Is Fordham Worth Sticker? Forum

[rickynwhyc]

Wow. (No sarcasm)

Thank you for clearing that up, all this time I was thinking those %s were tied almost completely to grades. What a moronic assumption I made.

I knew soft factors would have a huge weight on employment, but I also naturally assume that the people in the top of their classes are also the ones that try to gain as much legal experience as possible during their time in LS, as they tend to be the most driven out of their peers. But I'm sure often there are exceptions.

Other than that, I agree with you, someone going into Fordham with grand hopes of BigLaw paying off their huge debt within a couple of years is going to be sorely disappointed. It's a huge risk.

[Columbia Law]

well the disparity b/w placement at NYU/Columbia v. Fordham is not any secret/not anything that people will argue over....it is big, and the long history of the differences in ranking b/w the schools clearly explains that...but i do think you need to keep a few things in mind with this...

1.) Columbia Law is a clear fordham-hater. i think its fair to say he's never said a positive thing about the school
2.) His, along with everyone else's guesses are just that...they are guesses (I dont say this to make you think that 40% at fordham will ever again get big law, but i think you get my point)
3.) Someone said it in another thread yesterday, but I think there is a huge misunderstanding about % of placement grads at big law firms. If the figure is 40%, that means that 40% of grads have big law jobs, not that top 40% have big law jobs. i know several people at fordham who are top 1/3 roughly who have jobs, and i know plenty of people who are top 10% that dont have jobs. i think this goes to the crux of the point of this post in the first place. is fordham worth sticker? for someone straight out of undergrad, with no savings, no work experience, and no real understanding of what $100k+ debt is? probably not. but for someone who has reasonable expectations, possibly some family financial help, and has the understanding of what debt is, then i think i'm comfortable saying that it is worth it. you need to understand that fordham gives out very little aid, so one way or another, you're likely going to be paying close to sticker in any event.

I don't hate Fordham at all. My brother goes there. I just don't think you have a good chance at ANY job from it.

[Frankie55]

So given that this thread seems to show broad consensus, what $$ would people say they would need to make it a viable choice, assuming you are an average straight from UG candidate with no rich uncles? According to their site, merit scholarships range from 5k to 25k a year.

[whymeohgodno]

Not unless you get a biglaw job upon graduation which maybe 15-20% of the students do? Probably less?

[whymeohgodno]

well the disparity b/w placement at NYU/Columbia v. Fordham is not any secret/not anything that people will argue over....it is big, and the long history of the differences in ranking b/w the schools clearly explains that...but i do think you need to keep a few things in mind with this...

1.) Columbia Law is a clear fordham-hater. i think its fair to say he's never said a positive thing about the school
2.) His, along with everyone else's guesses are just that...they are guesses (I dont say this to make you think that 40% at fordham will ever again get big law, but i think you get my point)
3.) Someone said it in another thread yesterday, but I think there is a huge misunderstanding about % of placement grads at big law firms. If the figure is 40%, that means that 40% of grads have big law jobs, not that top 40% have big law jobs. i know several people at fordham who are top 1/3 roughly who have jobs, and i know plenty of people who are top 10% that dont have jobs. i think this goes to the crux of the point of this post in the first place. is fordham worth sticker? for someone straight out of undergrad, with no savings, no work experience, and no real understanding of what $100k+ debt is? probably not. but for someone who has reasonable expectations, possibly some family financial help, and has the understanding of what debt is, then i think i'm comfortable saying that it is worth it. you need to understand that fordham gives out very little aid, so one way or another, you're likely going to be paying close to sticker in any event.

I don't hate Fordham at all. My brother goes there. I just don't think you have a good chance at ANY job from it.

Well I do know someone who graduated Fordham top 10% (but not law review) and is making 120k/year.

[Frankie55]

So you're saying even if they offer half tuition, with the possibility of more aid pending FAFSA, it's still not worth it, since no one can guarantee top 15% performance? Won't a job at a mid level firm be enough to pay off about 80k in debt? Missing out on BigLaw doesn't necessarily mean 40k a year/unemployed, right? At least not as much as Cardozo/Brooklyn/St. John's?

[Columbia Law]

I'm in at a midlaw firm but I had a family connection. If you graduate full debt from Fordham, you're fucked (i.e. <40K). From what I hear, it's about 5%.

