Top Law Schools

how are the schools and their graduates perceived in the East Coast? Is one superior than the other?

Seriously?

Berk arguably places better on the east coast then it does in CA, USC has dismal placement on the east coast.

Terrible question. Dont go to USC if you want east coast

^ However, I'd like to study in California for Law School. Working in the East Coast is just a possibility.

jt1341 wrote:Terrible question. Dont go to USC if you want east coast

Don't go to USC period. It's only a good place if you want to work in SoCal.

atitz wrote:^ However, I'd like to study in California for Law School. Working in the East Coast is just a possibility.

Choose a school based on where you want to work afterwards, possibly for 5-10 years or more, and not where you want to live for 3 years.

Berkeley has a strong rep on the East Coast. I had a lot of luck doing mass mailings before OCI (I wanted to avoid the whole OCI process, if possible) and I know a lot of people who have offers in NY that don't even have ties to the region. Berkeley is a top school, and as such, it has a national reach. I know people with medianish grades who are landing offers all over the country (although most of these people have unique work experience, law review, or just *something* more than college straight through to law school).

Word to the wise: some NY firms come to Berkeley's OCI, some solicit resumes on the career site, and some just don't come at all. Best advice for landing a NYC gig is to mass mail all east coast firms that do not come to OCI waaaaay BEFORE OCIP starts. Preferably, plan a trip in late July or early August and let them know you'll be in town and would be happy to interview. This way you can interview with a lot of extra firms other than the ones coming to campus.

Edit: Sorry for assuming by "east coast" you meant NY. As a native NYC metro area gal, I tend to assume everything in life leads back to NY somehow. =)

IzziesGal wrote:Berkeley has a strong rep on the East Coast. I had a lot of luck doing mass mailings before OCI (I wanted to avoid the whole OCI process, if possible) and I know a lot of people who have offers in NY that don't even have ties to the region. Berkeley is a top school, and as such, it has a national reach. I know people with medianish grades who are landing offers all over the country (although most of these people have unique work experience, law review, or just *something* more than college straight through to law school).

Word to the wise: some NY firms come to Berkeley's OCI, some solicit resumes on the career site, and some just don't come at all. Best advice for landing a NYC gig is to mass mail all east coast firms that do not come to OCI waaaaay BEFORE OCIP starts. Preferably, plan a trip in late July or early August and let them know you'll be in town and would be happy to interview. This way you can interview with a lot of extra firms other than the ones coming to campus.

Hustle is credited ITE.

ITE, it's much easier breaking into biglaw through OCI than through mass mailing. If you want to be on the East Coast, I'd attend a school where East Coast firms go to your OCI in droves. OCIs are definitely a lot more regional now than they were a couple years ago because firms are cutting back on costs and recruiting at fewer schools.

I'm just finishing callbacks on the East Coast - I didn't meet a single Boalt or USC grad. I think Boalt has a good reputation though, but I don't think USC has much of a reputation. (All of my callbacks were with v50s in NY - I was interviewed by a UT grad and Vandy grad, but I didn't meet a single USC/UCLA grad.)

My advice is, if you really want the East Coast, I would play it safe and attend a school that has a lot of East Coast employers at OCI. Odds are mass mailing will not work unless (1) You have a really high GPA or (2) Your resume stands out (due to strong work experience, etc.). Out of my screening interviews during OCI, I had a 40% callback success rate. However, I got zero callbacks through mass mailing large firms in New York even though some of these firms were historically less competitive than firms I got callbacks with from OCI. I suspect this is because (1) my grades were not good enough to warrant a callback through mass mailing since these firms had plenty of applicants to choose from and (2) I went straight from undergrad and did not have substantive work experience.

irishman86 wrote:ITE, it's much easier breaking into biglaw through OCI than through mass mailing. If you want to be on the East Coast, I'd attend a school where East Coast firms go to your OCI in droves. OCIs are definitely a lot more regional now than they were a couple years ago because firms are cutting back on costs and recruiting at fewer schools.

I'm just finishing callbacks on the East Coast - I didn't meet a single Boalt or USC grad. I think Boalt has a good reputation though, but I don't think USC has much of a reputation. (All of my callbacks were with v50s in NY - I was interviewed by a UT grad and Vandy grad, but I didn't meet a single USC/UCLA grad.)

