Top Law Schools

I am deciding where to ED and I feel like I have a good shot at either one, but am unsure which I prefer more. I am aware that in either case I will be stuck paying sticker price. I am interested in clerking somewhere in NJ, NYC area and after that working in a DA's office or for an AG. I don't mind working in BigLaw, but I feel like that is something I would do only if I could not get one of my first two options, namely clerking and then some kind of government job. Which of the two gives me better options?

vsl89 wrote:I am deciding where to ED and I feel like I have a good shot at either one, but am unsure which I prefer more. I am aware that in either case I will be stuck paying sticker price. I am interested in clerking somewhere in NJ, NYC area and after that working in a DA's office or for an AG. I don't mind working in BigLaw, but I feel like that is something I would do only if I could not get one of my first two options, namely clerking and then some kind of government job. Which of the two gives me better options?

NYU slightly I'd say. Although we're not talking a huge difference, so if you prefer one location or school or atmosphere to the other, you should attend the school you prefer. You're going to be there for 3 years, so choose the school you will be most happy at.

I'd pick NYU for the location and their public interest reputation.

vsl89 wrote:I am deciding where to ED and I feel like I have a good shot at either one, but am unsure which I prefer more. I am aware that in either case I will be stuck paying sticker price. I am interested in clerking somewhere in NJ, NYC area and after that working in a DA's office or for an AG. I don't mind working in BigLaw, but I feel like that is something I would do only if I could not get one of my first two options, namely clerking and then some kind of government job. Which of the two gives me better options?

The other posters make good points, but I've researched Penn and there are some clinics and programs that would set you up pretty well for a clerkship. The most important part to clerking and then becoming an ADA won't be choosing between NYU and Penn, but rather how highly ranked you are at the end of the day. To this end visit the schools and choose whichever you like better, because usually comfort= better grades and better class rank. Luckily there isn't a wrong answer to Penn vs NYU.

0Ls giving advice on picking schools is so stupid; it's the blind leading the blind. And, OP, even if you claim you don't want biglaw, the option is always nice. Instead of asking 0Ls, you should be reading the OCI threads here and on xoxo, and talking to friends at each school (don't have any, then make some -- email some UG alums or something) and find out what the score is on the battlefield. ITE has decimated all traditional notions of the t10, and, imo, it's HYSCN or bust for the typical (read: median) student.

frost wrote:I'd pick NYU for the location and their public interest reputation.

x1000000

If I knew I was interested in any kind of public interest or government work, Penn would be the first T10 crossed off my list.

solidsnake wrote:ITE has decimated all traditional notions of the t10, and, imo, it's HYSCN or bust for the typical (read: median) student.

What is ITE?

eberryhill7 wrote:

solidsnake wrote:ITE has decimated all traditional notions of the t10, and, imo, it's HYSCN or bust for the typical (read: median) student.

What is ITE?

The worst three words that an inspiring lawyer will ever heard..."in this economy." Usually meant and used as "the economy sucks, times are tough right now." Like, ITE, you need median at a T-14 to get a job at XYZ, etc.

eberryhill7 wrote:

solidsnake wrote:ITE has decimated all traditional notions of the t10, and, imo, it's HYSCN or bust for the typical (read: median) student.

What is ITE?

ITE= In This Economy. The job prospects that top ten schools considered standard in the past have dried up in the last few years, while top five schools still do relatively well even below median. Thus the HYSCN or bust mindset that has become more prevalent in the last year or so of law school admissions.

St.Remy wrote:

eberryhill7 wrote:

solidsnake wrote:ITE has decimated all traditional notions of the t10, and, imo, it's HYSCN or bust for the typical (read: median) student.

What is ITE?

ITE= In This Economy. The job prospects that top ten schools considered standard in the past have dried up in the last few years, while top five schools still do relatively well even below median. Thus the HYSCN or bust mindset that has become more prevalent in the last year or so of law school admissions.

Although, to be fair to U. Chicago, which is holding the #5 spot, we should be talking about the "HYSCC" or bust mindset.

Knockglock wrote:

St.Remy wrote:

eberryhill7 wrote:

solidsnake wrote:ITE has decimated all traditional notions of the t10, and, imo, it's HYSCN or bust for the typical (read: median) student.

What is ITE?

ITE= In This Economy. The job prospects that top ten schools considered standard in the past have dried up in the last few years, while top five schools still do relatively well even below median. Thus the HYSCN or bust mindset that has become more prevalent in the last year or so of law school admissions.

Although, to be fair to U. Chicago, which is holding the #5 spot, we should be talking about the "HYSCC" or bust mindset.

