Top Law Schools

I know that this is a MAJOR topic of conversation here, but I am selfishly nervous about MY situation, so I thought about asking to get people's opinions on it. As it stands now, I am slated to start school in a month at a Top 25 school with a full ride, a deal I thought was great. However, the more I read, the more dire job prospects seem for lawyers outside the very very elite schools. My numbers (4.0, 172) are competitive, and between the last year I took off and next year (if I were to defer), I could boost my resume a bit at least - I know this won't make a huge difference - before applying to the T10.

I just thought I was getting a good deal to go to law school, but now I don't think so much. Especially because, unlike alot of people from what I've seen, I haven't opened a single E&E, hornbook, or anything else to get a jump on the experience, so I'm starting to think being at the very top of my class might be unlikely.

So my question is, am I throwing away too many opportunities coming OUT of law school by not aiming for the very top? What would you do in my situation? While deferring is certainly not ideal, I do feel as though there are two pluses I would have working in my favor: 1) It would allow me to get my applications in SUPER-early, and 2) It would give me a chance to feel better prepared for school next year.

Any advice? All opinions are appreciated!

What are you going to do with your degree? Would that allow you to make $2300 a month in student loan payments (plus UG debt if you have any)? Would a big name degree really help you in the long run? Those are questions only you can answer. I would not go to anything lower than T10 with a full ride, but I have my reasons. I advice others differently. If you don't know what you want to do, take the full ride because, well, it's nice to have options when you need them. I know what I want to do, and I am comfortable taking on debt (and paying it back regardless).

I would just take the offer if no grade/rank condition is attached to it.

tponmyshoe wrote:unlike alot of people from what I've seen, I haven't opened a single E&E, hornbook, or anything else to get a jump on the experience, so I'm starting to think being at the very top of my class might be unlikely.

i believe the general consensus on tls is that summer prep is only marginally helpful. i would not worry about that. go have fun this summer.

graduating with zero debt from a top 25 is great, and i think smarter than graduating with huge debt from a T10. that's not the tls prestige-whore answer, but i think if you are willing to work hard and get in the top of your class, then it's a great deal.

that being said, there's no guarantee that any amount of work will get you into the top 10%. but with a full ride.....i would say it's worth a try. and if you succeed, you can always consider transferring.


also please consult http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2 ... thing.html sorry i'm a grammar nazi

You've really sold yourself short. With a 172/4.0, you have a shot at YHS (likely S) and will almost certainly get in at one or more of CCN, and into T10 with money.

Ask yourself what you want to do. Being at the top of your class is highly unlikely, so don't assume you can do anything that involves that. If your goal is to work at a big firm, a T14 (+Vandy/Texas/UCLA) is if not a guarantee almost a prerequisite.

If your goal is to work in public interest, again, a top school will give you the most options, and debt is irrelevant because IBR will pay it off. That's the whole point of IBR --- to allow people interested in doing PI to go to top schools.

but i think if you are willing to work hard and get in the top of your class, then it's a great deal.

LOL. Do you think there is anyone at a T25 that isn't willing to work hard? Not only does it not guarantee that you'll get in the top of your class, I'm not even sure there is much of a correlation.

rayiner wrote:

but i think if you are willing to work hard and get in the top of your class, then it's a great deal.

LOL. Do you think there is anyone at a T25 that isn't willing to work hard? Not only does it not guarantee that you'll get in the top of your class, I'm not even sure there is much of a correlation.

i think there are a lot of people going in to t25s that sailed through UG and might not know how to work hard. i doubt all of these people are going to learn how by the first round of exams. but maybe i'm just being douchey.

Do people who are looking for big law know what it's like, or whether they can take it? The debt repayment is going to bind you there for a long time if you figure out if you don't like it.

I had to work 10 hours yesterday and I left after a half day today because that's too much work and I didn't want to do another full day. I don't know how many people really know what it's like to slave 2400 hours. Debt isn't so bad, working to death because of it is.

I went to a alumni reception in NYC and most there are under 30 and many said they won't be sticking around. Many of the older folks that showed no longer work in firms. I can tell many don't like working big law but they have no choice until loans get paid off. That's not cool ... imho.

jayn3 wrote:

rayiner wrote:

but i think if you are willing to work hard and get in the top of your class, then it's a great deal.

LOL. Do you think there is anyone at a T25 that isn't willing to work hard? Not only does it not guarantee that you'll get in the top of your class, I'm not even sure there is much of a correlation.

i think there are a lot of people going in to t25s that sailed through UG and might not know how to work hard. i doubt all of these people are going to learn how by the first round of exams. but maybe i'm just being douchey.

