Phoenix School of Law vs. Appalachian School of Law Forum

[BG4444]

You're all idiots. This is a flame.

what do you mean

[BG4444]

Email Candy, she might have something for u.

I'm kinda new to these boards, you guys need a glossary.

[Danteshek]

You do understand that attorneys double check their work, right?

[BG4444]

You do understand that attorneys double check their work, right?

Yeah.

[BG4444]

OP, assuming you're not a flame, your 3 options are outlined below.

Option A:
1. Don't go to law school

Option B:
1. Go to one of these schools
2. Go into crippling, life-long debt
3. Upon graduation, look for a job as a lawyer for 5+ years after graduation while working for free underneath your choice of local ambulance chasers
4. Realize that your school choice destroyed any chance you had at something resembling a career in law
5. Change Careers

Option C:
1. Go to neither school
2: Take as many easy UG classes over the next 1-2 years as possible
3. Get all A's, boost GPA to 3.0+
4. Study relentlessly for the LSAT at the same time, find a school (somewhere will bite) to get you a waiver for the 4th LSAT
5. Apply on the first possible date to a wide range of splitter friendly schools (168, 3.0 would give you a shot at a scholly at WUSTL, Iowa, UIUC, IUB, and the like-all infintely better options than you're currently considering)

Thanks for this. Though none of those options sound decent. If I went to either of these schools, it sounds like I would have to transfer or do extremely well and get lucky...things I should not rely on.

[20160810]

OP, assuming you're not a flame, your 3 options are outlined below.

Option A:
1. Don't go to law school

Option B:
1. Go to one of these schools
2. Go into crippling, life-long debt
3. Upon graduation, look for a job as a lawyer for 5+ years after graduation while working for free underneath your choice of local ambulance chasers
4. Realize that your school choice destroyed any chance you had at something resembling a career in law
5. Change Careers

Option C:
1. Go to neither school
2: Take as many easy UG classes over the next 1-2 years as possible
3. Get all A's, boost GPA to 3.0+
4. Study relentlessly for the LSAT at the same time, find a school (somewhere will bite) to get you a waiver for the 4th LSAT
5. Apply on the first possible date to a wide range of splitter friendly schools (168, 3.0 would give you a shot at a scholly at WUSTL, Iowa, UIUC, IUB, and the like-all infintely better options than you're currently considering)

Thanks for this. Though none of those options sound decent. If I went to either of these schools, it sounds like I would have to transfer or do extremely well and get lucky...things I should not rely on.

It sounds like you get it. Both of these schools, at the cost you'd be paying, are literally worse options than just pursuing another career.

[BG4444]

I Googled PSL graduates and came across this website.
http://www.azcentral.com/business/abg/a ... l0522.html

It is the first set of grads from PSL, in May 2008. I emailed the first dozen (because their emails were all listed online from being employed in law), and so far I've gotten two responses. They were both very positive.

However, based on what I've heard in this thread, it seems like so much has changed from 2008. Does anyone know where I can find more current PSL graduates to speak with?

Why do you think would anyone would attend PSL? Are they just dreaming or did not get the memo?

[NU_Jet55]

Are they just dreaming or did not get the memo?

Every day, human beings make life-altering decisions without fully investigating the likely outcome of those decisions.

[20160810]

I Googled PSL graduates and came across this website.
http://www.azcentral.com/business/abg/a ... l0522.html

It is the first set of grads from PSL, in May 2008. I emailed the first dozen (because their emails were all listed online from being employed in law), and so far I've gotten two responses. They were both very positive.

However, based on what I've heard in this thread, it seems like so much has changed from 2008. Does anyone know where I can find more current PSL graduates to speak with?

Why do you think would anyone would attend PSL? Are they just dreaming or did not get the memo?

Everyone thinks they will finish top-5%/be the lucky ones/transfer. What they don't realize is that almost everyone thinks the same thing, and almost everyone fails. Never discount the reckless optimism of those with no alternative.

[Matthies]

I Googled PSL graduates and came across this website.
http://www.azcentral.com/business/abg/a ... l0522.html

It is the first set of grads from PSL, in May 2008. I emailed the first dozen (because their emails were all listed online from being employed in law), and so far I've gotten two responses. They were both very positive.

