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I'm currently applying ED to Penn with a 173/3.57. UG major: engineering.

I took the LSAT three times (average score 168) which is why I didn't ED NYU because of their policy of averaging scores.

I got into Michigan last week. Based on LSN data from last year, almost universally people with my numbers were able to get at least 50k from Michigan.

I visited Penn back in October and loved it. I'm really attracted to their Wharton certificate program and their entrepreneurship legal clinic among others. I want to work in NYC biglaw, possibly IP, not really looking into PI.

But is it dumb to turn down $$ from a peer school like Michigan and pay sticker at Penn. Should I withdraw my ED and change to RD and see how things play out with Michigan scholly and if there's a shot at getting into NYU RD?

Absolutely it would be dumb to turn down both Michigan $$ and NYU (which is very likely) for sticker at Penn. With an engineering degree, you also have a decent shot at Columbia.

Dumb move EDing to Penn with those numbers.

The problem now is if you change ED to RD at penn, your ass is waitlisted. But Mich with $$ is a lot better than Penn at sticker. And you do have a shot at NYU. You also have a shot at Columbia and Uchi.

Withdraw from that ED, but don't expect to get into Penn.

Desert Fox wrote:Dumb move EDing to Penn with those numbers.

The problem now is if you change ED to RD at penn, your ass is waitlisted. But Mich with $$ is a lot better than Penn at sticker. And you do have a shot at NYU. You also have a shot at Columbia and Uchi.

Withdraw from that ED, but don't expect to get into Penn.

shame since OP probably would have been able to get Penn to match or best Mich's offer.

if you dont withdraw your ED to penn you will be paying sticker at penn or sitting out this year.

Withdraw your ED, forget about Penn and see which school makes you the best offer

absolutazn87 wrote:I'm currently applying ED to Penn with a 173/3.57. UG major: engineering.

I took the LSAT three times (average score 168) which is why I didn't ED NYU because of their policy of averaging scores.

I got into Michigan last week. Based on LSN data from last year, almost universally people with my numbers were able to get at least 50k from Michigan.

I visited Penn back in October and loved it. I'm really attracted to their Wharton certificate program and their entrepreneurship legal clinic among others. I want to work in NYC biglaw, possibly IP, not really looking into PI.

But is it dumb to turn down $$ from a peer school like Michigan and pay sticker at Penn. Should I withdraw my ED and change to RD and see how things play out with Michigan scholly and if there's a shot at getting into NYU RD?

As long as you're willing to place Penn out of the picture entirely, this is a smart move.

Word your ED withdrawal carefully. Make up a reason like your finances have changed and you can no longer justify applying to a school without considering for aid.

2014 wrote:Word your ED withdrawal carefully. Make up a reason like your finances have changed and you can no longer justify applying to a school without considering for aid.

They may give him the usual "ED has nothing to do with how much merit aid is offered" line
but it's worth it to withdraw, since michigan $$ is objectively better anyways even than penn $$


question, did your $$ offer come with your acceptance to michigan?

s0ph1e2007 wrote:

2014 wrote:Word your ED withdrawal carefully. Make up a reason like your finances have changed and you can no longer justify applying to a school without considering for aid.

They may give him the usual "ED has nothing to do with how much merit aid is offered" line
but it's worth it to withdraw, since michigan $$ is objectively better anyways even than penn $$


question, did your $$ offer come with your acceptance to michigan?

Not yet. But if you do an LSN search for last year of people with LSATs from 172-174 and GPA 3.5-3.7, almost all have gotten $$. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed

http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/ap ... =3&type=jd

Btw, thanks guys for the advice! I'm withdrawing my ED from Penn tomorrow. Hopefully, we can still be friends on a regular decision basis

I take Michigan with $$ over Penn sticker by a LOT. Not close.

Good luck with RD! Maybe they won't penalize you. You are still interested after all. Although, you should probably have written a statement to include with your file on why you withdrew ED as well as calling.

