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3.57/152 Sept 09 and 159 June 10 LSAT. Not considering retaking, given the amount of time and effort already put in for the considerable score increase. I am a Wisconsin resident who wants to practice in Midwest and am half-Persian. I graduated Spring 2010 in Poli Sci at UW-Madison and secured a finance assistant position at an independent expenditure political organization in the state. Getting ready to apply for the latest cycle.

Does it make sense to even bother applying to schools like Washington U, Notre Dame, Illinois, Bloomington given:
1) my numbers (I know they're all long shots, but law school predictor gives me "weak consider" to "consider")
2) Iowa or Wisconsin seem to offer comparable career prospects for the region
3) in-state tuition at Wisconsin

Thanks for any help!

Your odds of getting into any of those schools are slim without a higher LSAT score, and you'd pay sticker at them if you got in. None of those schools are worth it at sticker.

Amir N wrote:3.57/152 Sept 09 and 159 June 10 LSAT. Not considering retaking, given the amount of time and effort already put in for the considerable score increase. I am a Wisconsin resident who wants to practice in Midwest and am half-Persian. I graduated Spring 2010 in Poli Sci at UW-Madison and secured a finance assistant position at an independent expenditure political organization in the state. Getting ready to apply for the latest cycle.

Does it make sense to even bother applying to schools like Washington U, Notre Dame, Illinois, Bloomington given:
1) my numbers (I know they're all long shots, but law school predictor gives me "weak consider" to "consider")
2) Iowa or Wisconsin seem to offer comparable career prospects for the region
3) in-state tuition at Wisconsin

Thanks for any help!

I think you might as well apply. My numbers dictated where I got in, I know, but my softs dictated the money I got (I was "over-payed" based on numbers at a number of schools). I know Dean Pless at Illinois said that he's more likely to let in the PERSON he really wants in the class, with sub-par numbers, early in the cycle when he still has time to offset their numbers. I suspect other adcomms feel similarly.

Additionally, almost all of the schools I got into (with high scholarships) were "weak consider" to "consider" on LSP.

Sure, you might get rejections, but you might get lucky, too. It's worth the application fees, in my opinion, just so you can know.

I like WI more than Iowa, but I am a WI resident, too. I will say that I found their admissions office more helpful, friendlier, and faster than that of Iowa.

In sum, apply everywhere you think you'd be happy. Give yourself every chance to succeed at the application game (strong LORs, good PS, diversity statement if you can manage one that's not too trite, etc)...and see where the chips fall.

Good luck!

Thanks for the help. However, would it be worth it to go to, say, Notre Dame or Washington U if I did manage to get in (given it would be at sticker)? I guess I'm wondering if the slight edge in rankings and "elite" status really would give better career prospects for the Midwest over Iowa or Wisconsin.

Amir N wrote:Thanks for the help. However, would it be worth it to go to, say, Notre Dame or Washington U if I did manage to get in (given it would be at sticker)? I guess I'm wondering if the slight edge in rankings and "elite" status really would give better career prospects for the Midwest over Iowa or Wisconsin.

I'm going to be honest with you. There is no way you're getting into ND (and most likely any of the others with your numbers). You need to retake. 5 more points would make a HUGE difference. I was WLed last year at ND with a 159/ 3.8, and I applied ED.

yeah, WUSTL and Notre Dame are most likely (almost certainly) not happening. Wisconsin might happen though, given that 25% had a 156 or less on the lsat. If I were you I'd really target Wisconsin. Or retake, and perhaps completely alter your position.

I know Notre Dame and WashU are long shots at best. I'm really just curious how much of an advantage those schools offer in the Midwest compared to the lower ranked schools like WI and Iowa, given their only marginal lead in rankings.

You need to honestly assess where you stand. Your GPA isn't bad and isn't spectacular relative to any of these schools so it really comes down to your LSAT for evaluating you. You're not a splitter.

You're much too low to go to Notre Dame or Wash U. Wisconsin is your best bet of the remaining because it's cheaper and all the Big 10 schools are similar quality. Illinois has slightly better job prospects but that would in no way be worth the extra money to attend it instead of in-state Wisconsin. Illinois is also, by far, the most aggressive of any of the Big 10 schools in trying to raise their numbers. They even admitted to this. You don't help them in this regard.