[1Levening2013]

I'm in at a midlaw firm but I had a family connection. If you graduate full debt from Fordham, you're fucked (i.e. <40K). From what I hear, it's about 5%.

this has nothing do with fordham, or columbia law for that matter, but i love seeing comments where people say <$40k. i mean come on. you can make more than that being a waiter at a decent restaurant in nyc, among many other entry level jobs. i know the usual comeback is that employers have hard time hiring people with jds due to flight risk etc. (and bring on the article about the fordham grad who is now a cleaning lady), but seriously, you can't tell me that a majority of people at any 'decent' law school are just that 'unemployable' at a salary better than $35k

[Blindmelon]

I'm in at a midlaw firm but I had a family connection. If you graduate full debt from Fordham, you're fucked (i.e. <40K). From what I hear, it's about 5%.

It has to be more than 5%. If its isn't than BU is destroying Fordham employment-wise, which is doubtful. I can rattle off at least 35 people with bigfirm jobs just out of the people I know which is 12% right there and I don't know everyone in the class.... while its bad at these level schools, your level of exaggeration isn't really helpful.

This is with a caveat that I tend to hang out with people that work constantly and have good grades -

[Blindmelon]

This isn't to say I'd pay sticker for Fordham. I was pissing myself last year thinking I was going to graduate from BU with 120k debt.

[XxSpyKEx]

Honestly, top 5% safe for biglaw. 10% for a good chance.

What would you say those numbers are for Columbia or NYU?

I would like to know this too.

A while ago there was a thread in the legal employment forum where NYU and Columbia students posted up exact numbers. I don't remember them, or really care, but it was roughy 70% of all OCI participants, including transfers (and columbia has a LOT of transfers), at each of the schools that got at least 1 offer out of OCI. Obviously, that doesn't include the part of the class that didn't participate in OCI, so that isn't the percentage of the total class that got biglaw. But it also doesn't include people who got law firm jobs outside of OCI (e.g. through mailings).

[Columbia Law]

I'm in at a midlaw firm but I had a family connection. If you graduate full debt from Fordham, you're fucked (i.e. <40K). From what I hear, it's about 5%.

this has nothing do with fordham, or columbia law for that matter, but i love seeing comments where people say <$40k. i mean come on. you can make more than that being a waiter at a decent restaurant in nyc, among many other entry level jobs. i know the usual comeback is that employers have hard time hiring people with jds due to flight risk etc. (and bring on the article about the fordham grad who is now a cleaning lady), but seriously, you can't tell me that a majority of people at any 'decent' law school are just that 'unemployable' at a salary better than $35k

Look at your screen name. You have NO CLUE what you're talking about. I've gone through all of this. ITE, Fordham grads will STRUGGLE go get a 40k job.

[rickynwhyc]

Wow, does ANYONE agree with what Columbia Law is saying?

I'm not saying hes lying, I'm actually inclined to believe him, and that is what scares the living sh** out of me.

Struggle to get a 40k job? Unless you're top 5%? That is ridiculous. We should all just go to trade school and be plumbers and carpenters then. Recession proof, job security, and a lot of room for advancement into master craftsmanship. Am I right!??!

Is there ANY T30 school that has decent employment prospects ITE? Or is it just T14 now? Should everyone who can't make T14 give up any shot at practicing Law, and just be a waiter or a teacher and make 40-60K?

[whymeohgodno]

Wow, does ANYONE agree with what Columbia Law is saying?

I'm not saying hes lying, I'm actually inclined to believe him, and that is what scares the living sh** out of me.

Struggle to get a 40k job? Unless you're top 5%? That is ridiculous. We should all just go to trade school and be plumbers and carpenters then. Recession proof, job security, and a lot of room for advancement into master craftsmanship. Am I right!??!

Is there ANY T30 school that has decent employment prospects ITE? Or is it just T14 now? Should everyone who can't make T14 give up any shot at practicing Law, and just be a waiter or a teacher and make 40-60K?

It's just Yale now. Below Yale and you might as well apply for a job at McDonalds.

[rickynwhyc]

Wow, does ANYONE agree with what Columbia Law is saying?

I'm not saying hes lying, I'm actually inclined to believe him, and that is what scares the living sh** out of me.

Struggle to get a 40k job? Unless you're top 5%? That is ridiculous. We should all just go to trade school and be plumbers and carpenters then. Recession proof, job security, and a lot of room for advancement into master craftsmanship. Am I right!??!

Is there ANY T30 school that has decent employment prospects ITE? Or is it just T14 now? Should everyone who can't make T14 give up any shot at practicing Law, and just be a waiter or a teacher and make 40-60K?

