Top Law Schools

Obviously northwestern is superior, but by how much? If the option was to go to northwestern, but deal with hour long commutes and a MUCH higher debt leaving law school (due also to cost of living) versus min/wustl with the much lower ending debt (hopefully some scholly and obvious lower cost of living), what would be the best long term?

Consider also I have two kids and would be very happy eventually being employed in a smaller market so long as my earnings were solid relative to that market. For example I'd be happy earning much less but living in Kansas City versus more and living in Chicago. I do like the idea of being able to have some say in my destiny after graduation as well.

The Chicago market is terrible right now. I think someone counted all the SA positions available at NALP firms and it was something like 950 in 07 and something like 300 last year.

NW will def give you a better chance at a job than wustl or minn. People at median get jobs through OCI at NW but not at WUSTL or Minn....
FWIW, my friend is top 10% at iowa, applied ONLY to chicago firms and 3 callbacks and no offers. Most of the jobs are going to people who are at NW/Mich/Uchicago.

With that being said, the secondary markets that you mentioned like KC or STL really want TIES. Grades are an important factor, but they really want to see someone who has ties to the area. Not being from KC will hurt you a lot when you are applying to those firms. Grades are necessary but not sufficient in secondary markets.

NU




































By this much.

thexfactor wrote:The Chicago market is terrible right now. I think someone counted all the SA positions available at NALP firms and it was something like 950 in 07 and something like 300 last year.
NW will def give you a better chance at a job than wustl or minn. People at median get jobs through OCI at NW but not at WUSTL or Minn....
FWIW, my friend is top 10% at iowa, applied ONLY to chicago firms and 3 callbacks and no offers. Most of the jobs are going to people who are at NW/Mich/Uchicago.

With that being said, the secondary markets that you mentioned like KC or STL really want TIES. Grades are an important factor, but they really want to see someone who has ties to the area. Not being from KC will hurt you a lot when you are applying to those firms. Grades are necessary but not sufficient in secondary markets.

Ouch.

So TCR is that people from Wash U/Minn are fucked? Their local markets want ties, and the nearest big market is in the shit.

This ties thing continues to baffle me. Is it like URM in law school admissions, where you get a boost but it isn't the end of the world if you're not from a city? Or would a Kansas City law firm seriously throw out a top 10% WUSTL grad who interviews well in favor of a bottom 10% WUSTL grad who grew up in KC, went to undergrad in KC, lost his virginity in KC, and has KC tattoos?

Let me ask this another way. Are my job prospects as a law grad limited to one of these four locations: where I grew up, where i went to undergrad, where I went to law school, and New York which is the only city that doesn't seem to give a shit about ties at least according to TLS? As in, those are the four cities and there are no other options because I have inadequate ties to any other location.

Bumi wrote:Let me ask this another way. Are my job prospects as a law grad limited to one of these four locations: where I grew up, where i went to undergrad, where I went to law school, and New York which is the only city that doesn't seem to give a shit about ties at least according to TLS? As in, those are the four cities and there are no other options because I have inadequate ties to any other location.

If this is true, could be worse: you could have grown up, gone to undergrad, and law school, all in New York.

If you want to to work in Chicago then the Minnesotas and WUSTLs of the world don't belong in the same conversation as NU. Outside the Chicago market I have a hard time believing the added cost of the NU degree is worth it, at least if we're talking about the Twin Cities, KC, St Louis, or whatever.

For what it's worth when it comes to ties, I think the fact that you have kids sends a message of stability. For better or worse it is a lot less likely that someone with a family will take a job in a secondary market then jump ship at the first sign of a better opportunity. That's what people are really afraid of.

I probably could have gotten off NU's waitlist if I had wanted to, but I didn't really put any effort into it because I wasn't going to pay sticker there over a scholly at Minnesota / WUSTL / Illinois. Cost, and the fact that I would rather live in Minneapolis than Chicago were the deciding factors for me. Then again I have very close ties to a small market with no law school of its own that nobody wants to work in, so I am less stressy over jobs than some other people.

If you get enough money from WUSTL/UMN, it's worth considering.

thexfactor wrote:The Chicago market is terrible right now. I think someone counted all the SA positions available at NALP firms and it was something like 950 in 07 and something like 300 last year.

NW will def give you a better chance at a job than wustl or minn. People at median get jobs through OCI at NW but not at WUSTL or Minn....
FWIW, my friend is top 10% at iowa, applied ONLY to chicago firms and 3 callbacks and no offers. Most of the jobs are going to people who are at NW/Mich/Uchicago.

With that being said, the secondary markets that you mentioned like KC or STL really want TIES. Grades are an important factor, but they really want to see someone who has ties to the area. Not being from KC will hurt you a lot when you are applying to those firms. Grades are necessary but not sufficient in secondary markets.

I spent second grade through graduation in Kansas City, and went to undergrad at University of Missouri. Then I worked in KC for 7 years, opened a business in the NY market, had to move out this way for a couple years. Are these the sorts of ties they would want?

