Top Law Schools

Wondering if paying sticker price is worth it?

depends entirely on your ability to get a job from michigan. if you have connections, WE or the ability to get good grades, of course it is. a person with a half ride is still fucked if they have no job, and a person paying sticker is fine if they get one.

IAFG wrote:depends entirely on your ability to get a job from michigan. if you have connections, WE or the ability to get good grades, of course it is. a person with a half ride is still [edit: screwed] if they have no job, and a person paying sticker is fine if they get one.

+1

I suspect there are an awful lot of people (including a couple I know personally) who would love to be given the opportunity to pay sticker at Michigan.

Firms are willing to hire people with median (and below) grades from T7-14, but all the people I know who got biglaw offers from that position had: interesting WE (finance, engineering, accounting, lobbying), stellar undergraduate credential (HYP), or were unbelievably terrific (top 10%) interviewers.

So if you're a typical Michigan student (no WE, liberal arts major, etc) and you're gunning for biglaw, then no, not worth it.

rayiner wrote:Firms are willing to hire people with median (and below) grades from T7-14, but all the people I know who got biglaw offers from that position had: interesting WE (finance, engineering, accounting, lobbying), stellar undergraduate credential (HYP), or were unbelievably terrific (top 1%) interviewers.

So if you're a typical Michigan student (no WE, liberal arts major, etc) and you're gunning for biglaw, then no, not worth it.

but what difference does some scholly make? it takes a lot to move the needle off of "oppressive crushing debt"

IAFG wrote:

rayiner wrote:Firms are willing to hire people with median (and below) grades from T7-14, but all the people I know who got biglaw offers from that position had: interesting WE (finance, engineering, accounting, lobbying), stellar undergraduate credential (HYP), or were unbelievably terrific (top 1%) interviewers.

So if you're a typical Michigan student (no WE, liberal arts major, etc) and you're gunning for biglaw, then no, not worth it.

but what difference does some scholly make? it takes a lot to move the needle off of "oppressive crushing debt"

Right. What is really the big difference between $150k and $200k if you strike out?

so you're saying don't go to 7-14 without a full ride? i am surprised.

rayiner wrote:Firms are willing to hire people with median (and below) grades from T7-14, but all the people I know who got biglaw offers from that position had: interesting WE (finance, engineering, accounting, lobbying), stellar undergraduate credential (HYP), or were unbelievably terrific (top 10%) interviewers.

So if you're a typical Michigan student (no WE, liberal arts major, etc) and you're gunning for biglaw, then no, not worth it.

This is an interesting assessment; thanks for your insight. Are you suggesting that top 10%, interesting WE, or stellar UG credentials are necessary to attain a big law position from Michigan? Or are you suggesting that the chances of attaining big law without any of these factors presents too much risk relative to the amount of debt incurred at sticker?

rayiner wrote:

IAFG wrote:

rayiner wrote:Firms are willing to hire people with median (and below) grades from T7-14, but all the people I know who got biglaw offers from that position had: interesting WE (finance, engineering, accounting, lobbying), stellar undergraduate credential (HYP), or were unbelievably terrific (top 1%) interviewers.

So if you're a typical Michigan student (no WE, liberal arts major, etc) and you're gunning for biglaw, then no, not worth it.

but what difference does some scholly make? it takes a lot to move the needle off of "oppressive crushing debt"

Right. What is really the big difference between $150k and $200k if you strike out?

For starters, LRAP programs like ours are designed to make schools like these a reality for those who don't want to go into biglaw. Even in 2005-2007, people were paying sticker under the assumption they were coming for public interest work and would be utilizing the LRAP program. The loss in biglaw jobs hasn't changed that significantly. The most prestigious PI jobs are tougher to get, but the LRAP on any legal job (apart from a clerkship) from Michigan will still help mitigate the debt, just as it did five years ago.

Second, we have to recognize that these are people who are two years removed from our hiring situation (meaning four years removed from right now when it comes to full time employment). Class of 2011 got f*cked (somewhere around 40% was the figure floating around here?), Class of 2012 is taking it pretty hard (but I'm hoping around 50-55% will land biglaw this year, based purely on the projected class-size figures of most firms), 2013 might be marginally better yet, and 2014 should hopefully be noticeably better, even assuming a somewhat-sustained recession. Now, that's not to say that the hiring model will return to anything close to resembling Class of 2007's outlook, but I think it will be a noticeable improvement.

Third, the question is nearly impossible to answer without considering the alternatives. If OP has a GPA/LSAT combo to be looking at T20s with sizable money (maybe 1/3-full scholarship), then it will come down to how risk averse OP is. Of course, risk averse goes both ways - financially in terms of debt, and financially in terms of opportunities to gain full time employment upon graduation.

The answer is obviously going to come down to OP's confidence in his/her situation and comfort with relying on an LRAP program if things don't go as planned. There will be people at Michigan who have 1/2 scholarships who think it isn't worth it, and people at Michigan paying sticker who wouldn't have changed a thing about their decision. Whether the people in the first group think it wasn't worth it because of Michigan in particular, or because of the legal field in general, is another issue to consider.