My advice is, if you really want the East Coast, I would play it safe and attend a school that has a lot of East Coast employers at OCI. Odds are mass mailing will not work unless (1) You have a really high GPA or (2) Your resume stands out (due to strong work experience, etc.). Out of my screening interviews during OCI, I had a 40% callback success rate. However, I got zero callbacks through mass mailing large firms in New York even though some of these firms were historically less competitive than firms I got callbacks with from OCI. I suspect this is because (1) my grades were not good enough to warrant a callback through mass mailing since these firms had plenty of applicants to choose from and (2) I went straight from undergrad and did not have substantive work experience.

There are PLENTY of NY firms that came to OCI at Boalt. I'm just saying if you're medianish, apply early over the summer so that you get ALL of the Vault firms, and not just the 50 or so that come to OCI. Why not double your chances??? Medianish at Boalt does get Biglaw. I don't know anyone without callbacks and offers who wanted them.

IzziesGal wrote:

irishman86 wrote:ITE, it's much easier breaking into biglaw through OCI than through mass mailing. If you want to be on the East Coast, I'd attend a school where East Coast firms go to your OCI in droves. OCIs are definitely a lot more regional now than they were a couple years ago because firms are cutting back on costs and recruiting at fewer schools.

I'm just finishing callbacks on the East Coast - I didn't meet a single Boalt or USC grad. I think Boalt has a good reputation though, but I don't think USC has much of a reputation. (All of my callbacks were with v50s in NY - I was interviewed by a UT grad and Vandy grad, but I didn't meet a single USC/UCLA grad.)

My advice is, if you really want the East Coast, I would play it safe and attend a school that has a lot of East Coast employers at OCI. Odds are mass mailing will not work unless (1) You have a really high GPA or (2) Your resume stands out (due to strong work experience, etc.). Out of my screening interviews during OCI, I had a 40% callback success rate. However, I got zero callbacks through mass mailing large firms in New York even though some of these firms were historically less competitive than firms I got callbacks with from OCI. I suspect this is because (1) my grades were not good enough to warrant a callback through mass mailing since these firms had plenty of applicants to choose from and (2) I went straight from undergrad and did not have substantive work experience.

There are PLENTY of NY firms that came to OCI at Boalt. I'm just saying if you're medianish, apply early over the summer so that you get ALL of the Vault firms, and not just the 50 or so that come to OCI. Why not double your chances??? Medianish at Boalt does get Biglaw. I don't know anyone without callbacks and offers who wanted them.

The latter sentence is a pretty strong statement. I am saying it is a lot easier landing biglaw through OCI than through mass mailing, especially if you don't have strong work experience or some unique factor going for you. If OP wanted to work in California, I would recommend Boalt over certain East Coast schools. Vice versa applies here.

I think my results are more typical of the average applicant with no crazy work experience - No callbacks through mass mailing large firms (I have good, but not great grades), but a good percentage of callbacks after screening interviews during OCI.

I also mass mailed mid-sized firms in non-East Coast markets (my school tends to target the East Coast), and I got responses from those. However, the vast majority of my callbacks came from East Coast v50s that attended OCI.

irishman86 wrote:

IzziesGal wrote:

irishman86 wrote:ITE, it's much easier breaking into biglaw through OCI than through mass mailing. If you want to be on the East Coast, I'd attend a school where East Coast firms go to your OCI in droves. OCIs are definitely a lot more regional now than they were a couple years ago because firms are cutting back on costs and recruiting at fewer schools.

I'm just finishing callbacks on the East Coast - I didn't meet a single Boalt or USC grad. I think Boalt has a good reputation though, but I don't think USC has much of a reputation. (All of my callbacks were with v50s in NY - I was interviewed by a UT grad and Vandy grad, but I didn't meet a single USC/UCLA grad.)

My advice is, if you really want the East Coast, I would play it safe and attend a school that has a lot of East Coast employers at OCI. Odds are mass mailing will not work unless (1) You have a really high GPA or (2) Your resume stands out (due to strong work experience, etc.). Out of my screening interviews during OCI, I had a 40% callback success rate. However, I got zero callbacks through mass mailing large firms in New York even though some of these firms were historically less competitive than firms I got callbacks with from OCI. I suspect this is because (1) my grades were not good enough to warrant a callback through mass mailing since these firms had plenty of applicants to choose from and (2) I went straight from undergrad and did not have substantive work experience.