For NYC, I'd take Penn sticker over Michigan with $50k, but with your numbers you can get NYU so I'd take that instead.

rayiner wrote:For NYC, I'd take Penn sticker over Michigan with $50k, but with your numbers you can get NYU so I'd take that instead.

This is starting to get ridiculous. You're almost reaching QO status with your recent anti-Michigan trolling.

rayiner wrote:For NYC, I'd take Penn sticker over Michigan with $50k, but with your numbers you can get NYU so I'd take that instead.

LMAO!!!! The US News ranking obsession has hit a new low! The crazy thing about this sentiment is that it's mainly based off of 1. US News and 2. autoadmit/tls hearsay

BruceWayne wrote:

rayiner wrote:For NYC, I'd take Penn sticker over Michigan with $50k, but with your numbers you can get NYU so I'd take that instead.

LMAO!!!! The US News ranking obsession has hit a new low! The crazy thing about this sentiment is that it's mainly based off of 1. US News and 2. autoadmit/tls hearsay

Penn and Michigan are still peer schools, right?

HeavenWood wrote:

BruceWayne wrote:

rayiner wrote:For NYC, I'd take Penn sticker over Michigan with $50k, but with your numbers you can get NYU so I'd take that instead.

LMAO!!!! The US News ranking obsession has hit a new low! The crazy thing about this sentiment is that it's mainly based off of 1. US News and 2. autoadmit/tls hearsay

Penn and Michigan are still peer schools, right?

Not according to rayiner, US News, and autoadmit, the absolute authorities on law school placement!!! LMAO

FlightoftheEarls wrote:

rayiner wrote:For NYC, I'd take Penn sticker over Michigan with $50k, but with your numbers you can get NYU so I'd take that instead.

This is starting to get ridiculous. You're almost reaching QO status with your recent anti-Michigan trolling.

Note the bolded.

$50k is good money but it's not game-changing IMHO. On the other hand, based on my information and public statistics, Penn places better into selective NYC firms.

If my goal were the NYC market, I'd certainly trade $50k for a measurably better shot at a V10 firm.

Call Penn admissions and explain the situation.

HeavenWood wrote:

BruceWayne wrote:

rayiner wrote:For NYC, I'd take Penn sticker over Michigan with $50k, but with your numbers you can get NYU so I'd take that instead.

LMAO!!!! The US News ranking obsession has hit a new low! The crazy thing about this sentiment is that it's mainly based off of 1. US News and 2. autoadmit/tls hearsay

Penn and Michigan are still peer schools, right?

I'm going to say yes, but consider where the rationale for that idea that Michigan and Penn are peer schools comes from: the TLS "sub-tiers chart" which has YHS > CCN > MVPB > DNCG. Isn't that more stupid and arbitrary than the USNWR ranking?

Markets and firms don't follow the TLS rankings. They have school preferences. NY firms like Penn and Duke better than their "sub-tier" would indicate, just as Chicago firms like NU better than its "sub-tier" indicates. These schools send a ton of grads into the same markets year after year and have bigger alumni bases in those markets which results in a stronger reputation in those markets.

When Wachtell decided to recruit at Penn but not Michigan, I don't think they hesitated thinking "but wait, TLS says that Michigan and Penn are peer schools!"

rayiner wrote:I'm going to say yes, but consider where the rationale for that idea that Michigan and Penn are peer schools comes from: the TLS "sub-tiers chart" which has YHS > CCN > MVPB > DNCG. Isn't that more stupid and arbitrary than the USNWR ranking?

Markets and firms don't follow the TLS rankings. They have school preferences. NY firms like Penn and Duke better than their "sub-tier" would indicate, just as Chicago firms like NU better than its "sub-tier" indicates. These schools send a ton of grads into the same markets year after year and have bigger alumni bases in those markets which results in a stronger reputation in those markets.

When Wachtell decided to recruit at Penn but not Michigan, I don't think they hesitated thinking "but wait, TLS says that Michigan and Penn are peer schools!"