LOL no. 90% of the people in your class will people who might be a little slacker-y but have a knack for exams (dangerous when your only grades are 3 hour finals!) or 3.8+ types who can work 16 hours a day for 4 months.

First, ignore the advice you get on TLS (ironic, I know, because I'm giving you advice on TLS). You need to sit down and think about what YOU want to do. Not your parents, not your best friend, and definitely not your prestige whore law school bound classmate.

I had very similar numbers to yourself (171/4.0). I was accepted to most of the T10, and I'm sure you would be too if you apply; although I think the person that told you have a good shot at HYS was being a bit generous. I got some $$ from a few schools (Georgetown, Duke) and some $$$ from Penn. I really, really, really wanted to go to Penn. Or so I thought. I traveled out to Philly and loved the school. But then I started thinking about my goals in life, what I see myself doing after law school, etc. I talked to other lawyers in the community whom I respect very much. I spoke with current students, alumni, and faculty from the regional school I'm going to attend. At the same time, I was reading plenty of TLS posts that told me "OMG!!! T10 or killself!!!." My ego told me to go to Penn. Logic told me to take a full-ride at a regional school that would give me the same job opportunities I'm looking for. I received some timely advice from a renowned alum from the regional school and decided to forego Penn.

In my case, I started asking a few questions. First, what are the tangible advantages of paying more $ to attend a more prestigious school? Simple- Better job opportunities in the most competitive markets at the best firms. Then I asked, do I want to work in a huge market (e.g. LA, NYC, Chicago, etc.) for a huge firm doing 80 hrs/week? I couldn't see myself doing that for anymore than 2-3 years. I know I would get burned out living the rat race. In the end it came down to whether or not I needed the "experience" of an elite school. I figured the "experience" wasn't worth an extra $60K-$75K.

I wanted to tell you my story so that you know there are smart people that turn down the opportunity to attend a T14. Always remember that your situation is unique to YOU. Make a decision that will be best for YOU. Staying at your T25 with a full-ride sounds like a great opportunity and I would hesistate to second guess yourself. However, a T10 could be a great opportunity as well. Good luck.

sundevil77 wrote:First, ignore the advice you get on TLS (ironic, I know, because I'm giving you advice on TLS). You need to sit down and think about what YOU want to do. Not your parents, not your best friend, and definitely not your prestige whore law school bound classmate.

I had very similar numbers to yourself (171/4.0). I was accepted to most of the T10, and I'm sure you would be too if you apply; although I think the person that told you have a good shot at HYS was being a bit generous. I got some $$ from a few schools (Georgetown, Duke) and some $$$ from Penn. I really, really, really wanted to go to Penn. Or so I thought. I traveled out to Philly and loved the school. But then I started thinking about my goals in life, what I see myself doing after law school, etc. I talked to other lawyers in the community whom I respect very much. I spoke with current students, alumni, and faculty from the regional school I'm going to attend. At the same time, I was reading plenty of TLS posts that told me "OMG!!! T10 or killself!!!." My ego told me to go to Penn. Logic told me to take a full-ride at a regional school that would give me the same job opportunities I'm looking for. I received some timely advice from a renowned alum from the regional school and decided to forego Penn.

In my case, I started asking a few questions. First, what are the tangible advantages of paying more $ to attend a more prestigious school? Simple- Better job opportunities in the most competitive markets at the best firms. Then I asked, do I want to work in a huge market (e.g. LA, NYC, Chicago, etc.) for a huge firm doing 80 hrs/week? I couldn't see myself doing that for anymore than 2-3 years. I know I would get burned out living the rat race. In the end it came down to whether or not I needed the "experience" of an elite school. I figured the "experience" wasn't worth an extra $60K-$75K.

I wanted to tell you my story so that you know there are smart people that turn down the opportunity to attend a T14. Always remember that your situation is unique to YOU. Make a decision that will be best for YOU. Staying at your T25 with a full-ride sounds like a great opportunity and I would hesistate to second guess yourself. However, a T10 could be a great opportunity as well. Good luck.

I love everything about this post. I want to frame it and hang it over my bed at night. I will actually sleep better having read it.

sundevil77 wrote:First, ignore the advice you get on TLS (ironic, I know, because I'm giving you advice on TLS). You need to sit down and think about what YOU want to do. Not your parents, not your best friend, and definitely not your prestige whore law school bound classmate.