There are PLENTY of NY firms that came to OCI at Boalt. I'm just saying if you're medianish, apply early over the summer so that you get ALL of the Vault firms, and not just the 50 or so that come to OCI. Why not double your chances??? Medianish at Boalt does get Biglaw. I don't know anyone without callbacks and offers who wanted them.

The latter sentence is a pretty strong statement. I am saying it is a lot easier landing biglaw through OCI than through mass mailing, especially if you don't have strong work experience or some unique factor going for you. If OP wanted to work in California, I would recommend Boalt over certain East Coast schools. Vice versa applies here.

I think my results are more typical of the average applicant with no crazy work experience - No callbacks through mass mailing large firms (I have good, but not great grades), but a good percentage of callbacks after screening interviews during OCI.

I also mass mailed mid-sized firms in non-East Coast markets (my school tends to target the East Coast), and I got responses from those. However, the vast majority of my callbacks came from East Coast v50s that attended OCI.

The last sentence is true - I don't know anyone at Berkeley who wanted a firm job that doesnt have at least a callback pending offer, or offer. And a lot of people I know are headed back to the east coast. I think that OCI should never be the only way one searches for a job. OCI + mass mailings work. And mass mailings have to be early to be effective.

IzziesGal wrote: The last sentence is true - I don't know anyone at Berkeley who wanted a firm job that doesnt have at least a callback pending offer, or offer. And a lot of people I know are headed back to the east coast. I think that OCI should never be the only way one searches for a job. OCI + mass mailings work. And mass mailings have to be early to be effective.

I agree that people should be prepared and mass mail. However, I am saying, from my experience as well my friends', it is much, much easier landing callbacks with biglaw firms through OCI than through mass mailings. A lot of firms do not want to waste the time interviewing applicants outside of OCI since they have so many accomplished, already-screened applicants to choose from. I do know of some people getting some callbacks through mass mailings, but they are usually (1) top 10%-20% of the class and/or (2) have unique work experience.

I would just like to point out the above is such a gross misrepresentation of Boalt's OCIP placement ability. Our OCS has suggested the placement rate to be around 40% for Boalt students at OCIP. I think Boalt is a great school, but people should know that Biglaw is less than a 50/50 Proposition thanks to our grading system, and from a placement standpoint we are wildly overrated.

Boalt1L wrote:I would just like to point out the above is such a gross misrepresentation of Boalt's OCIP placement ability. Our OCS has suggested the placement rate to be around 40% for Boalt students at OCIP. I think Boalt is a great school, but people should know that Biglaw is less than a 50/50 Proposition thanks to our grading system, and from a placement standpoint we are wildly overrated.

Have they gotten anything right at all this year? They also told someone I know not to do OCI because they didn't think the person would have any luck, and that person now has 5 offers. They also claim that all public interest hiring is mainly finished by November, which is when it has barely started. If the CDO says that 40% of people got offers, it's probably anything but 40%.

worldtraveler wrote:

Boalt1L wrote:I would just like to point out the above is such a gross misrepresentation of Boalt's OCIP placement ability. Our OCS has suggested the placement rate to be around 40% for Boalt students at OCIP. I think Boalt is a great school, but people should know that Biglaw is less than a 50/50 Proposition thanks to our grading system, and from a placement standpoint we are wildly overrated.

Have they gotten anything right at all this year? They also told someone I know not to do OCI because they didn't think the person would have any luck, and that person now has 5 offers. They also claim that all public interest hiring is mainly finished by November, which is when it has barely started. If the CDO says that 40% of people got offers, it's probably anything but 40%.

Thanks, WT, for backing me up.

Boalt1L - are you a 1L (I assume) or a 2L who is actually going through the process? Because OCIP is not just big law....there are mid sized firms, large firms that aren't on Vault, specialized boutiques that pay market, and gov't/public sector employers who recruit at OCIP as well. So that 40% number doesn't have to be *all* biglaw - which means it's entirely realistic that 40% of people have received jobs out of OCIP.

Edit: I am sorry if I am coming off strong here, I just hate the doom and gloom that the CDO spread around this year. No, it's not 2005 in the law firm hay day (sp?), but we are still lucky enough to be at a top school and we are heavily recruited. 1Ls need to have confidence going into the recruiting season and learn from 2Ls on how best to strategize to get an offer.

.

Ugh - it's my fault for posting something on here that can easily be taken out of context or misunderstood in cyberspace. I'm just trying to make the point that Berkeley does have national reach and there are a lot of people with a good number of callbacks or offers. And the offers are all over the country, not just in the Bay.

wow, thanks guys, especially to IzziesGal for the very informative posts.