Yes. A top 10 school is worth sticker.

/thread

buckilaw wrote:

rayiner wrote:Firms are willing to hire people with median (and below) grades from T7-14, but all the people I know who got biglaw offers from that position had: interesting WE (finance, engineering, accounting, lobbying), stellar undergraduate credential (HYP), or were unbelievably terrific (top 10%) interviewers.

So if you're a typical Michigan student (no WE, liberal arts major, etc) and you're gunning for biglaw, then no, not worth it.

This is an interesting assessment; thanks for your insight. Are you suggesting that top 10%, interesting WE, or stellar UG credentials are necessary to attain a big law position from Michigan? Or are you suggesting that the chances of attaining big law without any of these factors presents too much risk relative to the amount of debt incurred at sticker?

Top 10% certainly isn't required for biglaw out of Michigan. But the most recent stats we have are 40-50% getting biglaw out of OCI. That does not mean that anyone above median has a great shot. Firms are hiring some people below median, which obviously means that they are not hiring some people above median.

I think in practice it tends to work out in thirds. Top 1/3 can get a job based on grades and a great interview. Middle third can get a job, but they'll need to bring another factor to the table: WE, steller UG credentials, connections, etc. If you can't bring something like that to the table, you're in a tough position. Firms are only going to hire about half the people with grades in that middle area, and they're by and large going to hire the ones that have something besides grades going for them.

I could be wrong about this, but I don't think applying ED to Michigan robs you of scholarship opportunities. From what I understand, the scholarship is incredibly formulaic and so if you LSN ppl with your #s, you'll know what you are likely to get.

Depends on your gambling skills. If you gamble you can hit top 1/3 or higher in class rank (Michigan is getting short shrift by no biglaw base and other schools locking down local markets), then yes, pay sticker, you will almost certainly get a biglaw job (unless you are a horrifc interviewee). Otherwise, probably not. If you are at median and average, your ass is grass.

MrKappus wrote:Yes. A top 10 school is worth sticker.

/thread

/thread

Depends. Is your alternative a 40 oz + the gutter or could you land some decent job with advancement potential. Are you extremely motivated with relevant WE or are you just putzing along with no direction. Are you a trust fund kid paying cash and going for kicks or taking on full debt. Do you feel lucky punk.

rayiner wrote:Firms are hiring some people below median, which obviously means that they are not hiring some people above median.

Are you suggesting that firms have a quota for Michigan hires that is approximately 50% of the class?

bdubs wrote:

rayiner wrote:Firms are hiring some people below median, which obviously means that they are not hiring some people above median.

Are you suggesting that firms have a quota for Michigan hires that is approximately 50% of the class?

No. The preliminary data that we have suggests 40-50% of students got jobs through OCI. Since I know people below median got jobs, that implies that people above median didn't get jobs.

Agree that it is relative to your alternative options. For example, sticker at Michigan versus a full tuition scholarship at UCLA presents a difficult case if you do not want to work in California or an easy decision if you do.

rayiner wrote:

bdubs wrote:

rayiner wrote:Firms are hiring some people below median, which obviously means that they are not hiring some people above median.

Are you suggesting that firms have a quota for Michigan hires that is approximately 50% of the class?

No. The preliminary data that we have suggests 40-50% of students got jobs through OCI. Since I know people below median got jobs, that implies that people above median didn't get jobs.

How did you come up with those statistics? I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but I'm just wondering how people fabricate statistics that have not yet been compiled by career services. I keep reading "MVP placed 50% into biglaw" on TLS, and I have no idea how people even come up stats when people aren't even finished with callbacks and/or are still waiting on firms post-callbacks.

I haven't spoken with too many people IRL about OCI, because we have no idea how others are doing and it may seem rude, but I'm somewhere between top 1/3 and top 40%, and out of 11 screenings from OCI, I got 5 v50 callbacks. Multiple offers. No WE, straight from ugrad, not IP, and not URM. Based on a couple of my friends' anecdotes, it seems like if you were in the top half you should have gotten at least some callbacks, at least in certain markets like New York and Southern markets. My friend who has similar grades as me, and no WE, landed 3 DC callbacks and an offer, and he's not on any journals. I do think it starts getting rough sub-median, but it's probably a bad position to be in at any non-HYS school.

aheisman wrote:

rayiner wrote:

bdubs wrote:

rayiner wrote:Firms are hiring some people below median, which obviously means that they are not hiring some people above median.

Are you suggesting that firms have a quota for Michigan hires that is approximately 50% of the class?

No. The preliminary data that we have suggests 40-50% of students got jobs through OCI. Since I know people below median got jobs, that implies that people above median didn't get jobs.

How did you come up with those statistics? I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but I'm just wondering how people fabricate statistics that have not yet been compiled by career services. I keep reading "MVP placed 50% into biglaw" on TLS, and I have no idea how people even come up stats when people aren't even finished with callbacks and/or are still waiting on firms post-callbacks.