I had very similar numbers to yourself (171/4.0). I was accepted to most of the T10, and I'm sure you would be too if you apply; although I think the person that told you have a good shot at HYS was being a bit generous. I got some $$ from a few schools (Georgetown, Duke) and some $$$ from Penn. I really, really, really wanted to go to Penn. Or so I thought. I traveled out to Philly and loved the school. But then I started thinking about my goals in life, what I see myself doing after law school, etc. I talked to other lawyers in the community whom I respect very much. I spoke with current students, alumni, and faculty from the regional school I'm going to attend. At the same time, I was reading plenty of TLS posts that told me "OMG!!! T10 or killself!!!." My ego told me to go to Penn. Logic told me to take a full-ride at a regional school that would give me the same job opportunities I'm looking for. I received some timely advice from a renowned alum from the regional school and decided to forego Penn.

In my case, I started asking a few questions. First, what are the tangible advantages of paying more $ to attend a more prestigious school? Simple- Better job opportunities in the most competitive markets at the best firms. Then I asked, do I want to work in a huge market (e.g. LA, NYC, Chicago, etc.) for a huge firm doing 80 hrs/week? I couldn't see myself doing that for anymore than 2-3 years. I know I would get burned out living the rat race. In the end it came down to whether or not I needed the "experience" of an elite school. I figured the "experience" wasn't worth an extra $60K-$75K.

I wanted to tell you my story so that you know there are smart people that turn down the opportunity to attend a T14. Always remember that your situation is unique to YOU. Make a decision that will be best for YOU. Staying at your T25 with a full-ride sounds like a great opportunity and I would hesistate to second guess yourself. However, a T10 could be a great opportunity as well. Good luck.

SUNDEVIL FTW! Please submit just this as an entree for the TLS writing competition. +1000000000

Then I asked, do I want to work in a huge market (e.g. LA, NYC, Chicago, etc.) for a huge firm doing 80 hrs/week earning 160k? Or do I want to work in a huge market at a small firm doing 70 hrs/week earning $50k?

Edited in the interest of honesty.

There are lots of people at T25s who are getting *nothing*. Not just striking out of biglaw, but striking out of *everything*.

OP: You're underestimating

1) How much of a disaster the economy is.
2) How much of a difference in opportunity exists between a top-6 and a top-25.
3) How much opportunity cost exists to go to a LS, even for "free".

Re: 1, like I said, I know people at T14s with good grades who have *nothing*. There are well-known posters here going to T25s who can't get *anything*. 20% of Harvard struck out of OCI this year.

Re: 2, 70% of CLS and NYU still landed a big-firm job even in this economy. There are law-review people at T25s who can't land big firm jobs.

Re: 3, you'll still take on ~60k of debt for cost of living, and are giving up a salary of say $100k over 3 years (or more). So the real cost comparison isn't $200k versus 0, it's more like $300k versus $150k.

megaTTTron wrote: SUNDEVIL FTW! Please submit just this as an entree for the TLS writing competition. +1000000000

i'd like it with the 1996 burgundy, please.

rayiner wrote:

Then I asked, do I want to work in a huge market (e.g. LA, NYC, Chicago, etc.) for a huge firm doing 80 hrs/week earning 160k? Or do I want to work in a huge market at a small firm doing 70 hrs/week earning $50k?

Edited in the interest of honesty.

There are lots of people at T25s who are getting *nothing*. Not just striking out of biglaw, but striking out of *everything*.

OP: You're underestimating

1) How much of a disaster the economy is.
2) How much of a difference in opportunity exists between a top-6 and a top-25.
3) How much opportunity cost exists to go to a LS, even for "free".

Re: 1, like I said, I know people at T14s with good grades who have *nothing*. There are well-known posters here going to T25s who can't get *anything*. 20% of Harvard struck out of OCI this year.

Re: 2, 70% of CLS and NYU still landed a big-firm job even in this economy. There are law-review people at T25s who can't land big firm jobs.

Re: 3, you'll still take on ~60k of debt for cost of living, and are giving up a salary of say $100k over 3 years (or more). So the real cost comparison isn't $200k versus 0, it's more like $300k versus $150k.

fuck it, it may be akin to post-decision bolstering, but i'm still with rayiner.

rayiner wrote:

Then I asked, do I want to work in a huge market (e.g. LA, NYC, Chicago, etc.) for a huge firm doing 80 hrs/week earning 160k? Or do I want to work in a huge market at a small firm doing 70 hrs/week earning $50k?

Edited in the interest of honesty.

