Phoenix School of Law vs U of A vs ASU Forum

[ScrabbleChamp]

Out of curiosity, and no, I'm not considering going to Phoenix, anyone have an explanation for why Phoenix has a markedly higher bar passage rate than either of the other schools? I have no doubt that U of A and ASU provide much better educations, but, the stark difference in bar passage rates is a bit perplexing.

[Veyron]

Out of curiosity, and no, I'm not considering going to Phoenix, anyone have an explanation for why Phoenix has a markedly higher bar passage rate than either of the other schools? I have no doubt that U of A and ASU provide much better educations, but, the stark difference in bar passage rates is a bit perplexing.

Because the curriculum at PSOL includes bar-prep. Go to ASU.

[BeautifulSW]

Pure speculation here but the one thing PSL offers that no other school in AZ offers is a part-time evening program. Could it be that the school is tapping a group of older, highly motivated students who couldn't manage to get a law degree while holding down their other responsibilities? Evening division students don't universally do better on the bar exam, as far as I know, but PSL is the only game in town and that might make a difference.

[nealric]

The difference is almost certainly because bar prep is part of the curriculum.

I've talked to people at T4's who have gotten a full year's credit for an MBE drills class. Many have remedial programs, where they require special extra bar prep if your GPA is in the bottom 1/3 or so. Some T4's include Barbri as part of tuition. At higher-ranked schools, most students don't give a second thought to the bar exam until a week or two post graduation.

[Veyron]

Pure speculation here but the one thing PSL offers that no other school in AZ offers is a part-time evening program. Could it be that the school is tapping a group of older, highly motivated students who couldn't manage to get a law degree while holding down their other responsibilities? Evening division students don't universally do better on the bar exam, as far as I know, but PSL is the only game in town and that might make a difference.

I give OP the answer and you come in with worthless and untrue speculation. How like a TTTer. Try reading the post above you next time.

[studebaker07]

Because the curriculum at PSOL includes bar-prep. Go to ASU.

+1. Former PSL student here; PROUD ASU transfer.

From my few months experience, the academic opportunities at ASU are FAR better. As a 2L at PSL, you are STILL taking many required classes which, not-coincidentally I suppose, are subjects covered on the bar exam.

[blurbz]

ASU is generally a good school, but read this story, published today in Above the Law. It would give me pause about attending there...

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/10/arizona- ... -students/

[Veyron]

ASU is generally a good school, but read this story, published today in Above the Law. It would give me pause about attending there...

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/10/arizona- ... -students/

You really shouldn't have been attending ASU Law on less than a major scholarship to begin with unless you already had mad dollaz in the bank. Besides PSOL costs even MOAR.

[Romeosgal]

Phoenix School of Law has a higher bar pass rate because of the great bar prep program that the other two schools don't offer. The school may enroll students with slightly lower gpa's or lsat scores, but it turns out students who score higher on the bar exam and places them at a higher rate in great law firms, government offices and corporate legal departments. This school is not a fly-by-night trade school - the faculty includes several judges as well as very experienced attorneys in a wide variety of fields. I know that I couldn't have gotten the close one-one-one mentorship, academic support, bar prep, classroom interaction, job placement help, etc. if I had gone to ASU or UofA. It was well worth the investment. (By the way, PSL's tuition is the same or less than ASU or UofA's out of state tuition. It made the list of PreLaw Magazine's Law School Best Values.)

[Veyron]

Phoenix School of Law has a higher bar pass rate because of the great bar prep program that the other two schools don't offer. The school may enroll students with slightly lower gpa's or lsat scores, but it turns out students who score higher on the bar exam and places them at a higher rate in great law firms, government offices and corporate legal departments. This school is not a fly-by-night trade school - the faculty includes several judges as well as very experienced attorneys in a wide variety of fields. I know that I couldn't have gotten the close one-one-one mentorship, academic support, bar prep, classroom interaction, job placement help, etc. if I had gone to ASU or UofA. It was well worth the investment. (By the way, PSL's tuition is the same or less than ASU or UofA's out of state tuition. It made the list of PreLaw Magazine's Law School Best Values.)

Everything in this post is a lie, except for the part about the faculty.

[Romeosgal]

It is NOT a lie. I don't know who you are, but you evidently don't know anything about the school.