Please if anything the idea that Michigan and Penn are peer schools comes more from hard data than TLS tiers. Frankly the NYU being with CC and Penn being above every school outside of HYS and CCN thing was generated by TLS. For years Michigan has actually been scoring higher than Penn in both lawyer/judge assessment scores (the most important stat that US News tracks) and even the less important academic assessment scores. Michigan was also ahead in the most recent NLJ placement numbers (the most recent reliable placement stats we have, unlike TLS hearsay and autoadmit threads). On top of that Michigan has for years out done Penn in federal clerkships and much much larger number of fed judges have Michigan JD degrees. Now I don't say all that to say that Michigan is better, but just that there's more than enough hard data to point towards Michigan and Penn being peers.

Hell when you start looking at the hard data and let the TLS tiers thing go this TLS sentiment of NYU being better than every top 14 except HYS and CC starts looking very shaky. The truth is that TLS (and rayiner in this example) have an extremely narrow definition of placement : NYC firm placement. That is the only measure that most of TLS looks at when determining placement. That's why he and a lot of TLS rates Columbia, NYU, Penn, Duke and Cornell so highly, and often say things like "UVA and Michigan place worse than Cornell and NYU" and "take NYU at sticker over 100K at Michigan or Boalt etc.".

rayiner wrote:

HeavenWood wrote:

BruceWayne wrote:

rayiner wrote:For NYC, I'd take Penn sticker over Michigan with $50k, but with your numbers you can get NYU so I'd take that instead.

LMAO!!!! The US News ranking obsession has hit a new low! The crazy thing about this sentiment is that it's mainly based off of 1. US News and 2. autoadmit/tls hearsay

Penn and Michigan are still peer schools, right?

I'm going to say yes, but consider where the rationale for that idea that Michigan and Penn are peer schools comes from: the TLS "sub-tiers chart" which has YHS > CCN > MVPB > DNCG. Isn't that more stupid and arbitrary than the USNWR ranking?

Markets and firms don't follow the TLS rankings. They have school preferences. NY firms like Penn and Duke better than their "sub-tier" would indicate, just as Chicago firms like NU better than its "sub-tier" indicates. These schools send a ton of grads into the same markets year after year and have bigger alumni bases in those markets which results in a stronger reputation in those markets.

When Wachtell decided to recruit at Penn but not Michigan, I don't think they hesitated thinking "but wait, TLS says that Michigan and Penn are peer schools!"

Yeah that makes a difference for the 1 Penn grad that has a shot at Wachtell.

absoluteazn87 wrote:I want to work in NYC biglaw

rayiner wrote:For NYC, I'd take Penn

BruceWayne wrote:The truth is that TLS (and rayiner in this example) have an extremely narrow definition of placement : NYC firm placement.

Why yes, the most pertinent metric for a guy who wants NYC biglaw is indeed NYC firm placement. Thank you for pointing that out.

BruceWayne wrote:

rayiner wrote:I'm going to say yes, but consider where the rationale for that idea that Michigan and Penn are peer schools comes from: the TLS "sub-tiers chart" which has YHS > CCN > MVPB > DNCG. Isn't that more stupid and arbitrary than the USNWR ranking?

Markets and firms don't follow the TLS rankings. They have school preferences. NY firms like Penn and Duke better than their "sub-tier" would indicate, just as Chicago firms like NU better than its "sub-tier" indicates. These schools send a ton of grads into the same markets year after year and have bigger alumni bases in those markets which results in a stronger reputation in those markets.

When Wachtell decided to recruit at Penn but not Michigan, I don't think they hesitated thinking "but wait, TLS says that Michigan and Penn are peer schools!"

Please if anything the idea that Michigan and Penn are peer schools comes more from hard data than TLS tiers. Frankly the NYU being with CC and Penn being above every school outside of HYS and CCN thing was generated by TLS. For years Michigan has actually been scoring higher than Penn in both lawyer/judge assessment scores (the most important stat that US News tracks) and even the less important academic assessment scores. Michigan was also ahead in the most recent NLJ placement numbers (the most recent reliable placement stats we have, unlike TLS hearsay and autoadmit threads). On top of that Michigan has for years out done Penn in federal clerkships and much much larger number of fed judges have Michigan JD degrees. Now I don't say all that to say that Michigan is better, but just that there's more than enough hard data to point towards Michigan and Penn being peers.

