Top Law Schools

Hi all, I would like your advice on making this decision, and I have VERY little (read: almost no) time to decide.
St. John’s:
1. Scholarship stipulation = Top 50%
2. To secure mentorship, interviewed and selected by prominent local judges and partners who committed to assisting scholar with career
3. Total law school debt will be approx. $60k (Cost of living)
4. I’m not from New York and have no connections there, but excited to make a change in my life since I was born and raised in North Cal.
5. EDIT: Forgot to mention:Already paid $1.5k tuition dep. $2.4k security deposit for lease, and I don't think these are just "sunk costs" because if I decide not to go to St. John's, I'll loose the tuition deposit refund I'm owed and will again owe a new security deposit for a place here in town. These aren't HUGE losses, but it's not just pennies, and it's headache. I was planning on going to St. John's until I heard back recently.

UC Davis:
1. Attended for undergrad, went to local high school, and friends and family are all here
2. If I stay here, I will prob. want to practice in San Fran, but concerned about market competition (obviously everyone wants to work in New York too, but there are more jobs there as well.)
3. Total law school debt will be approx. $110k

Other considerations:
1. Serious GF at home, but she’s willing to move out to New York if I decide that’s best.
2. I think North Cal weather is too cold and rainy, and the weather is important to me, but perhaps New York isn’t that much better.
3. Career goals: I currently want solid clerkship => solid firm job
(Doesn’t HAVE to be amazing clerkship => biglaw, but obviously if I do well enough at either school, I will try to go that route.)
Honestly, I’m leaning toward St. John’s because a) in this economy, connections are key and mentors might be greater than college friends in this regard b) by mitigating the total debt load, the scholarship gives me better exit options out of law if I don’t like it/can’t cut it. c) I’m ready for a life change. Yet I can’t help but worry that I’m just having an early life crisis.

What do you think?

Hey, PM me your name, I went to DHS / UCD also =D - I would go to UCD for sure

edit: I guess some reasoning is kind of necessary. I think UCD has better career prospects in No CA than does St. J. in NY. UCD grads do well in SF and dominate Sac. I get the need to get away, but if you have a serious GF it seems silly to arbitrarily move.... you can always go to the bay area when you graduate.

double edit: if you think No CA. is cold then you would die in NY. When I moved from the east coast to Davis I was amazed by how WARM it was. Have you ever lived a cold winter (with days well below 0?).

Hello fellow UCD grads.

I think it's pretty clear UCD. Job prospects out of St. John's are slim in spite of the full scholly, especially since you want a solid firm job. You could try to network yourself to get a job in LA/SD if you don't like the weather up here.

what good is a free degree if it doesnt get you a job?

General Tso wrote:what good is a free degree if it doesnt get you a job?

I don't want to argue about exactly how bad this legal economy is (clearly it is bad), but I think that sweeping statement is not useful in my decision. People from St. John's get jobs, and some get great ones.

I want to reference this useful, albiet slightly outdated, chart as an example: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414 ... trends.pdf

St. John's biglaw ~9% of the class
Davis ~17% of the class

So here's the question: Is ~8% improvement really worth $50,000 +interest? (Maybe it is; you tell me)

And for clerkships: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =1&t=75513

Each school had only 2 grads score Article III clerkships. (But yes, Davis has a smaller class size.)

And finally, with regard to the competition, isn't there some chance that I'm more likely to rank higher at St. John's based on admissions criteria, despite the fact that admissions criteria obviously does not perfectly predict sucess? Afterall, I squeeked into Davis (LSAT below median, not URM), but I'm in the top 3% of students receiving full rides at St. Johns.

I am too lazy to get into a debate about the predictive value of admission criteria but the bottom line is that 17% is a LOT more than 9% which pretty much sums up the reason I think Davis is a no brainer.

Teoeo wrote:I am too lazy to get into a debate about the predictive value of admission criteria but the bottom line is that 17% is a LOT more than 9% which pretty much sums up the reason I think Davis is a no brainer.

I appreciate your brevity. Since 17 less 9 is still only 8, I'm not convinced that the difference is that huge given the pricetag. That's $6,250 PER percentage point, but gain I appreciate your point of view.

aPosseAdEsse wrote:

Teoeo wrote:I am too lazy to get into a debate about the predictive value of admission criteria but the bottom line is that 17% is a LOT more than 9% which pretty much sums up the reason I think Davis is a no brainer.

I appreciate your brevity. Since 17 less 9 is still only 8, I'm not convinced that the difference is that huge given the pricetag. That's $6,250 PER percentage point, but gain I appreciate your point of view.

Well, if you want to be technical your stipend means you should pretend you got a half tuition scholarship in your math =)

aPosseAdEsse wrote:

Teoeo wrote:I am too lazy to get into a debate about the predictive value of admission criteria but the bottom line is that 17% is a LOT more than 9% which pretty much sums up the reason I think Davis is a no brainer.

I appreciate your brevity. Since 17 less 9 is still only 8, I'm not convinced that the difference is that huge given the pricetag. That's $6,250 PER percentage point, but gain I appreciate your point of view.