I haven't been following it that closely but I've heard Chicago's OCI has been a slaughterhouse, and that the Chicago career opportunities that make up the mainstay of UChi employment have not been showing up this year. Since NYU still seems to be doing okay I'll stick with my HYSCN statement from earlier.

St.Remy wrote:

Knockglock wrote:

St.Remy wrote:

eberryhill7 wrote: What is ITE?

ITE= In This Economy. The job prospects that top ten schools considered standard in the past have dried up in the last few years, while top five schools still do relatively well even below median. Thus the HYSCN or bust mindset that has become more prevalent in the last year or so of law school admissions.

Although, to be fair to U. Chicago, which is holding the #5 spot, we should be talking about the "HYSCC" or bust mindset.

I haven't been following it that closely but I've heard Chicago's OCI has been a slaughterhouse, and that the Chicago career opportunities that make up the mainstay of UChi employment have not been showing up this year. Since NYU still seems to be doing okay I'll stick with my HYSCN statement from earlier.

Fair enough.

solidsnake wrote:0Ls giving advice on picking schools is so stupid; it's the blind leading the blind. And, OP, even if you claim you don't want biglaw, the option is always nice. Instead of asking 0Ls, you should be reading the OCI threads here and on xoxo, and talking to friends at each school (don't have any, then make some -- email some UG alums or something) and find out what the score is on the battlefield. ITE has decimated all traditional notions of the t10, and, imo, it's HYSCN or bust for the typical (read: median) student.

i think i'm missing something here. what would OCI data bring to the table for clerkship/gov information? From what I can tell its all just info about BigLaw hiring. I guess it would indicate the amount of people that would have gone to big law but will now maybe go for clerkship/gov since they didn't get an offer? Telling us what/how to get info on non-firm prospects form OCI data would be super helpful.
Thanks!

solidsnake wrote:0Ls giving advice on picking schools is so stupid; it's the blind leading the blind. And, OP, even if you claim you don't want biglaw, the option is always nice. Instead of asking 0Ls, you should be reading the OCI threads here and on xoxo, and talking to friends at each school (don't have any, then make some -- email some UG alums or something) and find out what the score is on the battlefield. ITE has decimated all traditional notions of the t10, and, imo, it's HYSCN or bust for the typical (read: median) student.

Not sure why you're assuming we're 0Ls. I'm a 2L at Fordham, not top of my class and I have 5-10 callbacks. OP will certainly have the "option" for biglaw at NYU and Penn. The reality is that it's harder to get a biglaw job at ANY school compared to the way it was a few years ago. That doesn't change the advice that I have to give OP in terms of whether NYU or Penn is better for his goals.

frost wrote:

solidsnake wrote:0Ls giving advice on picking schools is so stupid; it's the blind leading the blind. And, OP, even if you claim you don't want biglaw, the option is always nice. Instead of asking 0Ls, you should be reading the OCI threads here and on xoxo, and talking to friends at each school (don't have any, then make some -- email some UG alums or something) and find out what the score is on the battlefield. ITE has decimated all traditional notions of the t10, and, imo, it's HYSCN or bust for the typical (read: median) student.

Not sure why you're assuming we're 0Ls. I'm a 2L at Fordham, not top of my class and I have 5-10 callbacks. OP will certainly have the "option" for biglaw at NYU and Penn. The reality is that it's harder to get a biglaw job at ANY school compared to the way it was a few years ago. That doesn't change the advice that I have to give OP in terms of whether NYU or Penn is better for his goals.

Read the topic sentence, genius. I didn't say OP shouldn't take advice from anyone in this thread. I said 0Ls shouldn't give advice on picking schools. Does that apply to you then?

And there will always be a few outlier schools outside the t10 like GW and Fordham that have decent placement, but I also wasn't talking about that. OP is deciding between one school within HYSCN and one school that is not. Furthermore, firms don't look at USNEWS and see UCHI move from 6 to 5 and say, "guess we better step up hiring there." My guess is that, based on this and last year's (this year being an only marginal upswing) OCI trends, they hire from the schools from where the plurality of partners and associates hail and where the callbacks are cheaper. OP has no idea where OP is going to end up in the class and should therefore take the safer bet between choosing schools. And, yes, this entire spiel only applies biglaw hiring. For fed clerking you are going to need to be top of the class, a large presumption for an 0L, and if you end up there, your biglaw options from Penn or NYU will most likely be identical. I'm talking about the typical student, which ex ante you should assume you will be.

solidsnake wrote:Read the topic sentence, genius. I didn't say OP shouldn't take advice from anyone in this thread. I said 0Ls shouldn't give advice on picking schools. Does that apply to you then?