I'm not really thrilled about working in the East Coast. I still would want to work in the West Coast, if I were to choose. But I'd like to attend a law school that has at least some recognition in the East Coast for just in case. I'm from Asia and I would be paying full fees. And, if I have to spend that much, I'd rather that my school has some recognition in both Coasts.

I already got into USC last year, but I deferred. I'll be applying to Berkeley, Stanford and UCLA. But if I get into all three I'd go for Berkeley. Been to a Cal campus tour and fell in love with the school right away. I cannot imagine studying somewhere else for law studies. my wife is from NJ, however, and there may be a chance that we would move there or in NY in the future.

atitz wrote:wow, thanks guys, especially to IzziesGal for the very informative posts.

I'm not really thrilled about working in the East Coast. I still would want to work in the West Coast, if I were to choose. But I'd like to attend a law school that has at least some recognition in the East Coast for just in case. I'm from Asia and I would be paying full fees. And, if I have to spend that much, I'd rather that my school has some recognition in both Coasts.

I already got into USC last year, but I deferred. I'll be applying to Berkeley, Stanford and UCLA. But if I get into all three I'd go for Berkeley. Been to a Cal campus tour and fell in love with the school right away. I cannot imagine studying somewhere else for law studies. my wife is from NJ, however, and there may be a chance that we would move there or in NY in the future.

Not trying to be a prestige whore, but if you care at all about working for a firm, and you get into all 3, picking any of them other than Stanford would be borderline insane. I don't think you realize the reputation gap between Stanford and Boalt outside of California. Actually, I don't think a lot of Cali people realize that. My friends from California seem to view Berkeley as only being slightly behind Stanford (I've heard that Cali firms feel this way as well) but for people in the rest of the country there's a big difference.

BruceWayne wrote:

atitz wrote:wow, thanks guys, especially to IzziesGal for the very informative posts.

I'm not really thrilled about working in the East Coast. I still would want to work in the West Coast, if I were to choose. But I'd like to attend a law school that has at least some recognition in the East Coast for just in case. I'm from Asia and I would be paying full fees. And, if I have to spend that much, I'd rather that my school has some recognition in both Coasts.

I already got into USC last year, but I deferred. I'll be applying to Berkeley, Stanford and UCLA. But if I get into all three I'd go for Berkeley. Been to a Cal campus tour and fell in love with the school right away. I cannot imagine studying somewhere else for law studies. my wife is from NJ, however, and there may be a chance that we would move there or in NY in the future.

Not trying to be a prestige whore, but if you care at all about working for a firm, and you get into all 3, picking any of them other than Stanford would be borderline insane. I don't think you realize the reputation gap between Stanford and Boalt outside of California. Actually, I don't think a lot of Cali people realize that. My friends from California seem to view Berkeley as only being slightly behind Stanford (I've heard that Cali firms feel this way as well) but for people in the rest of the country there's a big difference.

IDK brochacho, in NYC, Stanford places like a T-6 and berk places like an MVP.

Veyron wrote:

BruceWayne wrote:

atitz wrote:wow, thanks guys, especially to IzziesGal for the very informative posts.

I'm not really thrilled about working in the East Coast. I still would want to work in the West Coast, if I were to choose. But I'd like to attend a law school that has at least some recognition in the East Coast for just in case. I'm from Asia and I would be paying full fees. And, if I have to spend that much, I'd rather that my school has some recognition in both Coasts.

I already got into USC last year, but I deferred. I'll be applying to Berkeley, Stanford and UCLA. But if I get into all three I'd go for Berkeley. Been to a Cal campus tour and fell in love with the school right away. I cannot imagine studying somewhere else for law studies. my wife is from NJ, however, and there may be a chance that we would move there or in NY in the future.

Not trying to be a prestige whore, but if you care at all about working for a firm, and you get into all 3, picking any of them other than Stanford would be borderline insane. I don't think you realize the reputation gap between Stanford and Boalt outside of California. Actually, I don't think a lot of Cali people realize that. My friends from California seem to view Berkeley as only being slightly behind Stanford (I've heard that Cali firms feel this way as well) but for people in the rest of the country there's a big difference.

IDK brochacho, in NYC, Stanford places like a T-6 and berk places like an MVP.