[Veyron]

It is NOT a lie. I don't know who you are, but you evidently don't know anything about the school.

"Place at a higher rate in great law firms" Link to the attorney bio of one PSOL alum at a great law firm?

[kwais]

don't worry about veyron, he is easily the douchiest, least-informed person on TLS

[Veyron]

don't worry about veyron, he is easily the douchiest, least-informed person on TLS

Douchiest, yes. However, I assure you that I am very well informed about PSOL.

[Grizz]

Phoenix School of Law has a higher bar pass rate because of the great bar prep program that the other two schools don't offer. The school may enroll students with slightly lower gpa's or lsat scores, but it turns out students who score higher on the bar exam and places them at a higher rate in great law firms, government offices and corporate legal departments. This school is not a fly-by-night trade school - the faculty includes several judges as well as very experienced attorneys in a wide variety of fields. I know that I couldn't have gotten the close one-one-one mentorship, academic support, bar prep, classroom interaction, job placement help, etc. if I had gone to ASU or UofA. It was well worth the investment. (By the way, PSL's tuition is the same or less than ASU or UofA's out of state tuition. It made the list of PreLaw Magazine's Law School Best Values.)

That list is garbage. GA State? lol wut?

[kwais]

don't worry about veyron, he is easily the douchiest, least-informed person on TLS

Douchiest, yes. However, I assure you that I am very well informed about PSOL.

The problem is, you think douchey means "smart, blunt, ruthless and successful". It doesn't. It just means bad person.

[Grizz]

don't worry about veyron, he is easily the douchiest, least-informed person on TLS

Douchiest, yes. However, I assure you that I am very well informed about PSOL.

The problem is, you think douchey means "smart, blunt, ruthless and successful". It doesn't. It just means bad person.

No, he really does mean douche. Seriously.

[Veyron]

don't worry about veyron, he is easily the douchiest, least-informed person on TLS

Douchiest, yes. However, I assure you that I am very well informed about PSOL.

The problem is, you think douchey means "smart, blunt, ruthless and successful". It doesn't. It just means bad person.

No, he really does mean douche. Seriously.

TITCR. Also, I mean rad. My Beirut and I are the raddest dogs around.

[BMWonFire]

To Veyron,

Arizona has a peculiar way of issuing Bar passage results, in that they rank each individual. Those that rank highest or pass the AZ Bar in the top 5 slots, coupled with a high GPA are well equipped to be offered firm jobs.

As it appears you're completely misinformed about how to earn a living in the practice of law, I'll educate you about the career. If you want to earn a moderate salary, complete with 12 to 15 hour days for the entirety of your career, then work for a firm. On the west coast you'll be lucky to clear $150k for your first 5-years, especially in this economy.

In New York, if you attend a marquee school, you'll be lucky to earn $250k. Though, $250k in New York will not get you very far when property taxes are nearly 10% per year in some area, and HOA dues (if you desire to purchase a condo) are over $1,000.00 per month (but maybe mommy and daddy will pay for them). Let's hope they do, because you can forget about ever buying a condo in New York on $250k per year. if you're making senior associate / partner salaries of $500k, you'll be a bit happier, but after taxes, you'll still be stuck in the slums or the up and coming Harlem! Wooo Hooo!!!

So Veyron, we then turn to the feds or the state, where if one is lucky they can land a job after several years of resume building and earn $80k to $90k, have a life, a family, and enjoy the practice, as they eventually earn up to $140k+, and that's in this economy. True Obama froze pay raises for two years, but that will pass.

There are other careers such as the FBI, in which one can earn $120 to $140k with a law degree. One can join the Armed Forces as a JAG, open a solo practice, work as a technical writer for a large company such as Intel or Dell (all first year stuff, all possible with a degree from PSL) and a successful Bar passage.

There's also a massive desire for lawyers who want to work for international corporations. Go ahead and "google" DAI, which is just one of dozens of companies that contract with the US Govt. to provide USAID to developing nations: one can work there straight out of law school, and within 3 to 4 years, can be earning close to $200k, be well endowed to work at a firm if they so desire, complete with international experience that few attorneys in the world have (less than 2,500, if that).