And there will always be a few outlier schools outside the t10 like GW and Fordham that have decent placement, but I also wasn't talking about that. OP is deciding between one school within HYSCN and one school that is not. Furthermore, firms don't look at USNEWS and see UCHI move from 6 to 5 and say, "guess we better step up hiring there." My guess is that, based on this year's OCI trends, they hire from the schools from where the plurality of partners and associates hail and where the callbacks are cheaper. OP has no idea where OP is going to end up in the class and should therefore take the safer bet between choosing schools. And, yes, this entire spiel only applies biglaw hiring. For fed clerking you are going to need to be top of the class, a large presumption for an 0L, and if you end up there, your biglaw options from Penn or NYU will most likely be identical. I'm talking about the typical student, which ex ante you should assume you will be.

WTF? You do know that historically (basically period) UChi has had a better reputation with firms right? If anything NYU's rep on this board as being "top 5" or "top 6" is what's fueled by US News. Most firms have been putting Chicago ahead of NYU for years. All the objective placement stats have put it ahead as well.

BruceWayne wrote:

solidsnake wrote:Read the topic sentence, genius. I didn't say OP shouldn't take advice from anyone in this thread. I said 0Ls shouldn't give advice on picking schools. Does that apply to you then?

And there will always be a few outlier schools outside the t10 like GW and Fordham that have decent placement, but I also wasn't talking about that. OP is deciding between one school within HYSCN and one school that is not. Furthermore, firms don't look at USNEWS and see UCHI move from 6 to 5 and say, "guess we better step up hiring there." My guess is that, based on this year's OCI trends, they hire from the schools from where the plurality of partners and associates hail and where the callbacks are cheaper. OP has no idea where OP is going to end up in the class and should therefore take the safer bet between choosing schools. And, yes, this entire spiel only applies biglaw hiring. For fed clerking you are going to need to be top of the class, a large presumption for an 0L, and if you end up there, your biglaw options from Penn or NYU will most likely be identical. I'm talking about the typical student, which ex ante you should assume you will be.

WTF? You do know that historically (basically period) UChi has had a better reputation with firms right? If anything NYU's rep on this board as being "top 5" or "top 6" is what's fueled by US News. Most firms have been putting Chicago ahead of NYU for years. All the objective placement stats have put it ahead as well.

I have friends at UCHI, 0L, and I'm not about to get into a flame war with you over this. But OCI was rough over there, rougher than other places (despite "historically blah blah" -- ite changed things). Until you've been through it stfu and gtfo.

NYU above median is cleaning up at OCI this year. Can't say the same for Penn.

And so far this year, the hiring trend seems to show that NYU is better for NYC than UChicago. It may be because NYU had their EIW so early and Chicago so late and it's still too early to really draw any conclusions though.

I'd take NYU over UPenn any day of the week. That being said, I would choose which to ED to based on your numbers.

solidsnake wrote:I have friends at UCHI, 0L, and I'm not about to get into a flame war with you over this. But OCI was rough over there, rougher than other places (despite "historically blah blah" -- ite changed things). Until you've been through it stfu and gtfo.

WTF? One, I'm not an 0L. And 2 even if I was the only way for personal experience to answer this question is if you went through OCI at both schools. How the fuck have you gone through it? Did you get your JD from NYU and Chicago? My point was that your bullshit about firms not looking at US News and seeing a one spot switch in the rankings as a reason to change hiring patterns actually goes against your point about NYU hiring being stronger. GTFO with your 0L bullshit. That whole 0L shit is got to be the weakest line of reasoning around, particularly arguing it in September when you're not a 3L.

Oy. Don't derail the OP's thread with stupid arguments comparing NYU and Chi. They're both fantastic schools, it's too soon to make judgments about OCI this year, and most importantly, OP hasn't asked about Chicago!

As far as Penn v NYU, one important consideration should be where you want to live and work. If it's the NYC area, then understand upfront that those positions are VERY competitive. NYU will give you an edge, but your individual record will matter far, far more.

If you'd like to work outside the NYC area, I'd say pick whichever school you're more excited about.

Also, given the ITE problems, BigLaw is a weird Plan B; but NYU will certainly provide more of a BigLaw cushion.

Philadelphia is a better place to live, for what it's worth.

2ofspades wrote:

frost wrote:I'd pick NYU for the location and their public interest reputation.

x1000000

If I knew I was interested in any kind of public interest or government work, Penn would be the first T10 crossed off my list.

Why's that?

johnnyutah wrote:Philadelphia is a better place to live, for what it's worth.

This is a rare situation in which your comment deals with a very subjective field (good places to live), and yet is also objectively false.

I'm kidding, of course. Philadelphia is very nice, but I love the Village too.