There are lots of people at T25s who are getting *nothing*. Not just striking out of biglaw, but striking out of *everything*.

OP: You're underestimating

1) How much of a disaster the economy is.
2) How much of a difference in opportunity exists between a top-6 and a top-25.
3) How much opportunity cost exists to go to a LS, even for "free".

Re: 1, like I said, I know people at T14s with good grades who have *nothing*. There are well-known posters here going to T25s who can't get *anything*. 20% of Harvard struck out of OCI this year.

Re: 2, 70% of CLS and NYU still landed a big-firm job even in this economy. There are law-review people at T25s who can't land big firm jobs.

Re: 3, you'll still take on ~60k of debt for cost of living, and are giving up a salary of say $100k over 3 years (or more). So the real cost comparison isn't $200k versus 0, it's more like $300k versus $150k.

While the opportunity cost of attending a top law school is proportionately smaller, the fact remains that your non-dischargeable student loan debt will be much, much lower with a full-ride at a regional school.

And, in the the further interest of honesty, jobs do exist at "big" firms in mid-size markets like St. Louis, Denver, Seattle, Phoenix, and many others. Those jobs start at over $100K/year. Sure they aren't plentiful, but the kids at T14s aren't typically looking to make a move to one of these smaller markets. People that perform well at regional schools and make connections in the community have a shot, not a guarantee, but a shot at landing one of these jobs. I've talked with recent grads that have done just that.

I think I've made a fairly educated decision on what I think is best for me. I was simply telling OP that reasonable, equally qualified applicants can come to different decisions for different reasons.

sundevil77 wrote:

rayiner wrote:

Then I asked, do I want to work in a huge market (e.g. LA, NYC, Chicago, etc.) for a huge firm doing 80 hrs/week earning 160k? Or do I want to work in a huge market at a small firm doing 70 hrs/week earning $50k?

Edited in the interest of honesty.

There are lots of people at T25s who are getting *nothing*. Not just striking out of biglaw, but striking out of *everything*.

OP: You're underestimating

1) How much of a disaster the economy is.
2) How much of a difference in opportunity exists between a top-6 and a top-25.
3) How much opportunity cost exists to go to a LS, even for "free".

Re: 1, like I said, I know people at T14s with good grades who have *nothing*. There are well-known posters here going to T25s who can't get *anything*. 20% of Harvard struck out of OCI this year.

Re: 2, 70% of CLS and NYU still landed a big-firm job even in this economy. There are law-review people at T25s who can't land big firm jobs.

Re: 3, you'll still take on ~60k of debt for cost of living, and are giving up a salary of say $100k over 3 years (or more). So the real cost comparison isn't $200k versus 0, it's more like $300k versus $150k.

While the opportunity cost of attending a top law school is proportionately smaller, the fact remains that your non-dischargeable student loan debt will be much, much lower with a full-ride at a regional school.

And, in the the further interest of honesty, jobs do exist at "big" firms in mid-size markets like St. Louis, Denver, Seattle, Phoenix, and many others. Those jobs start at over $100K/year. Sure they aren't plentiful, but the kids at T14s aren't typically looking to make a move to one of these smaller markets. People that perform well at regional schools and make connections in the community have a shot, not a guarantee, but a shot at landing one of these jobs. I've talked with recent grads that have done just that.

I think I've made a fairly educated decision on what I think is best for me. I was simply telling OP that reasonable, equally qualified applicants can come to different decisions for different reasons.

You forget the fact that those markets are quickly being flooded with T6 who haven't landed jobs. Its not like you've found the hidden pot of gold here. There are too many people making misinformed decisions about law schools which is creating even more problems on top of problems. I'm not saying whatever your decision was was wrong, but those jobs might as well require the same resume that it would to land biglaw

First of all, great post by sundevil. I'm actually his numbers twin (4.0/171) and am also looking at returning to a smaller market after school, but I went with a T14 with $$ after talking with many hiring partners and recruiting directors in my local market (Birmingham). I was trying to choose between a full ride at Alabama and very similar scholarships (a little over half tuition) to Vanderbilt and Duke. Obviously, the top local school here is Alabama, a decent tier 1 state school that has limited competition in the region. However, most advice I received (from a decent number of Alabama Law alums, no less) pointed towards going to Vanderbilt or Duke. Their opinion was that the added prestige would help me stand out a bit if I came back to Birmingham after school, both with law firms and government agencies. With that advice in hand I cut Alabama and then chose Duke over Vanderbilt.