I've not even mentioned jobs within Silicon Valley, which can be had with a simple recommendation from a friend. Veyron, tell me, who are your "insider" friends. Have you any? If not, you'll be lucky, and I mean damned lucky to find a job in a firm no matter where you go to school. The US legal market is shrinking and the ABA has all but said that in the near future they will allow the outsourcing of certain legal matters to countries such as India, etc. Have you any idea what that will do to the already overcrowded legal market? I'm sure you know that though, right? I mean, you do read state legal journals, well don't you?

In this economy, if you think attending a top tier school is going to get you an automatic firm job A) you're kidding yourself B) you should seriously figure out how you're going to repay your law school loans, when upon graduation no job offers are forthcoming C) nearly all firm jobs are offered to those who have an "in" (a friend) D) I'll repeat, you've posted quite a bit on this forum, but 90% of your comments are so far off base as to be laughable, though entertaining.

So, keep it up smart kid. Oh, and let me know when that big whopping $150k job offer comes rolling down the line. Guess what, I made $120k selling a single home, a single freaking home, as a real estate agent prior to law school last year, and that took me all of 3-weeks time. Have you the contacts to make it into a firm? If so, put your money where your mouth is, and tell me what firm has offered you a summer associate position? What firm has offered you a job?

You know absolutely nothing about PSL, ASU, or the UofA. In fact, the UofA just a few years ago was so lousy that no one would hire anyone from that school. ASU is rated far below UofA, and you're recommending people attend ASU on what basis? Have you been to Tempe on Mill Avenue? Have you been to Tucson on Speedway? Do you know what types of towns these are? Have you seen PSL on Central Avenue in the heart of Phoenix's multi-billion reconstruction zone? I'm going to go out on a very thick limb and answer for you: NO. You're a kid, under 20, who did well in college, and is scored highly on the LSAT (round of applause), who is sitting behind a computer insulting others who have actual real world experience. Guess what kid, you're one of 30,000 like "educational soldiers." Another woooooh hooooo for you!

Get a clue, better yet, as I asked for above, give me your superior credentials, so I can bow down in awe at your prospect of being a 1st year associate at a top-100 firm. Wow! Ohhh, ahhhh...!!! You're going to love the work, the way you're treated, and the impossible deadlines you'll have to meet, when no one gives a S*t if you have a broken arm or a sick loved one, or a dying mother, and when you have to use the FMLA to skip work, only to come back to a partner who threatens to fire you, during your midyear reviews, which will persist for the remainder of your career. You're going to be another "no-one" lost in the crowd, at best.

Though, if you don't improve your attitude, you'll never be hired by any firm. Example: Friend graduates from Harvard law school with a high GPA in San Francisco- he's out of work for 2-years with a family to support (great firm record- no one cares). Are you attending Harvard? Friend No. 2: Attended UC Berkeley, also out of work for 2 years, after working for a firm for 4-years (laid off due to restructuring). No one gives a damn that he went to one of the best law schools on earth. He has a family- move back into home with parents, along with his wife.
Guess who the law firms kept- those that went far lesser schools such as Cal Western, Pitt, USD, even Golden Gate! Golden Gate- that's right, so open your eyes, kiddo. No one cares about your high flying, $150k education, save for your ego.

I guess I don't need to tell you that. You think you know all, but apparently you have no clue about the above. Enjoy you $150k to $175k income, which is around $90k after taxes...LOL! Actually, you won't be able to, you'll be working 6 to 7 days per week, and unable to see your family, if you're lucky enough to find someone who wants to marry you "because you're an attorney." That will give you a small tax break. But you'll barely be able to buy a home, in the parts of the country where those incomes are paid by firms, and with a 35% federal tax, and an 8 to 9% state tax, you'll be lucky to make $90k. I guess I should adjust my figures, I forgot about social security and medicare, LOL!!!! Enjoy your $80k and if you're contributing to your 401k, you better be living on the cheap. $80k will get you a small 1-bdrm in any major California city, max. It'll also get you a nice 3-series lease, a few suits, and within a few years you'll be disgusted at the thought of walking into your office in the morning. Remember this thread Veyron- this is your life. Print it out. I guarantee this is how it will turn out for you. You'll love it. You have no plan, no clue of the legal profession, yet you act as if you're a seasoned attorney. It's hilarious!