What you really need to be able to choose which Big 10 you can go to (as opposed to praying that one of them will admit you) is a few more points on the LSAT. Wisconsin's medians were 162/3.6 for the 2009 entering class and you really, really should go there for cost reasons relative to anywhere else you're going to get in. Turning down crazy low in-state tuition to gamble for an arguable few % wiggle room in class rank is dumb.

Since you asked, no, Notre Dame/Wash U. are not worth $100,000+ more than Wisconsin.

you can very well get into Iowa. focus on you softs/international aspect/other differences. they seem to appreciate diversity. get in-state tuition 2L, 3L years by RAing for professor (lowers from 41K to 22K).

Going to Iowa next year. PM me if you want more info.

PS - the earlier you apply, the better your chances anywhere...as im sure you know. Many candidates with scores higher than mine were left behind, incl at Iowa, because they applied late.

ScaredWorkedBored wrote: Since you asked, no, Notre Dame/Wash U. are not worth $100,000+ more than Wisconsin.

This depends on where in the midwest, Notre dame is far more likely to get you a job in indiana or ohio then wisconsin is.

Patriot1208 wrote:

ScaredWorkedBored wrote: Since you asked, no, Notre Dame/Wash U. are not worth $100,000+ more than Wisconsin.

This depends on where in the midwest, Notre dame is far more likely to get you a job in indiana or ohio then wisconsin is.

Still not worth $150k+

If you apply ED at Iowa/Wisc (not sure if they have that) or as soon as the application becomes available, I'd say you have a really good shot. Make sure your personal statement is impeccable and that your story is memorable enough (play on being bi-cultural). Also, you might want to consider some sort of internship now in the legal field or something interesting to help you out this coming application cycle.

I'm going to Iowa this year and I met with Dean Byrd... he seems to favor undergraduate education and "your story" or any obstacles you've overcome. THey really admire and are committed to diversity...all types.

rad law wrote:

Patriot1208 wrote:

ScaredWorkedBored wrote: Since you asked, no, Notre Dame/Wash U. are not worth $100,000+ more than Wisconsin.

This depends on where in the midwest, Notre dame is far more likely to get you a job in indiana or ohio then wisconsin is.

Still not worth $150k+

Extremely expensive way to go job hunting in Indiana and Ohio.

ScaredWorkedBored wrote:

rad law wrote:

Patriot1208 wrote:

ScaredWorkedBored wrote: Since you asked, no, Notre Dame/Wash U. are not worth $100,000+ more than Wisconsin.

This depends on where in the midwest, Notre dame is far more likely to get you a job in indiana or ohio then wisconsin is.

Still not worth $150k+

Extremely expensive way to go job hunting in Indiana and Ohio.

I wasn't advocating taking an extra 100+ thousand in debt for that reason

megaTTTron wrote:

Amir N wrote:Thanks for the help. However, would it be worth it to go to, say, Notre Dame or Washington U if I did manage to get in (given it would be at sticker)? I guess I'm wondering if the slight edge in rankings and "elite" status really would give better career prospects for the Midwest over Iowa or Wisconsin.

I'm going to be honest with you. There is no way you're getting into ND (and most likely any of the others with your numbers). You need to retake. 5 more points would make a HUGE difference. I was WLed last year at ND with a 159/ 3.8, and I applied ED.

Did you ever make it off the waitlist?

Consider these schools' medians:
WUSTL: 3.70/167
Illinois: 3.80/166
ND: 3.60/166
IUB: 3.70/164
Wisconsin: 3.60/162
Iowa: 3.61/161

Since you're below both medians, you basically have zero chance at any of these schools with a 3.57/159 unless you retake and get 3-5 points higher.

angiej wrote:

megaTTTron wrote:

Amir N wrote:Thanks for the help. However, would it be worth it to go to, say, Notre Dame or Washington U if I did manage to get in (given it would be at sticker)? I guess I'm wondering if the slight edge in rankings and "elite" status really would give better career prospects for the Midwest over Iowa or Wisconsin.

I'm going to be honest with you. There is no way you're getting into ND (and most likely any of the others with your numbers). You need to retake. 5 more points would make a HUGE difference. I was WLed last year at ND with a 159/ 3.8, and I applied ED.

Did you ever make it off the waitlist?