I imagine that non-OCI jobs out of Davis are both easier to land and pay better than non-OCI jobs from St Johns

aPosseAdEsse wrote:Hi all, I would like your advice on making this decision, and I have VERY little (read: almost no) time to decide.
St. John’s:
1. Scholarship stipulation = Top 50%
2. To secure mentorship, interviewed and selected by prominent local judges and partners who committed to assisting scholar with career
3. Total law school debt will be approx. $60k (Cost of living)
4. I’m not from New York and have no connections there, but excited to make a change in my life since I was born and raised in North Cal.
5. EDIT: Forgot to mention:Already paid $1.5k tuition dep. $2.4k security deposit for lease, and I don't think these are just "sunk costs" because if I decide not to go to St. John's, I'll loose the tuition deposit refund I'm owed and will again owe a new security deposit for a place here in town. These aren't HUGE losses, but it's not just pennies, and it's headache. I was planning on going to St. John's until I heard back recently.

UC Davis:
1. Attended for undergrad, went to local high school, and friends and family are all here
2. If I stay here, I will prob. want to practice in San Fran, but concerned about market competition (obviously everyone wants to work in New York too, but there are more jobs there as well.)
3. Total law school debt will be approx. $110k

Other considerations:
1. Serious GF at home, but she’s willing to move out to New York if I decide that’s best.
2. I think North Cal weather is too cold and rainy, and the weather is important to me, but perhaps New York isn’t that much better.
3. Career goals: I currently want solid clerkship => solid firm job
(Doesn’t HAVE to be amazing clerkship => biglaw, but obviously if I do well enough at either school, I will try to go that route.)
Honestly, I’m leaning toward St. John’s because a) in this economy, connections are key and mentors might be greater than college friends in this regard b) by mitigating the total debt load, the scholarship gives me better exit options out of law if I don’t like it/can’t cut it. c) I’m ready for a life change. Yet I can’t help but worry that I’m just having an early life crisis.

What do you think?

if there's no stipulation on the davis scholarship then it's a no brainer...choose davis.

aPosseAdEsse wrote:

General Tso wrote:what good is a free degree if it doesnt get you a job?

I don't want to argue about exactly how bad this legal economy is (clearly it is bad), but I think that sweeping statement is not useful in my decision. People from St. John's get jobs, and some get great ones.

I want to reference this useful, albiet slightly outdated, chart as an example: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414 ... trends.pdf

St. John's biglaw ~9% of the class
Davis ~17% of the class

So here's the question: Is ~8% improvement really worth $50,000 +interest? (Maybe it is; you tell me)

And for clerkships: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =1&t=75513

Each school had only 2 grads score Article III clerkships. (But yes, Davis has a smaller class size.)

And finally, with regard to the competition, isn't there some chance that I'm more likely to rank higher at St. John's based on admissions criteria, despite the fact that admissions criteria obviously does not perfectly predict sucess? Afterall, I squeeked into Davis (LSAT below median, not URM), but I'm in the top 3% of students receiving full rides at St. Johns.

Citing charts from pre-ITE and assuming that the downturn of hiring has been evenly proportioned across all schools is not a proper way of measuring prospects. Everything after the T-35ish range is simply a black hole.

Always Credited wrote:

aPosseAdEsse wrote:

General Tso wrote:what good is a free degree if it doesnt get you a job?

I don't want to argue about exactly how bad this legal economy is (clearly it is bad), but I think that sweeping statement is not useful in my decision. People from St. John's get jobs, and some get great ones.

I want to reference this useful, albiet slightly outdated, chart as an example: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414 ... trends.pdf

St. John's biglaw ~9% of the class
Davis ~17% of the class

So here's the question: Is ~8% improvement really worth $50,000 +interest? (Maybe it is; you tell me)

And for clerkships: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =1&t=75513

Each school had only 2 grads score Article III clerkships. (But yes, Davis has a smaller class size.)

And finally, with regard to the competition, isn't there some chance that I'm more likely to rank higher at St. John's based on admissions criteria, despite the fact that admissions criteria obviously does not perfectly predict sucess? Afterall, I squeeked into Davis (LSAT below median, not URM), but I'm in the top 3% of students receiving full rides at St. Johns.

Citing charts from pre-ITE and assuming that the downturn of hiring has been evenly proportioned across all schools is not a proper way of measuring prospects. Everything after the T-35ish range is simply a black hole.

Ya, the schools in the black hole area have SUCKY prospects.

BAZINGA

wtf is a menTTTorship?

mistergoft wrote:wtf is a menTTTorship?

Thanks for your contribution.

aPosseAdEsse wrote:

mistergoft wrote:wtf is a menTTTorship?

Thanks for your contribution.

Your interest is in Biglaw and you're choosing between two schools that do not place well in biglaw with no regional preference. What am I supposed to contribute? Flip a coin. UCD gives you a marginally better chance at achieving your goals. Neither school will place well outside of its respective region.