It's just Yale now. Below Yale and you might as well apply for a job at McDonalds.

Normally I'd brush that off as distasteful sarcasm but it seems to be ringing true to most people on this forum

[Columbia Law]

Wow, does ANYONE agree with what Columbia Law is saying?

I'm not saying hes lying, I'm actually inclined to believe him, and that is what scares the living sh** out of me.

Struggle to get a 40k job? Unless you're top 5%? That is ridiculous. We should all just go to trade school and be plumbers and carpenters then. Recession proof, job security, and a lot of room for advancement into master craftsmanship. Am I right!??!

Is there ANY T30 school that has decent employment prospects ITE? Or is it just T14 now? Should everyone who can't make T14 give up any shot at practicing Law, and just be a waiter or a teacher and make 40-60K?

No, it's not ridiculous. It's about paying for school. The ONLY ONLY ONLY way I would recommend going to Fordham is if you have a FT job and are going to the PT program. You can advance your career and have SOME connections when you come out. Maybe if you're with a company for 4 years, they'll bump you up after you get a JD. But then why the fuck would you need a JD? Law school is a TERRIBLE decision for anyone paying. Even if you have a full ride, you still will have to pay living expenses. Do you know that if you're lucky, you'll only pay 150% of your loan back?

Fordham sticker is a TERRIBLE decision. So many T14 grads are straight UNEMPLOYED. UNEMPLOYED! Fordham students will be lucky if they get a JOB. Why would you be shocked that many many many/most Fordham grads will have a 40k job with 200k+ debt with no chance at paying it back?

[whymeohgodno]

Wow, does ANYONE agree with what Columbia Law is saying?

I'm not saying hes lying, I'm actually inclined to believe him, and that is what scares the living sh** out of me.

Struggle to get a 40k job? Unless you're top 5%? That is ridiculous. We should all just go to trade school and be plumbers and carpenters then. Recession proof, job security, and a lot of room for advancement into master craftsmanship. Am I right!??!

Is there ANY T30 school that has decent employment prospects ITE? Or is it just T14 now? Should everyone who can't make T14 give up any shot at practicing Law, and just be a waiter or a teacher and make 40-60K?

No, it's not ridiculous. It's about paying for school. The ONLY ONLY ONLY way I would recommend going to Fordham is if you have a FT job and are going to the PT program. You can advance your career and have SOME connections when you come out. Maybe if you're with a company for 4 years, they'll bump you up after you get a JD. But then why the fuck would you need a JD? Law school is a TERRIBLE decision for anyone paying. Even if you have a full ride, you still will have to pay living expenses. Do you know that if you're lucky, you'll only pay 150% of your loan back?

Fordham sticker is a TERRIBLE decision. So many T14 grads are straight UNEMPLOYED. UNEMPLOYED! Fordham students will be lucky if they get a JOB. Why would you be shocked that many many many/most Fordham grads will have a 40k job with 200k+ debt with no chance at paying it back?

I think top 10% at Fordham can feel relatively safe...

[XxSpyKEx]

Wow, does ANYONE agree with what Columbia Law is saying?

I'm not saying hes lying, I'm actually inclined to believe him, and that is what scares the living sh** out of me.

Struggle to get a 40k job? Unless you're top 5%? That is ridiculous. We should all just go to trade school and be plumbers and carpenters then. Recession proof, job security, and a lot of room for advancement into master craftsmanship. Am I right!??!

Is there ANY T30 school that has decent employment prospects ITE? Or is it just T14 now? Should everyone who can't make T14 give up any shot at practicing Law, and just be a waiter or a teacher and make 40-60K?

It's a tough market. A tougher one than you give are giving it credit for. The thing is after 2L OCI, finding any paying legal job becomes tough because there aren't a heck of a lot of them out there. It's not like biglaw stopped hiring and all other law firms kept up their hiring. The recession affects almost everyone. Your trade schools "plumber" and "carpenter" jobs aren't rescission proof either. After the housing market plummeted people started putting off things like home improvements or repairs in houses that don't really need it (e.g. if you have an extra house now that no one is willing to pay you anything decent for). It's crazy to even think that t14 students will have “decent employment prospects” simply because they attend a t14. I personally know a number of 3Ls at my school (a t14) that don’t have any paying legal employment lined up for after graduation. It’s not like your school and grades are going to convince a legal employer to take on an attorney that they have no need for (i.e. when firms are laying attorneys off because they can’t give them enough work, they aren’t all of a sudden going to hire you because you have a 3.49GPA and go to Fordham). But at the same time, I don’t think that this means that you should “give up any shot at practicing Law, and just be a waiter or a teacher and make 40-60K” because first off you probably won’t even find a job as a teacher ITE, and things eventually have to pick back up. It’s not like the legal profession is just going to die after this economy. People will always need lawyers. You just have to be more cautious entering into law school because the large law firm model is changing (it is shrinking in size/disappearing since their clients can no longer afford their high billable rates because the corporate clients themselves aren’t making any money). That means taking on something like $200k in debt to attend 3 years of law school at a school like Fordham might not be such a great idea anymore. Keep in mind the less debt you come out with, the more flexibility you have (i.e. paying off $40K in debt with a $50K /year salary isn’t that bad, paying off $200K in debt with a $50k /year salary is impossible).