You're mistaking low interest level for lack of placement ability. Most Stanford grads aren't pining for the V10 firms in NYC, most Columbia and NYU grads are. Stanford grads tend to pine for some of the most selective firms in the country, outside of Watchtell and Williams and Connolly those firms aren't really in the V10 (ie Munger, Keker, Kellog Huber, etc.). If a Stanford grad is going for Davis Polk, Cleary, or Sullivan etc. he's going to have an easier time than a NYU/CLS grad---by a long shot.

I'm noticing this new trend on TLS to only focusing on placement numbers into the massive NYC firms, which is starting to twist people's understanding of placement ability.

BruceWayne wrote:

Veyron wrote:

BruceWayne wrote:

atitz wrote:wow, thanks guys, especially to IzziesGal for the very informative posts.

I'm not really thrilled about working in the East Coast. I still would want to work in the West Coast, if I were to choose. But I'd like to attend a law school that has at least some recognition in the East Coast for just in case. I'm from Asia and I would be paying full fees. And, if I have to spend that much, I'd rather that my school has some recognition in both Coasts.

I already got into USC last year, but I deferred. I'll be applying to Berkeley, Stanford and UCLA. But if I get into all three I'd go for Berkeley. Been to a Cal campus tour and fell in love with the school right away. I cannot imagine studying somewhere else for law studies. my wife is from NJ, however, and there may be a chance that we would move there or in NY in the future.

Not trying to be a prestige whore, but if you care at all about working for a firm, and you get into all 3, picking any of them other than Stanford would be borderline insane. I don't think you realize the reputation gap between Stanford and Boalt outside of California. Actually, I don't think a lot of Cali people realize that. My friends from California seem to view Berkeley as only being slightly behind Stanford (I've heard that Cali firms feel this way as well) but for people in the rest of the country there's a big difference.

IDK brochacho, in NYC, Stanford places like a T-6 and berk places like an MVP.

You're mistaking low interest level for lack of placement ability. Most Stanford grads aren't pining for the V10 firms in NYC, most Columbia and NYU grads are. Stanford grads tend to pine for some of the most selective firms in the country, outside of Watchtell and Williams and Connolly those firms aren't really in the V10 (ie Munger, Keker, Kellog Huber, etc.). If a Stanford grad is going for Davis Polk, Cleary, or Sullivan etc. he's going to have an easier time than a NYU/CLS grad---by a long shot.

I'm noticing this new trend on TLS to only focusing on placement numbers into the massive NYC firms, which is starting to twist people's understanding of placement ability.

The stats, which I cannot post show that in the past 10 years, the vast majority of SLS students who get offers at the V10 NYC firms turn them down. Some for the firms Bruce has listed, but mainly for other "more lifestyle-ish" firms in CA. I put lifestyle in quotes b/c it's all relative. no biglaw gig is going to be easy. Most of my class who have offers at the V5 are not taking it. For example one V5 gets 2 to 3 each year but give offers to 10+ (and no it's not Skadden. They get less than that).

legends159 wrote:The stats, which I cannot post show that in the past 10 years, the vast majority of SLS students who get offers at the V10 NYC firms turn them down. Some for the firms Bruce has listed, but mainly for other "more lifestyle-ish" firms in CA. I put lifestyle in quotes b/c it's all relative. no biglaw gig is going to be easy. Most of my class who have offers at the V5 are not taking it. For example one V5 gets 2 to 3 each year but give offers to 10+ (and no it's not Skadden. They get less than that).

Exactly. There is this new trend on here of viewing the schools who send the most people to big NYC firms as the strongest schools; it's inflating the reputations of Columbia, NYU, Penn, and Duke.

legends159 wrote:

The stats, which I cannot post show that in the past 10 years, the vast majority of SLS students who get offers at the V10 NYC firms turn them down. Some for the firms Bruce has listed, but mainly for other "more lifestyle-ish" firms in CA. I put lifestyle in quotes b/c it's all relative. no biglaw gig is going to be easy. Most of my class who have offers at the V5 are not taking it. For example one V5 gets 2 to 3 each year but give offers to 10+ (and no it's not Skadden. They get less than that).

That's really interesting. It's almost the total opposite at Berkeley, where people are rankings obsessed. I, too, am more interested in the lifestylish firms and would turn down a V5 or even a V20 for a culture I liked better, and people at Boalt often think I'm nuts for this. Kinda funny that Berkeley, which is ranked lower than Stanford, is more obsessed with Vault rankings than you guys.