You will not be different than the rest. You'll be just a pawn, a kid, taking orders from someone who's practiced longer than you've been alive, and who won't allow you to do much of anything for a good 8 to 9 years, unsupervised, depending on the firm you work form. Enjoy buddy, enjoy, and get me those credentials of yours. Please get me the firm that's just dying to hire you! Please! I'd love to know!

P.S. Now that I see from your profile that you're attending Penn, which is a "good" school, but not HARVARD as your smugness would imply, I can tell you this, having vast familiarity with PA's legal market, as well as the east coast legal market. Read my words very carefully Veyron. IF YOU DO NOT GRADUATE IN THE TOP 10% OF YOUR CLASS, YOU WILL NOT BE HIRED BY ANY NOTEWORTHY FIRM, PERIOD. You are not attending a marquee school, no matter what you have been led to believe, and if I were you I'd tone down my attitude. Accepted at Penn School of Law, and you have the nerve to put down your peers? That's rather shameful. You'll figure it out sooner or later Veyron. Your Penn credentials will get you far- very far LOL!

[arvcondor]

TITCR. Also, I mean rad. My Beirut and I are the raddest dogs around.

Veyron, your posts have allowed me to really scrutinize the Penn insignia and find what appears to be a weird dead fish. Six years in Philly and I never noticed that.

[RockyIII]

To Veyron,

A lot of shit

BNWonFire,

Please please please please tell that you are just a troll trying to have his jollies. If you believe ANYTHING you just said in your 300-page thesis paper, PLEASE check in to a mental institution, ASAP, you are delusional

[Capitol A]

To Veyron,

A lot of shit

BNWonFire,

Please please please please tell that you are just a troll trying to have his jollies. If you believe ANYTHING you just said in your 300-page thesis paper, PLEASE check in to a mental institution, ASAP, you are delusional

Easily the funniest thing I have ever read on TLS. Check that...funniest thing I have ever read.

[powerlawyer06]

Veyron is actually one of my favorite posters on TLS. I know he can defend himself and I know he will respond but this post has too many inaccuracies for me to let Veyron have all the fun.

In New York, if you attend a marquee school, you'll be lucky to earn $250k. Though, $250k in New York will not get you very far when property taxes are nearly 10% per year in some area, and HOA dues (if you desire to purchase a condo) are over $1,000.00 per month (but maybe mommy and daddy will pay for them).

If Veyron doesn’t take this 250k job I will. No firm pays that to any associate to start. I know they don’t teach you guys how to read or research things at PSL but please go this site if you want to know starting salaries at law firms. http://www.nalpdirectory.com/

So, keep it up smart kid. Oh, and let me know when that big whopping $150k job offer comes rolling down the line. Guess what, I made $120k selling a single home, a single freaking home, as a real estate agent prior to law school last year, and that took me all of 3-weeks time. Have you the contacts to make it into a firm? If so, put your money where your mouth is, and tell me what firm has offered you a summer associate position? What firm has offered you a job?

How many out of work realtors are there in Phoenix? It is like I can’t even go to Starbucks without at least meeting two of them, plus the Barista that makes my drink probably used to be a realtor as well. It is really sad that all realtors do is brag about the one commission check they got in 2006 and how “big time” they were. If you were a legit realtor you would still be doing it now. It was a housing bubble! Every idiot who could print business cards made money.

You know absolutely nothing about PSL, ASU, or the UofA. In fact, the UofA just a few years ago was so lousy that no one would hire anyone from that school.

Definitely false.

ASU is rated far below UofA, and you're recommending people attend ASU on what basis?

U.S. News and World Report ranks them higher but I know you probably don’t read that at PSL. I am sure it is a sore subject for you guys.

Have you been to Tempe on Mill Avenue? Have you been to Tucson on Speedway? Do you know what types of towns these are? Have you seen PSL on Central Avenue in the heart of Phoenix's multi-billion reconstruction zone?

Does reconstruction zone mean “ghetto”? PSL is located conveniently across the street from a large park filled with bums and near a lightrail also filled with bums.

The fact that you are trying to anecdotally suggest that Harvard and Boalt graduates are worse off then students from PSL or Golden Gate makes me laugh so hard I almost peed my pants.