[lawschoollll]

No.

/thread

Edit: Sorry that was harsh. I wouldn't go at sticker, but I might go with a full ride, living expenses (including swanky midtown apt. rent + driver) paid, and a guaranteed non-law job lined up for post-graduation.

[Columbia Law]

Wow, does ANYONE agree with what Columbia Law is saying?

I'm not saying hes lying, I'm actually inclined to believe him, and that is what scares the living sh** out of me.

Struggle to get a 40k job? Unless you're top 5%? That is ridiculous. We should all just go to trade school and be plumbers and carpenters then. Recession proof, job security, and a lot of room for advancement into master craftsmanship. Am I right!??!

Is there ANY T30 school that has decent employment prospects ITE? Or is it just T14 now? Should everyone who can't make T14 give up any shot at practicing Law, and just be a waiter or a teacher and make 40-60K?

No, it's not ridiculous. It's about paying for school. The ONLY ONLY ONLY way I would recommend going to Fordham is if you have a FT job and are going to the PT program. You can advance your career and have SOME connections when you come out. Maybe if you're with a company for 4 years, they'll bump you up after you get a JD. But then why the fuck would you need a JD? Law school is a TERRIBLE decision for anyone paying. Even if you have a full ride, you still will have to pay living expenses. Do you know that if you're lucky, you'll only pay 150% of your loan back?

Fordham sticker is a TERRIBLE decision. So many T14 grads are straight UNEMPLOYED. UNEMPLOYED! Fordham students will be lucky if they get a JOB. Why would you be shocked that many many many/most Fordham grads will have a 40k job with 200k+ debt with no chance at paying it back?

I think top 10% at Fordham can feel relatively safe...

No shit. 10% will get something. What about the other 90%? I'd say Fordham is the HARDEST school to do well in because the people are pretty smart (166-168), and each one of them is gunning for the top. You look at T14 schools--many are laid back (or were before ITE). Look at horseshit schools (in St. John's everyone might be gunning but 75% don't have the intelligence). At Fordham, everyone is smart and fighting to the 10%.

[Columbia Law]

Wow, does ANYONE agree with what Columbia Law is saying?

I'm not saying hes lying, I'm actually inclined to believe him, and that is what scares the living sh** out of me.

Struggle to get a 40k job? Unless you're top 5%? That is ridiculous. We should all just go to trade school and be plumbers and carpenters then. Recession proof, job security, and a lot of room for advancement into master craftsmanship. Am I right!??!

Is there ANY T30 school that has decent employment prospects ITE? Or is it just T14 now? Should everyone who can't make T14 give up any shot at practicing Law, and just be a waiter or a teacher and make 40-60K?

It's a tough market. A tougher one than you give are giving it credit for. The thing is after 2L OCI, finding any paying legal job becomes tough because there aren't a heck of a lot of them out there. It's not like biglaw stopped hiring and all other law firms kept up their hiring. The recession affects almost everyone. Your trade schools "plumber" and "carpenter" jobs aren't rescission proof either. After the housing market plummeted people started putting off things like home improvements or repairs in houses that don't really need it (e.g. if you have an extra house now that no one is willing to pay you anything decent for). It's crazy to even think that t14 students will have “decent employment prospects” simply because they attend a t14. I personally know a number of 3Ls at my school (a t14) that don’t have any paying legal employment lined up for after graduation. It’s not like your school and grades are going to convince a legal employer to take on an attorney that they have no need for (i.e. when firms are laying attorneys off because they can’t give them enough work, they aren’t all of a sudden going to hire you because you have a 3.49GPA and go to Fordham). But at the same time, I don’t think that this means that you should “give up any shot at practicing Law, and just be a waiter or a teacher and make 40-60K” because first off you probably won’t even find a job as a teacher ITE, and things eventually have to pick back up. It’s not like the legal profession is just going to die after this economy. People will always need lawyers. You just have to be more cautious entering into law school because the large law firm model is changing (it is shrinking in size/disappearing since their clients can no longer afford their high billable rates because the corporate clients themselves aren’t making any money). That means taking on something like $200k in debt to attend 3 years of law school at a school like Fordham might not be such a great idea anymore. Keep in mind the less debt you come out with, the more flexibility you have (i.e. paying off $40K in debt with a $50K /year salary isn’t that bad, paying off $200K in debt with a $50k /year salary is impossible).