However, I don't think it's a cut-and-dried issue on whether or not one should take T14 over Tier 1 local every time. In my case, the total cost to attend Duke won't exceed 80K in loans, since my spouse will work and provide for the majority of our living expenses. Also, I came out of undergrad with no student debt and managed to save some money while working this year. I'm still very nervous about the loans I'll have to take out at Duke, and I doubt I would have attended with a less favorable financial outlook.

Prost to sundevil for emphasizing a full consideration of one's personal goals when choosing a school, though. I'm very intersested in clerking for a federal judge, and then likely working for a private firm in a non-major market (Atlanta, Birmingham, Charlotte, Nashville, etc.), so I think the added prestige will help me achieve that end. I also wanted to spend three years somewhere new for law school, somewhere where my wife can advance her career (she's in healthcare, so Duke is a great fit in that regard), and somewhere where I could enjoy a familiar standard of living.

Anyway, I thought I'd throw my two cents in since sundevil and I were numbers twins with similar choices in the same cycle.

4.0/172 could get you T10 and $$$. Those are ballin' numbers.

You will have doors closed on you by choosing a lower-tier school. You will lose out on opportunities no matter how well you do, make LR, top 5%, whatever. No matter how hard you work and how well you do, some things will still simply be unavailable to you, and ITE that can be harmful to your chances of finding a job--any job--after graduation. If you're okay with this, go where you're in. If not, sit out and blanket the T14 this fall.

I agree with vanwinkle, but the real question to consider is whether those foreclosed opportunities are ones that would even interest you in the first place. If not, then I don't see the point in chasing the prestige.

No firm is ever going to say "Well, s/he only went to Harvard." Going to a top 10 certainly isn't going to close any doors on you, that's for sure.

Plus, the networking at a top 10 will pay dividends.

I would say yes, honestly. Once you get past the top 10, though, the value dwindles pretty quickly.

LOL. ITT: a righteous 0L discusses choosing a lower-ranked school based on a misunderstanding of the legal market; tons of other 0Ls who didn't have such a choice jump all over him/her to thank him/her.

tponmyshoe wrote:I know that this is a MAJOR topic of conversation here, but I am selfishly nervous about MY situation, so I thought about asking to get people's opinions on it. As it stands now, I am slated to start school in a month at a Top 25 school with a full ride, a deal I thought was great. However, the more I read, the more dire job prospects seem for lawyers outside the very very elite schools. My numbers (4.0, 172) are competitive, and between the last year I took off and next year (if I were to defer), I could boost my resume a bit at least - I know this won't make a huge difference - before applying to the T10.

I just thought I was getting a good deal to go to law school, but now I don't think so much. Especially because, unlike alot of people from what I've seen, I haven't opened a single E&E, hornbook, or anything else to get a jump on the experience, so I'm starting to think being at the very top of my class might be unlikely.

So my question is, am I throwing away too many opportunities coming OUT of law school by not aiming for the very top? What would you do in my situation? While deferring is certainly not ideal, I do feel as though there are two pluses I would have working in my favor: 1) It would allow me to get my applications in SUPER-early, and 2) It would give me a chance to feel better prepared for school next year.

Any advice? All opinions are appreciated!

Yes t10 (or if you must settle for a t14 like me) or dont go. t14-t35 means crap

AJRESQ wrote:Going to a top 10 certainly isn't going to close any doors on you, that's for sure.

It will if you're below median and $200 k in debt.

The consensus advice on TLS for those who want to live in a mid-size market is not: "Never go to a TTT law school". Rather, it is: "Never go to a TTT and take on significant debt." The debate between TTTs on full scholly and t14 with decent scholly (for those with exclusively local ambisions) will go on and on. But neither side is objectively bad, and it is hard to tell which degree will do better in the home market.

So, I just don't understand the love for sundevil's post (hopefully, I don't sound too mean here).

0L here, but I agree with Summus Romani and VanWinkle. OP is making a mistake not because full-ride at a top regional is always worse than a T-14 at sticker, but because with a 4.0/172 OP could get $$$ at a T-10, essentially having his cake (a shot at top jobs and a margin of error on grades) and eating it too (not taking out huge loans)

From what I hear students at a school in OP's range need to be in the top 20% or so to even be considered for Biglaw and other prestigious jobs. For T-10, it sounds like third is a strong consider, with people all the way down to median at least having a chance at generally desirable employment.

As OP I would want that extra margin of safety in academic performance, even if it meant giving up a full ride for half-tuition or so. Unless you have a really strong personal factor (SO at the "top-regional" or sick family), I think you should reapply OP.