However, based on what I've heard in this thread, it seems like so much has changed from 2008. Does anyone know where I can find more current PSL graduates to speak with?

Why do you think would anyone would attend PSL? Are they just dreaming or did not get the memo?

Because it's the only shot to go part-time in what America's sixth largest city? I'm from Phoenix. I would have gone to PSL part-time in a heartbeat because I so wanted to stay in Phoenix, had my business there, my family there, own a bunch of real estate there (ok that part now SUX). But PSL did not exist then. ASU did not take me, and the closest part-time program was Denver. That's where I went and in hindsight love it here now.

But, I'd still be in Phoenix if PSL had existed or ASU had a part-time program. I worked through law school to defer costs and get legal experience. Would it have been harder to find a job from PSL, sure, but I've never relied on my schools name or schools career services to find any of my legal jobs for the past five years and I would not had I gone to PSL.

If you got the brass balls to make it work on your own and hustle, then to PSL (and think about going PT to save some money and get some experience) but if you can't walk into a room of strangers and start talking to them, then go to a schools whose rep will do the heavy lifting for you cause that's what its going to take plain and simple. The people who got jobs from PSL are the ones who could have sold frozen shit to an emksimo, if that's not you, don't go. There are people who will end up with good jobs from ANY law school and many who won't, but those people who will knew it befotre they went, you'd know buy now if your that guy or not. Your going to be doing all the job finding on your own, if you can't/won't do that then don't go, its only going to end badly but at least at PSL you got a real city to look in.

[sundevil77]

I Googled PSL graduates and came across this website.
http://www.azcentral.com/business/abg/a ... l0522.html

It is the first set of grads from PSL, in May 2008. I emailed the first dozen (because their emails were all listed online from being employed in law), and so far I've gotten two responses. They were both very positive.

However, based on what I've heard in this thread, it seems like so much has changed from 2008. Does anyone know where I can find more current PSL graduates to speak with?

Why do you think would anyone would attend PSL? Are they just dreaming or did not get the memo?

Because it's the only shot to go part-time in what America's sixth largest city? I'm from Phoenix. I would have gone to PSL part-time in a heartbeat because I so wanted to stay in Phoenix, had my business there, my family there, own a bunch of real estate there (ok that part now SUX). But PSL did not exist then. ASU did not take me, and the closest part-time program was Denver. That's where I went and in hindsight love it here now.

But, I'd still be in Phoenix if PSL had existed or ASU had a part-time program. I worked through law school to defer costs and get legal experience. Would it have been harder to find a job from PSL, sure, but I've never relied on my schools name or schools career services to find any of my legal jobs for the past five years and I would not had I gone to PSL.

If you got the brass balls to make it work on your own and hustle, then to PSL (and think about going PT to save some money and get some experience) but if you can't walk into a room of strangers and start talking to them, then go to a schools whose rep will do the heavy lifting for you cause that's what its going to take plain and simple. The people who got jobs from PSL are the ones who could have sold frozen shit to an emksimo, if that's not you, don't go. There are people who will end up with good jobs from ANY law school and many who won't, but those people who will knew it befotre they went, you'd know buy now if your that guy or not. Your going to be doing all the job finding on your own, if you can't/won't do that then don't go, its only going to end badly but at least at PSL you got a real city to look in.

Good advice here, OP. Don't even consider Applachian. PSL offers a possible alternative for some unique people- the type of people Matthies points out. The people I know that are considering going to PSL have deep roots here in AZ and will probably get a job strictly through friendships/networking. Being that you would be a newcomer to AZ, you would really have to get your hustle on and blanket the town. Either that or you can take the gamble of making top 5-10% and transferring out.

The school probably isn't as bad as some (including myself) make it out to be. The Arizona Bar magazine just published an article on PSL this month.

[romothesavior]

Neither. If this is not flame, please reassess the situation and do not go to either school

[maine08080]

Now that romo has arrived, let the reincarnation of NorB commence.

But seriously, these threads are epic fails.

[BG4444]

Would it be a completely foolish idea to attempt the first year or first semester at PSL, and if my class rank was not high enough, then drop out of PSL and pursue a different career? I might be able to know after one semester if I could be in the top 10%. If I wasn't, I might only suffer 1 semester or 1 year of loans opposed to 3 years. I could make use of this direction that I've been taking for over a year now, by taking 3 LSATs. What do you think?