I haven't spoken with too many people IRL about OCI, because we have no idea how others are doing and it may seem rude, but I'm somewhere between top 1/3 and top 40%, and out of 11 screenings from OCI, I got 5 v50 callbacks. Multiple offers. No WE, straight from ugrad, not IP, and not URM. Based on a couple of my friends' anecdotes, it seems like if you were in the top half you should have gotten at least some callbacks, at least in certain markets like New York and Southern markets. My friend who has similar grades as me, and no WE, landed 3 DC callbacks and an offer, and he's not on any journals. I do think it starts getting rough sub-median, but it's probably a bad position to be in at any non-HYS school.

I'm also curious as to how TLS draws inferences about OCI placement for a given school.

aheisman wrote:How did you come up with those statistics? I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but I'm just wondering how people fabricate statistics that have not yet been compiled by career services. I keep reading "MVP placed 50% into biglaw" on TLS, and I have no idea how people even come up stats when people aren't even finished with callbacks and/or are still waiting on firms post-callbacks.

I haven't spoken with too many people IRL about OCI, because we have no idea how others are doing and it may seem rude, but I'm somewhere between top 1/3 and top 40%, and out of 11 screenings from OCI, I got 5 v50 callbacks. Multiple offers. No WE, straight from ugrad, not IP, and not URM. Based on a couple of my friends' anecdotes, it seems like if you were in the top half you should have gotten at least some callbacks, at least in certain markets like New York and Southern markets. My friend who has similar grades as me, and no WE, landed 3 DC callbacks and an offer, and he's not on any journals. I do think it starts getting rough sub-median, but it's probably a bad position to be in at any non-HYS school.

THANK YOU! People are saying "MVPB are placing 40 percent into firms" "CCN are placing 70 percent into firms" etc. like it's fact. Where are people getting this from???? OCI just ended and no schools have collected the data (nor can they this early). It's like the recession has bred this fearful attitude where people are trying their best to guess placement (based off of U.S News rank) and are stating these guesses like their fact.

aheisman wrote:

rayiner wrote:

bdubs wrote:

rayiner wrote:Firms are hiring some people below median, which obviously means that they are not hiring some people above median.

Are you suggesting that firms have a quota for Michigan hires that is approximately 50% of the class?

No. The preliminary data that we have suggests 40-50% of students got jobs through OCI. Since I know people below median got jobs, that implies that people above median didn't get jobs.

How did you come up with those statistics? I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but I'm just wondering how people fabricate statistics that have not yet been compiled by career services. I keep reading "MVP placed 50% into biglaw" on TLS, and I have no idea how people even come up stats when people aren't even finished with callbacks and/or are still waiting on firms post-callbacks.

I haven't spoken with too many people IRL about OCI, because we have no idea how others are doing and it may seem rude, but I'm somewhere between top 1/3 and top 40%, and out of 11 screenings from OCI, I got 5 v50 callbacks. Multiple offers. No WE, straight from ugrad, not IP, and not URM. Based on a couple of my friends' anecdotes, it seems like if you were in the top half you should have gotten at least some callbacks, at least in certain markets like New York and Southern markets. My friend who has similar grades as me, and no WE, landed 3 DC callbacks and an offer, and he's not on any journals. I do think it starts getting rough sub-median, but it's probably a bad position to be in at any non-HYS school.

We're talking about last year's OCI, not this year's. Consensus seems to be that this year is slightly better, but mostly at the top firms.

Also... your anecdotal information isn't inconsistent with the 40-50% figures being bandied about. People above median might get at least some callbacks, but with a callback -> offer ratio of 50% or below at many firms, that doesn't mean they'll get jobs. A number of top-half people will strike out and a number of bottom half people will luck into something -> 50% isn't a bad guess at all.

We're talking about last year's OCI, not this year's. Consensus seems to be that this year is slightly better, but mostly at the top firms.

Also... your anecdotal information isn't inconsistent with the 40-50% figures being bandied about. People above median might get at least some callbacks, but with a callback -> offer ratio of 50% or below at many firms, that doesn't mean they'll get jobs. A number of top-half people will strike out and a number of bottom half people will luck into something -> 50% isn't a bad guess at all.

I'm wondering if you realize you just honed in on the fact that his comment was anecdote, but then proceeded to end with the bolded.

BruceWayne wrote:

We're talking about last year's OCI, not this year's. Consensus seems to be that this year is slightly better, but mostly at the top firms.

Also... your anecdotal information isn't inconsistent with the 40-50% figures being bandied about. People above median might get at least some callbacks, but with a callback -> offer ratio of 50% or below at many firms, that doesn't mean they'll get jobs. A number of top-half people will strike out and a number of bottom half people will luck into something -> 50% isn't a bad guess at all.

I'm wondering if you realize you just honed in on the fact that his comment was anecdote, but then proceeded to end with the bolded.

if we didn't have informed speculation, we wouldn't have anything at all.

MrKappus wrote:Yes. A top 10 school is worth sticker.

/thread

No matter how much tuition goes up, and no matter how much hiring declines, A TOP TEN SCHOOL IS WORTH STICKER. FOREVER AND EVER, AMEN.