Bumi wrote:This ties thing continues to baffle me. Is it like URM in law school admissions, where you get a boost but it isn't the end of the world if you're not from a city? Or would a Kansas City law firm seriously throw out a top 10% WUSTL grad who interviews well in favor of a bottom 10% WUSTL grad who grew up in KC, went to undergrad in KC, lost his virginity in KC, and has KC tattoos?

Let me ask this another way. Are my job prospects as a law grad limited to one of these four locations: where I grew up, where i went to undergrad, where I went to law school, and New York which is the only city that doesn't seem to give a shit about ties at least according to TLS? As in, those are the four cities and there are no other options because I have inadequate ties to any other location.

No but you are bringing up examples that are just not realistic. I am talking about competing in KC with 1 person who is top 10% and the other who is top 20% and has connections to KC.
Ties to the area is a pretty big factor in KC, STL and other smaller midwastern cities.
Im from the midwest and the firm i interned at over the summer was the same way. They first look at the best local school. Then they give preference to anyone who has a connection to the area.

Remnantofisrael wrote:

thexfactor wrote:The Chicago market is terrible right now. I think someone counted all the SA positions available at NALP firms and it was something like 950 in 07 and something like 300 last year.

NW will def give you a better chance at a job than wustl or minn. People at median get jobs through OCI at NW but not at WUSTL or Minn....
FWIW, my friend is top 10% at iowa, applied ONLY to chicago firms and 3 callbacks and no offers. Most of the jobs are going to people who are at NW/Mich/Uchicago.

With that being said, the secondary markets that you mentioned like KC or STL really want TIES. Grades are an important factor, but they really want to see someone who has ties to the area. Not being from KC will hurt you a lot when you are applying to those firms. Grades are necessary but not sufficient in secondary markets.

I spent second grade through graduation in Kansas City, and went to undergrad at University of Missouri. Then I worked in KC for 7 years, opened a business in the NY market, had to move out this way for a couple years. Are these the sorts of ties they would want?

yes, that is exactly what they want. A lot of midwastern firms want ties to the area.

It's not just local firms that want ties either. Every interviewer at Kirkland asked me whether I was from Chicago and why I wanted to stay here.

thexfactor wrote:No but you are bringing up examples that are just not realistic.

Um, that's the point. Do you write that on hypo exams?

thexfactor wrote:

Remnantofisrael wrote:

thexfactor wrote:The Chicago market is terrible right now. I think someone counted all the SA positions available at NALP firms and it was something like 950 in 07 and something like 300 last year.

NW will def give you a better chance at a job than wustl or minn. People at median get jobs through OCI at NW but not at WUSTL or Minn....
FWIW, my friend is top 10% at iowa, applied ONLY to chicago firms and 3 callbacks and no offers. Most of the jobs are going to people who are at NW/Mich/Uchicago.

With that being said, the secondary markets that you mentioned like KC or STL really want TIES. Grades are an important factor, but they really want to see someone who has ties to the area. Not being from KC will hurt you a lot when you are applying to those firms. Grades are necessary but not sufficient in secondary markets.

I spent second grade through graduation in Kansas City, and went to undergrad at University of Missouri. Then I worked in KC for 7 years, opened a business in the NY market, had to move out this way for a couple years. Are these the sorts of ties they would want?

yes, that is exactly what they want. A lot of midwastern firms want ties to the area.

So assume I go to northwestern, intern in chicago somewhere, etc. Will that kill my chances of a Kansas City/St.Louis/whatever job? I ask because I have a family and 10 weeks each summer away from my family would suck if I basically have to work for the firm I will inevitably work at. I thought I had heard there wasn't a necessary correlation between interning at a particular firm and eventually being employed by the same, but it seems like maybe I was mistaken. I know that firms in chicago have offices elsewhere, etc. and I get that if you interned at a firm you'd have a better chance at said firm- I just didn't realize it was a significant difference maker.

By the way, thanks for all the info.

Also, just for my sanity, the common thought is I'd have a greater chance getting a decent job in KC, STL, perhaps even minnesota, if I went to Northwestern over minny/wustl? What if I interned in chicago and not those other cities?

rayiner wrote:It's not just local firms that want ties either. Every interviewer at Kirkland asked me whether I was from Chicago and why I wanted to stay here.

I feel like in a city as big as Chicago, you can get away with a good answer to this part. (I did fine in SF/LA interviews with this despite not being from either of those cities) though, whereas smaller secondaries (let's say Sacramento) basically require you to have grown up there, have a spouse there, and be on a 30-yr mortgage there before they give you a CB.

Let me put it this way: I grew up about 2-3 hours from St. Louis and I am treated like a foreigner by the locals. I thought the whole "ties" thing was overrated, but I was wrong. I honestly am having doubts as to whether I made the right call to go here, and this is the main reason why. I want to practice in St. Louis, but I'm not from St. Louis, and it is a big concern to employers.