You sound crazy and mad in this post. You should redirect your anger at whatever admissions officer told you that going to PSL was a good investment.

[bhan87]

P.S. Now that I see from your profile that you're attending Penn, which is a "good" school, but not HARVARD as your smugness would imply, I can tell you this, having vast familiarity with PA's legal market, as well as the east coast legal market. Read my words very carefully Veyron. IF YOU DO NOT GRADUATE IN THE TOP 10% OF YOUR CLASS, YOU WILL NOT BE HIRED BY ANY NOTEWORTHY FIRM, PERIOD. You are not attending a marquee school, no matter what you have been led to believe, and if I were you I'd tone down my attitude. Accepted at Penn School of Law, and you have the nerve to put down your peers? That's rather shameful. You'll figure it out sooner or later Veyron. Your Penn credentials will get you far- very far LOL!

Sorry, but Veyron is not your peer. Peers imply a level of equality, and I don't see him making any ill remarks towards those that go to Michigan or Virginia. And even if he does strike out from biglaw and doesn't graduate in the top 10%, he will STILL outperform Phoenix law's #1 graduate.

[Veyron]

To Veyron,

Arizona has a peculiar way of issuing Bar passage results, in that they rank each individual. Those that rank highest or pass the AZ Bar in the top 5 slots, coupled with a high GPA are well equipped to be offered firm jobs.

As it appears you're completely misinformed about how to earn a living in the practice of law, I'll educate you about the career. If you want to earn a moderate salary, complete with 12 to 15 hour days for the entirety of your career, then work for a firm. On the west coast you'll be lucky to clear $150k for your first 5-years, especially in this economy.

In New York, if you attend a marquee school, you'll be lucky to earn $250k. Though, $250k in New York will not get you very far when property taxes are nearly 10% per year in some area, and HOA dues (if you desire to purchase a condo) are over $1,000.00 per month (but maybe mommy and daddy will pay for them). Let's hope they do, because you can forget about ever buying a condo in New York on $250k per year. if you're making senior associate / partner salaries of $500k, you'll be a bit happier, but after taxes, you'll still be stuck in the slums or the up and coming Harlem! Wooo Hooo!!!

So Veyron, we then turn to the feds or the state, where if one is lucky they can land a job after several years of resume building and earn $80k to $90k, have a life, a family, and enjoy the practice, as they eventually earn up to $140k+, and that's in this economy. True Obama froze pay raises for two years, but that will pass.

There are other careers such as the FBI, in which one can earn $120 to $140k with a law degree. One can join the Armed Forces as a JAG, open a solo practice, work as a technical writer for a large company such as Intel or Dell (all first year stuff, all possible with a degree from PSL) and a successful Bar passage.

There's also a massive desire for lawyers who want to work for international corporations. Go ahead and "google" DAI, which is just one of dozens of companies that contract with the US Govt. to provide USAID to developing nations: one can work there straight out of law school, and within 3 to 4 years, can be earning close to $200k, be well endowed to work at a firm if they so desire, complete with international experience that few attorneys in the world have (less than 2,500, if that).

I've not even mentioned jobs within Silicon Valley, which can be had with a simple recommendation from a friend. Veyron, tell me, who are your "insider" friends. Have you any? If not, you'll be lucky, and I mean damned lucky to find a job in a firm no matter where you go to school. The US legal market is shrinking and the ABA has all but said that in the near future they will allow the outsourcing of certain legal matters to countries such as India, etc. Have you any idea what that will do to the already overcrowded legal market? I'm sure you know that though, right? I mean, you do read state legal journals, well don't you?

In this economy, if you think attending a top tier school is going to get you an automatic firm job A) you're kidding yourself B) you should seriously figure out how you're going to repay your law school loans, when upon graduation no job offers are forthcoming C) nearly all firm jobs are offered to those who have an "in" (a friend) D) I'll repeat, you've posted quite a bit on this forum, but 90% of your comments are so far off base as to be laughable, though entertaining.

So, keep it up smart kid. Oh, and let me know when that big whopping $150k job offer comes rolling down the line. Guess what, I made $120k selling a single home, a single freaking home, as a real estate agent prior to law school last year, and that took me all of 3-weeks time. Have you the contacts to make it into a firm? If so, put your money where your mouth is, and tell me what firm has offered you a summer associate position? What firm has offered you a job?