[romothesavior]

Would it be a completely foolish idea to attempt the first year or first semester at PSL, and if my class rank was not high enough, then drop out of PSL and pursue a different career? I might be able to know after one semester if I could be in the top 10%. If I wasn't, I might only suffer 1 semester or 1 year of loans opposed to 3 years. I could make use of this direction that I've been taking for over a year now, by taking 3 LSATs. What do you think?

It would be far, far easier and far, far cheaper to take the LSAT, get a higher score, and go to a better school

[MTal]

The thread title literally made me LOL

[You Gotta Have Faith]

Because it's the only shot to go part-time in what America's sixth largest city?

This is mundane... and it doesn't really make much of a difference. But Phoenix is actually 5th largest now. It's technically an estimate until the current census is released; but last time around Philly was only a hair bigger and wasn't growing nearly like Phoenix.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un ... population

Just thought... hey, why not point that out. It surprised me when someone told me Phoenix was so big.

[BG4444]

It would be far, far easier and far, far cheaper to take the LSAT, get a higher score, and go to a better school

I got a 153,154,156, and in practice tests I could hit 157-160 fairly often. If I retake the LSAT I'd still have a 2.38 gpa to deal with. I'd have to find a new job, have a successful petition for a 4th LSAT, study the LSATs again, and get the 160+. Would a score like 160 only catapult me into a 3T? Would my options be that much better in that case? Would I only be able to apply to the school that accepted my petition for a 4th LSAT or could I use that score to apply anywhere? Is that far far easier than trying to get in the top 10% at PSL at this point?

[skoobily doobily]

It would be far, far easier and far, far cheaper to take the LSAT, get a higher score, and go to a better school

I got a 153,154,156, and in practice tests I could hit 157-160 fairly often. If I retake the LSAT I'd still have a 2.38 gpa to deal with. I'd have to find a new job, have a successful petition for a 4th LSAT, study the LSATs again, and get the 160+. Would a score like 160 only catapult me into a 3T? Would my options be that much better in that case? Would I only be able to apply to the school that accepted my petition for a 4th LSAT or could I use that score to apply anywhere? Is that far far easier than trying to get in the top 10% at PSL at this point?

OP, you sound like you are thinking about this reasonably, which puts you a step ahead of most of the posters who bring up these scenarios. You said that it sounds interesting and would consider it if it weren't a life crippling decision. Well lets look at some numbers: say you take out 130,000 for student loans for your three years. That's 43,333 a year which would assume you can scrape the floors at one of these law schools or have some sort of income during school. When you graduate, you're looking at paying exactly 1,500 a month for 10 years. You're 23? you'll be 33 before you're out of student loan debt. but with a 50k a year job before taxes paying that much is just out of the question, as you're looking at around 25k or less after taxes. So lets make it 25 years. You'll be paying off 900 dollars a month until you're 48. Does that sound enticing to you?

Let's look into some details now. Those numbers are calculated at 6.8% which is the APR for stafford. But you'll have to take out significant GradPlus as well, which accrues at 7.9% interest. So the payments go up about 100$ a month. This doesn't include the 4% interest fee that GradPlus charges when you take out loans. So assuming you can grab a job paying 50k, you'll be paying about 1/3 of your income to loan repayment until you are 48. Does this sound enticing? Other things to consider: you'll be losing 3 years of wages, albeit cost of living is sunk as you'll have to live either way, but you won't be paying for it on a tab charging 7.9% interest. Think about it this way: at about 1,000 a month, finding a 50k job will turn into a 38K job. Think you can find a job that pays 38K right now? Then you're 3 years ahead of the game.

