on-campus organizations, and phenomenal PI placement show a clear overwhelming dedication to the field.
3. I really don't care if you buy what I'm saying or not. Once again, I was simply responding to the OP's original question with my reasoning for not going T14. I'm sorry if we do not share the same values or reasoning, but it will not stop me from sharing my view on the subject.

I respect your steadfastness in this argument, ect. But it is a losing battle. If you want PI, the real reason to go lower rank (and the only reason IMO) is to lower the cost/debt, because lets face it, you are gonna be broke. If you can get a full ride to Yale, you would do it, right? But if the highest ranked school you can pull is Penn at sticker or William and Mary full ride, you would have a decision to make.

So my question to TLS is this, based on the real income bands in the market and your personal preferences:

Income 40-60k How much debt would be okay with you?
Income 80-110k Same?
Income $160+ Same?