I got an offer from another school I was WL'd at, and withdrew. It was unlikely though, and this all went down the first week of August.

ScaredWorkedBored wrote: Since you asked, no, Notre Dame/Wash U. are not worth $100,000+ more than Wisconsin.

I don't know about Wash U, but isn't OCI at Notre Dame ~40 employers? (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=123174)

I'm going through OCI here at Wisconsin and we've got ~60 employers (not including multiple offices) as well as a decent amount of firms collecting resumes. I also know that we've got about another 20 employers you can get in touch with through regional job fairs.


Notre Dame is a sinking ship. Don't even bother applying unless you're super keen on the Catholic JD vibe.

e: P.S. you'd better have stellar soft factors or be eligible for some sort of affirmative action to try to get into Wisconsin with those numbers.

I think I read 60+ at WUSTL round 1, but I'm not sure.

I wouldn't say that WUSTL and Notre Dame are complete impossibilities.

I managed to get into WUSTL (by a complete act of God or whatever higher power you believe in) with a 3.9/151 and managed to get a half-ride scholarship. My friend got into Notre Dame with a 3.7/155 with a similar scholarship. Sure, you'll be essentially betting the odds with those LSAT numbers but it's not quite outside the realm of possibility (although, you better make sure you have a phenomenal personal statement to hopefully get the ball rolling in your favor). On the other end, don't completely bank on these chances as well; start looking for some good Midwest alternatives, whether they be T2 or T3s that have considerable regional notoriety in the location you're interested/might be stuck in.

Melkaba wrote:I wouldn't say that WUSTL and Notre Dame are complete impossibilities.

I managed to get into WUSTL (by a complete act of God or whatever higher power you believe in) with a 3.9/151 and managed to get a half-ride scholarship. My friend got into Notre Dame with a 3.7/155 with a similar scholarship. Sure, you'll be essentially betting the odds with those LSAT numbers but it's not quite outside the realm of possibility (although, you better make sure you have a phenomenal personal statement to hopefully get the ball rolling in your favor). On the other end, don't completely bank on these chances as well; start looking for some good Midwest alternatives, whether they be T2 or T3s that have considerable regional notoriety in the location you're interested/might be stuck in.

URM?

(And are you attending WUSTL?)

romothesavior wrote: URM?

(And are you attending WUSTL?)

While it'll probably open an entirely new can of worms, yeah, we both were (although, I did know a few other URM applications with better numbers that got turned down for reasons I can't even begin to fathom). And yeah, I am attending WUSTL. But hey, that could also be advantageous for the TC with the "half-Persian" bit of info.

Melkaba wrote:

romothesavior wrote: URM?

(And are you attending WUSTL?)

While it'll probably open an entirely new can of worms, yeah, we both were (although, I did know a few other URM applications with better numbers that got turned down for reasons I can't even begin to fathom). And yeah, I am attending WUSTL. But hey, that could also be advantageous for the TC with the "half-Persian" bit of info.

No can of worms will be opened here. But I'll just say that comparing URMs to non-URMs is really comparing apples to oranges. Plus you were at least above one median, whereas he is below both. I'd bet a year's worth of tuition that he wouldn't get in with a 3.57 and a 159. OP, you should retake if you think you can do better.

And I'll see you in the fall Melkaba! Come say hello in the WUSTL Class of 2013 thread.

romothesavior wrote:

Melkaba wrote:

romothesavior wrote: URM?

(And are you attending WUSTL?)

While it'll probably open an entirely new can of worms, yeah, we both were (although, I did know a few other URM applications with better numbers that got turned down for reasons I can't even begin to fathom). And yeah, I am attending WUSTL. But hey, that could also be advantageous for the TC with the "half-Persian" bit of info.

No can of worms will be opened here. But I'll just say that comparing URMs to non-URMs is really comparing apples to oranges. Plus you were at least above one median, whereas he is below both. I'd bet a year's worth of tuition that he wouldn't get in with a 3.57 and a 159. OP, you should retake if you think you can do better.

And I'll see you in the fall Melkaba! Come say hello in the WUSTL Class of 2013 thread.

Is it common for URMS to be judged less by both LSAT and GPA than to be admitted based on either LSAT or GPA being above the median? I suppose there is no cut and dry rhyme or reason.