Most of those calculations at the bottom were based on the assumption that you could find a 50K job. I suggest that you spend a good amount of time looking through the employment threads on this website. There are a significant number of graduates at very reputable schools (T1 schools) who would sell there firstborn child for a 50k job right now. You're aware that the market is currently recovering from a recession, and typically one of the last sectors to recover is the employment. OP I want you to realize, you are deciding between two of the very worst schools in the nation. This is not an exaggeration, these are two of the worst accredited schools in the nation. Probably less than 10-15% of either class will find meaning, payable, legal employment upon graduation. If the above paragraph sounds sobering, understand that you have at best a 1/6 chance of even reaching that scenario. I want you to sit down and really, truly, honestly, think to yourself: having a 6 figure debt and no employment IS hands down the most likely scenario of me going to either one of these schools.

have you graduated from UG yet? if so, then you're GPA is set in stone, there's nothing you can do about it. If you would rather die than not go to law school, then gear your life toward retaking at the next possible opportunity (whenever the first LSAT you took expires), study twice as hard as you did for the first three, and reapply to better schools. In all likelyhood, as it sounds like law schools is not an unquenchable burning desire within you, it is my opinion that you should drop the idea altogether. Nobody here is saying that to get a rise out of you, or to feel better about themselves, but it really is the best advice any person can give you.

Think about it.

[BG4444]

This assessment and breakdown of the loan is most appreciated.

In a previous post, I brought up the idea of attending for one year, or even one semester, to determine whether I would be in the top of the class, and be able to transfer to a better school. I suppose this would cut my loan into 1/3 or 1/6 if I did not reach my goal by the end of the year or end of the semester respectively. And if I failed I would forget about law altogether, pursue another career, and pay off loans in that direction.

Someone suggested that I should petition to retake the LSAT, others say quit. I am 27, and I'm honestly looking for reasons to give this school a shot. I feel momentum of finishing 3 LSATs and the motivation to top the class. I refuse to become delusional about my chances of success, and so at this point it may seem like I am reaching for ideas. So again, I'd like to know what people here think about taking a stab at the first semester opposed to retaking the LSAT or quitting now.

[Notor]

I can't believe this is being taken seriously.

[BG4444]

I can't believe this is being taken seriously.

There's about a half dozen or so who've said basically the same thing.
I appreciate any serious suggestions.

[20160810]

For what it's worth, this guy's IP doesn't suggest an alt, and I have no reason to believe this is a flame. Not everyone has the numbers to decide between T1 schools; until otherwise noted, please address the question seriously and treat as a non-flame. Thank you.

[Matthies]

This assessment and breakdown of the loan is most appreciated.

In a previous post, I brought up the idea of attending for one year, or even one semester, to determine whether I would be in the top of the class, and be able to transfer to a better school. I suppose this would cut my loan into 1/3 or 1/6 if I did not reach my goal by the end of the year or end of the semester respectively. And if I failed I would forget about law altogether, pursue another career, and pay off loans in that direction.

Someone suggested that I should petition to retake the LSAT, others say quit. I am 27, and I'm honestly looking for reasons to give this school a shot. I feel momentum of finishing 3 LSATs and the motivation to top the class. I refuse to become delusional about my chances of success, and so at this point it may seem like I am reaching for ideas. So again, I'd like to know what people here think about taking a stab at the first semester opposed to retaking the LSAT or quitting now.

I would not really recommend this plan. law school is intense, and really takes a concerted effort to do well. Espiclly give that PSL likely has a serious grade deflation. I mean you bring up one of the major drawbacks of law school and the law in general, because of the bar and such, there really is no way to "try before you buy" and figure out if you're going to like the law or even more important, actually be good at it.

Going to test the waters, well i don't know. I think you need to be highly motivated to do well and do what you need to secure a job out of this school. I'm not saying you're not, but personally if I had it in the back of my mind I'm just going to try this law school thing for a sesmter and see how it goes, it would have been much easier for me slack off when the going got though.

My personal view is go all the way or don't go.

With your current LSATs you should be bale to get into some higer ranked programs PT, any reason why you have not cosnidered this avenue?

[RVP11]

Because it's the only shot to go part-time in what America's sixth largest city?

This is mundane... and it doesn't really make much of a difference. But Phoenix is actually 5th largest now. It's technically an estimate until the current census is released; but last time around Philly was only a hair bigger and wasn't growing nearly like Phoenix.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un ... population

Just thought... hey, why not point that out. It surprised me when someone told me Phoenix was so big.

Measuring by city population is misleading - measuring by metro area population is far more informative. Phoenix has around 4 million in the area, but is not even top 10 in metro area population.

Also keep in mind that Phoenix is a young city with very little big business for its size. And as a legal market it's not even top 20 in size and less than half the size of Philadelphia.

Phoenix, as a legal market, is more comparable to San Diego or Portland than to Dallas or Houston or Philadelphia.