You know absolutely nothing about PSL, ASU, or the UofA. In fact, the UofA just a few years ago was so lousy that no one would hire anyone from that school. ASU is rated far below UofA, and you're recommending people attend ASU on what basis? Have you been to Tempe on Mill Avenue? Have you been to Tucson on Speedway? Do you know what types of towns these are? Have you seen PSL on Central Avenue in the heart of Phoenix's multi-billion reconstruction zone? I'm going to go out on a very thick limb and answer for you: NO. You're a kid, under 20, who did well in college, and is scored highly on the LSAT (round of applause), who is sitting behind a computer insulting others who have actual real world experience. Guess what kid, you're one of 30,000 like "educational soldiers." Another woooooh hooooo for you!

Get a clue, better yet, as I asked for above, give me your superior credentials, so I can bow down in awe at your prospect of being a 1st year associate at a top-100 firm. Wow! Ohhh, ahhhh...!!! You're going to love the work, the way you're treated, and the impossible deadlines you'll have to meet, when no one gives a S*t if you have a broken arm or a sick loved one, or a dying mother, and when you have to use the FMLA to skip work, only to come back to a partner who threatens to fire you, during your midyear reviews, which will persist for the remainder of your career. You're going to be another "no-one" lost in the crowd, at best.

Though, if you don't improve your attitude, you'll never be hired by any firm. Example: Friend graduates from Harvard law school with a high GPA in San Francisco- he's out of work for 2-years with a family to support (great firm record- no one cares). Are you attending Harvard? Friend No. 2: Attended UC Berkeley, also out of work for 2 years, after working for a firm for 4-years (laid off due to restructuring). No one gives a damn that he went to one of the best law schools on earth. He has a family- move back into home with parents, along with his wife.
Guess who the law firms kept- those that went far lesser schools such as Cal Western, Pitt, USD, even Golden Gate! Golden Gate- that's right, so open your eyes, kiddo. No one cares about your high flying, $150k education, save for your ego.

I guess I don't need to tell you that. You think you know all, but apparently you have no clue about the above. Enjoy you $150k to $175k income, which is around $90k after taxes...LOL! Actually, you won't be able to, you'll be working 6 to 7 days per week, and unable to see your family, if you're lucky enough to find someone who wants to marry you "because you're an attorney." That will give you a small tax break. But you'll barely be able to buy a home, in the parts of the country where those incomes are paid by firms, and with a 35% federal tax, and an 8 to 9% state tax, you'll be lucky to make $90k. I guess I should adjust my figures, I forgot about social security and medicare, LOL!!!! Enjoy your $80k and if you're contributing to your 401k, you better be living on the cheap. $80k will get you a small 1-bdrm in any major California city, max. It'll also get you a nice 3-series lease, a few suits, and within a few years you'll be disgusted at the thought of walking into your office in the morning. Remember this thread Veyron- this is your life. Print it out. I guarantee this is how it will turn out for you. You'll love it. You have no plan, no clue of the legal profession, yet you act as if you're a seasoned attorney. It's hilarious!

You will not be different than the rest. You'll be just a pawn, a kid, taking orders from someone who's practiced longer than you've been alive, and who won't allow you to do much of anything for a good 8 to 9 years, unsupervised, depending on the firm you work form. Enjoy buddy, enjoy, and get me those credentials of yours. Please get me the firm that's just dying to hire you! Please! I'd love to know!

P.S. Now that I see from your profile that you're attending Penn, which is a "good" school, but not HARVARD as your smugness would imply, I can tell you this, having vast familiarity with PA's legal market, as well as the east coast legal market. Read my words very carefully Veyron. IF YOU DO NOT GRADUATE IN THE TOP 10% OF YOUR CLASS, YOU WILL NOT BE HIRED BY ANY NOTEWORTHY FIRM, PERIOD. You are not attending a marquee school, no matter what you have been led to believe, and if I were you I'd tone down my attitude. Accepted at Penn School of Law, and you have the nerve to put down your peers? That's rather shameful. You'll figure it out sooner or later Veyron. Your Penn credentials will get you far- very far LOL!

You mad bro?