TITCR. After you strike out at OCI, it becomes "eat what you kill." I'd say 50%+ of people in law school come from well off families, were taught their entire life to do good in school, and neglected at least SOME part of a social life to do well in school. These are the people who get hurt. If you have a hint of anti-social in you, it's going to show in the real world. The world we live in presents an absurd assumption that if you do well in school then you will have a job waiting. After OCI, it's about selling yourself--which most law students can't do.

[Black-Blue]

No shit. 10% will get something. What about the other 90%? I'd say Fordham is the HARDEST school to do well in because the people are pretty smart (166-168), and each one of them is gunning for the top. You look at T14 schools--many are laid back (or were before ITE). Look at horseshit schools (in St. John's everyone might be gunning but 75% don't have the intelligence). At Fordham, everyone is smart and fighting to the 10%.

I think GWU would be the hardest. Their LSAT median is higher than Fordham's, but DC has far fewer biglaw slots than NY.

[Kswizzie]

I hate it when people act as though the 2009 stats were unaffected by ITE. There was a huge difference between 2008 and 2009 http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 7904889529

[Columbia Law]

No shit. 10% will get something. What about the other 90%? I'd say Fordham is the HARDEST school to do well in because the people are pretty smart (166-168), and each one of them is gunning for the top. You look at T14 schools--many are laid back (or were before ITE). Look at horseshit schools (in St. John's everyone might be gunning but 75% don't have the intelligence). At Fordham, everyone is smart and fighting to the 10%.

I think GWU would be the hardest. Their LSAT median is higher than Fordham's, but DC has far fewer biglaw slots than NY.

[1Levening2013]

I'm in at a midlaw firm but I had a family connection. If you graduate full debt from Fordham, you're fucked (i.e. <40K). From what I hear, it's about 5%.

this has nothing do with fordham, or columbia law for that matter, but i love seeing comments where people say <$40k. i mean come on. you can make more than that being a waiter at a decent restaurant in nyc, among many other entry level jobs. i know the usual comeback is that employers have hard time hiring people with jds due to flight risk etc. (and bring on the article about the fordham grad who is now a cleaning lady), but seriously, you can't tell me that a majority of people at any 'decent' law school are just that 'unemployable' at a salary better than $35k

Look at your screen name. You have NO CLUE what you're talking about. I've gone through all of this. ITE, Fordham grads will STRUGGLE go get a 40k job.

i have no clue!?!? dude, have you ever even held a full time job in your life (and i'm not talking about a sales associate position at abercrombie)

since you clearly have not seen any of my previous posts (despite my seeing yours--considering you always seem to find your way into anything have to do with fordham, and then go right ahead and shit on it), i'm someone who has 6+yrs of work experience in a field that has gone under as much/if not more turmoil than the legal field (to be honest, i'm tired of of all of this lawyer-whining). i think i know a little bit more about what it's like to deal with job prospects/interviewing/hiring/networking/etc.

i don't think you truly have any understanding what is market-pay for any job outside of big and mid(shit)law. anyone who sits somewhere making $30k/yr with their JD is simply doing themselves an injustice--you can find more lucrative work outside of the legal field that will help you chip away at this debt. just b/c you have a JD does not mean you are branded, and doomed to legal work for the rest of your life. i candidly admitted previously in this thread that i do not think that paying sticker at fordham is for everyone, but throwing around these 5% or <$40k figures is just plain ridiculous. until you have some hard evidence (and i'm not talking anecdotes from your brother (who you should talk some serious sense into if this is really the way you feel)), quit your BS posts, its getting tired

i had a bit more of a rant to go on, but i'll just say (as someone else pointed out), there is no need to go out and try to bring others down on these forums since you haven't experienced the success yourself that is so widely talked about on these boards, especially for columbia people