Hell when you start looking at the hard data and let the TLS tiers thing go this TLS sentiment of NYU being better than every top 14 except HYS and CC starts looking very shaky. The truth is that TLS (and rayiner in this example) have an extremely narrow definition of placement : NYC firm placement. That is the only measure that most of TLS looks at when determining placement. That's why he and a lot of TLS rates Columbia, NYU, Penn, Duke and Cornell so highly, and often say things like "UVA and Michigan place worse than Cornell and NYU" and "take NYU at sticker over 100K at Michigan or Boalt etc.".

Did you read the first words of his original post? It says "For NYC..". None of you have disputed that so far.

rayiner wrote:

HeavenWood wrote:

BruceWayne wrote:

rayiner wrote:For NYC, I'd take Penn sticker over Michigan with $50k, but with your numbers you can get NYU so I'd take that instead.

LMAO!!!! The US News ranking obsession has hit a new low! The crazy thing about this sentiment is that it's mainly based off of 1. US News and 2. autoadmit/tls hearsay

Penn and Michigan are still peer schools, right?

I'm going to say yes, but consider where the rationale for that idea that Michigan and Penn are peer schools comes from: the TLS "sub-tiers chart" which has YHS > CCN > MVPB > DNCG. Isn't that more stupid and arbitrary than the USNWR ranking?

Markets and firms don't follow the TLS rankings. They have school preferences. NY firms like Penn and Duke better than their "sub-tier" would indicate, just as Chicago firms like NU better than its "sub-tier" indicates. These schools send a ton of grads into the same markets year after year and have bigger alumni bases in those markets which results in a stronger reputation in those markets.

When Wachtell decided to recruit at Penn but not Michigan, I don't think they hesitated thinking "but wait, TLS says that Michigan and Penn are peer schools!"

You're actually pulling out the Wachtell argument? Wow.

Michigan consistently placed V10s around top 1/3 in better times, and this year we've placed NYC V10 (non-IP/LR, too) as low as median. Penn sends a higher percentage of their class to NYC and firms might be used to taking more Penn students because of that, but that's largely because Michigan has a much better spread of target markets. For the majority of people seeking biglaw at Michigan, NYC is and always has been the "safety" market. This "stronger" NYC placement that you're speaking of really isn't all that much to brag about, and it certainly doesn't demonstrate any particularly impressive attribute that Penn possesses and Michigan lacks. I bet your ass dollar for dollar that Michigan would place just as well in NYC if we channeled that market as hard as Penn does instead of sending so many others to DC/Chicago/Bay Area. The fact that Penn sends 61% into NYC and only 7% to the Pacific (LA/SF/Portland/Seattle) and 4% to the midwest (Chicago) may suggest to you that they have the edge in NYC placement; to me, I recognize that NYC is the easiest market and those other markets where Michigan places significantly better are all significantly tougher. I hardly think it's a stretch to suggest that these students wouldn't place just as easily into NYC if they wanted to fall back on NYC.

Your Penn sticker over Michigan at $50k argument is a joke.

BruceWayne wrote:

HeavenWood wrote:

BruceWayne wrote:

rayiner wrote:For NYC, I'd take Penn sticker over Michigan with $50k, but with your numbers you can get NYU so I'd take that instead.

LMAO!!!! The US News ranking obsession has hit a new low! The crazy thing about this sentiment is that it's mainly based off of 1. US News and 2. autoadmit/tls hearsay

Penn and Michigan are still peer schools, right?

Not according to rayiner, US News, and autoadmit, the absolute authorities on law school placement!!! LMAO

DBrooks, you lost your right to evaluate metric quality when you said pulling the same quality of girls made your ugly, fat ass as attractive as your roommate.