Go to UCD. I don't know about St. Johns I'm from CA as well, but it does dominate SAC and it does very well in SF as well. It's not huge in LA but would be competitive in SD. You would have much more competition in NY...Harvard, Fordham, NYU, BC, Columbia, not to mention other schools with similar reputations Seton Hall, Hoftra, Buffalo. In Nor. CA you would only compete with Stanford, Berkeley and UC Hastings and in So cal only UCLA and USC (maybe USD)...but other than that not a whole lot.

mistergoft wrote:

aPosseAdEsse wrote:

mistergoft wrote:wtf is a menTTTorship?

Thanks for your contribution.

Your interest is in Biglaw and you're choosing between two schools that do not place well in biglaw with no regional preference. What am I supposed to contribute? Flip a coin. UCD gives you a marginally better chance at achieving your goals. Neither school will place well outside of its respective region.

That's actually helpful. Assuming you're right about both, and given that St. John's is $50,000+interest cheaper, I'm def. leaning toward St. John's.

aPosseAdEsse wrote:That's actually helpful. Assuming you're right about both, and given that St. John's is $50,000+interest cheaper, I'm def. leaning toward St. John's.

Just remember there's opportunity cost + the fact that if you retake your lsat you're going to significantly increase your ability to land gainful employment.

3 years of opportunity to earn; it'd be a shame if you weren't earning much more out of law school (or earning less, as some people might even have to take a hit in salary just in order to do SOMETHING law related in a desperate attempt to gain legal experience). And don't forget that with the current market saturation, not landing viable (or any) legal employment is a real possibility, which is exacerbated by the fact that you're attending a school with poor job placement in the most saturated market in the country.

All the mentorship and BS from St. Johns won't matter to big firms. Unless you're top-2-3% in your class there, and the odds are overwhelming that you won't be, you won't be getting biglaw. Things aren't much better at UCD, but I know people who've swung it with top-15%, and that's a LOT better the alternative.

If you said you were interested in govt/PI work, I'd say take the money, but if that's not the case, you really don't want to pass up a T30 degree if you can help it.

OP it sees like your mind is pretty much made up. I think St. Johns is the wrong choice, and I think you will feel silly if you don't place at the absolute top of your class but maybe I am completely off. GL either way man.

Going to NYC will alone be a gamble. You might like it, or not, but regardless you'll most likely be stuck out there for the foreseeable future. With a degree a fair ways down the NYC legal food-chain. At least in NorCal you (should) have a better idea of what you're getting into.

SoftBoiledLife wrote:All the mentorship and BS from St. Johns won't matter to big firms. Unless you're top-2-3% in your class there, and the odds are overwhelming that you won't be, you won't be getting biglaw. Things aren't much better at UCD, but I know people who've swung it with top-15%, and that's a LOT better the alternative.

If you said you were interested in govt/PI work, I'd say take the money, but if that's not the case, you really don't want to pass up a T30 degree if you can help it.

Even though the mentors are partners at some of the biggest firms in town? I understand that they could just not come through, especially if my grades aren't good enough. However, if my grades are good, I feel positive that they'll see me into a good place.

Always Credited wrote:
Citing charts from pre-ITE and assuming that the downturn of hiring has been evenly proportioned across all schools is not a proper way of measuring prospects. Everything after the T-35ish range is simply a black hole.

I'm scared you're right, but not convinced this is exactly true.

drdolittle wrote:Going to NYC will alone be a gamble. You might like it, or not, but regardless you'll most likely be stuck out there for the foreseeable future. With a degree a fair ways down the NYC legal food-chain. At least
in NorCal you (should) have a better idea of what you're getting into.

I've visited three times, but never during winter. I'm a pretty indep. person, willing to take a risk, but I agree there are aspects of it that are a dice roll. I do thin St. Johns is the more financially prudent choice.




I'll be honest. I'm surprised that no one has yet stood up for "ITE, take the money/full ride." Does anyone here attend St Johns?

Davis - no question. Looking at your option I thought St. where?

For NY, Brooklyn would be a scary choice. St. Johns sounds terrifying. Go to UC Davis... For the San Fransisco market, UC Davis is a great school. For the NY market, St. Johns is horrible. UC Davis top 1/2 of your class = good job in San Fran, St. Johns top 1/2 of your class = contract work doc review.

Once you see your grades and realize you are looking at working a shit job far away from friends and family you'll join a huge club of depressed lawyers.

That being said, if you are unsure you want to practice the law, I would reccomend the full scholarship.

Total Litigator wrote:For NY, Brooklyn would be a scary choice. St. Johns sounds terrifying. Go to UC Davis... For the San Fransisco market, UC Davis is a great school. For the NY market, St. Johns is horrible. UC Davis top 1/2 of your class = good job in San Fran, St. Johns top 1/2 of your class = contract work doc review.

Once you see your grades and realize you are looking at working a shit job far away from friends and family you'll join a huge club of depressed lawyers.

That being said, if you are unsure you want to practice the law, I would reccomend the full scholarship.

God, I'm going to stay up all night making this choice. You all have made signficant head winds on changing my mind, and now I'm 50/50, perhaps leaning Davis. One of my problems is that St Johns has treated me so well throughout this whole process, and Davis has treated me like crap. I'm also just existentially scared of being bored with my life here. Maybe being bored on the path to a prairie is better than thrilled on an adventure on a trial to a giant cliff.