So take that FWIW. YMMV.

romothesavior wrote:Let me put it this way: I grew up about 2-3 hours from St. Louis and I am treated like a foreigner by the locals. I thought the whole "ties" thing was overrated, but I was wrong. I honestly am having doubts as to whether I made the right call to go here, and this is the main reason why. I want to practice in St. Louis, but I'm not from St. Louis, and it is a big concern to employers.

So take that FWIW. YMMV.

Let's make top 10% and hit NY for models and bottles duh

I faced this same decision (minus UMN, since I withdrew from them well before WUSTL).

I have STRONG ties to both KC and STL. About as strong as you can get, really, to KC, and almost as strong to STL.

I got shut out of both KC and STL at OCI. Got offers in three other sought after markets that "care about ties," to which I had no ties. I'm very happy how OCI worked out, but it would have been nice to have had the option to be home (even if it wouldn't have changed my decision of where I went).

Sauer Grapes wrote:I faced this same decision (minus UMN, since I withdrew from them well before WUSTL).

I have STRONG ties to both KC and STL. About as strong as you can get, really, to KC, and almost as strong to STL.

I got shut out of both KC and STL at OCI. Got offers in three other sought after markets that "care about ties," to which I had no ties. I'm very happy how OCI worked out, but it would have been nice to have had the option to be home (even if it wouldn't have changed my decision of where I went).

Wait, you did OCI already? Didn't you start in like June?

romothesavior wrote:

Sauer Grapes wrote:I faced this same decision (minus UMN, since I withdrew from them well before WUSTL).

I have STRONG ties to both KC and STL. About as strong as you can get, really, to KC, and almost as strong to STL.

I got shut out of both KC and STL at OCI. Got offers in three other sought after markets that "care about ties," to which I had no ties. I'm very happy how OCI worked out, but it would have been nice to have had the option to be home (even if it wouldn't have changed my decision of where I went).

Wait, you did OCI already? Didn't you start in like June?

May... and yes, I did OCI already. NU considers us 2L's now, although I think that's kind of silly, I will have one less class than the regular 2012 class by the end of May.

Sauer Grapes wrote:I faced this same decision (minus UMN, since I withdrew from them well before WUSTL).

I have STRONG ties to both KC and STL. About as strong as you can get, really, to KC, and almost as strong to STL.

I got shut out of both KC and STL at OCI. Got offers in three other sought after markets that "care about ties," to which I had no ties. I'm very happy how OCI worked out, but it would have been nice to have had the option to be home (even if it wouldn't have changed my decision of where I went).

Mind if you tell us the other markets? Or just me via PM?

rad law wrote:

Sauer Grapes wrote:I faced this same decision (minus UMN, since I withdrew from them well before WUSTL).

I have STRONG ties to both KC and STL. About as strong as you can get, really, to KC, and almost as strong to STL.

I got shut out of both KC and STL at OCI. Got offers in three other sought after markets that "care about ties," to which I had no ties. I'm very happy how OCI worked out, but it would have been nice to have had the option to be home (even if it wouldn't have changed my decision of where I went).

Mind if you tell us the other markets? Or just me via PM?

I'd like to know too. Also would be interested in about where you were in class rank. Also, you are WUSTL right?

romothesavior wrote:Let me put it this way: I grew up about 2-3 hours from St. Louis and I am treated like a foreigner by the locals. I thought the whole "ties" thing was overrated, but I was wrong. I honestly am having doubts as to whether I made the right call to go here, and this is the main reason why. I want to practice in St. Louis, but I'm not from St. Louis, and it is a big concern to employers.

So take that FWIW. YMMV.

Have you gotten "Where did you go to high school?" yet?

But seriously, the popularity and cultural significance of that question around here is a pretty good indicator of how insular St. Louis is. Whoever called it the "biggest small town in America" was dead-on.

I hope you're still enjoying WUSTL, though. St. Louis can be tough to crack for non-natives, but I gotta believe local firms will open their doors to good grades from WUSTL.

beachbum wrote:

romothesavior wrote:Let me put it this way: I grew up about 2-3 hours from St. Louis and I am treated like a foreigner by the locals. I thought the whole "ties" thing was overrated, but I was wrong. I honestly am having doubts as to whether I made the right call to go here, and this is the main reason why. I want to practice in St. Louis, but I'm not from St. Louis, and it is a big concern to employers.

So take that FWIW. YMMV.

Have you gotten "Where did you go to high school?" yet?

But seriously, the popularity and cultural significance of that question around here is a pretty good indicator of how insular St. Louis is. Whoever called it the "biggest small town in America" was dead-on.

I hope you're still enjoying WUSTL, though. St. Louis can be tough to crack for non-natives, but I gotta believe local firms will open their doors to good grades from WUSTL.

Haha yes, I get it just about every time I go to a networking event, to a bar, etc. I hear it on a pretty much weekly basis. I f***ing hate it.

I love St. Louis and I love WUSTL (at least, as much as one can love a horrible experience like law school), but I have been having some real doubts lately. Applicant beware, I guess.