Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich Forum
- thexfactor
- Posts: 1291
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Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
Hey guys, I realize that there is a difference between all 4 schools. Which difference is greater?
Washu-Ucla
UCLA-GT
GT-Mich
Thanks
Washu-Ucla
UCLA-GT
GT-Mich
Thanks
- World B. Free
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:34 am
Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
I'd say GT - Mich is greatest diff... I personally think Mich is a much better school.
- World B. Free
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- Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:34 am
Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
Mich >>>>>G = UCLA >>>WushUNightrunner wrote:thexfactor wrote:Hey guys, I realize that there is a difference between all 4 schools. Which difference is greater?
Washu-Ucla
UCLA-GT
GT-Mich
ThanksMich >>>>>G'Town>UCLA>>>WashU
imho
(minor, insignificant edit)
- thexfactor
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
hmm interesting. Why do you guys all think there is a bigger diff between Mich-GT than UCLA-Washu
-
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
what year is that data from?Nightrunner wrote:...seriously?thexfactor wrote:hmm interesting. Why do you guys all think there is a bigger diff between Mich-GT than UCLA-Washu
Michigan is an elite law school. Its placement statistics in academia, the NLJ 250, and Article III clerkships are astonishing.
OK, I made this once upon a time. It has a few flaws to it (for example, I'm using all most recent data, which means that NLJ is from one year, and clerkships are from another), so don't trust the hardcore number, but the general flow is close. This isn't necessarily as "public info," folks, just to help answer the question - don't give me too much shit about my methodology.
The schools in question are in bold.
In my opinion, these estimates (and take them as such) highlight the general consensus: that certain schools (specifically the top 7 above) simply have much stronger placement power than their competitors dream about. If WUSTL doubled the percentage of their students who land these sorts of jobs, they would still be below Michigan.The following list is a ranking of top schools by percentage of graduates who land the best jobs. I'm classifying best jobs as: NLJ 250 Firm jobs, Article III Judicial Clerkships, and Tenure-Track Academic Fellowships.
TIER 1 – HYPER-ELITE LAW SCHOOLS (AROUND 4/5)
1. Yale - 82.1%
2. Stanford - 80.1%
TIER 2 – ELITE LAW SCHOOLS (AROUND 2/3)
3. Harvard - 70.7%
4. Chicago - 67.7%
5. Virginia - 67.5%
6. Columbia - 66.5%
7. Michigan - 66.3%
TIER 3 – EXCELLENT LAW SCHOOLS (BETWEEN 2/3 AND 3/5)
8. Northwestern - 63.2%
9. Penn - 63%
10. Duke - 62.7%
11. Berkeley - 60.1%
TIER 4 – VERY GOOD LAW SCHOOLS (WITHIN 10% OF 1/2)
12. NYU - 57.4%
13. Vanderbilt - 55.5%
14. Cornell - 52.4%
15. Georgetown - 48.4%
16. Texas - 48.2%
17. USC - 47.2%
18. UCLA - 43.2%
TIER 5 – GOOD LAW SCHOOLS (WITHIN 5% OF 1/3)
19. Boston College - 38.0%
20. Notre Dame - 37.8%
21. GW 36.5%
22. Fordham 35.3%
23. Washington University – St. Louis 32.5%
24. Illinois 32.3%
25. Boston University 30.8%
TIER 6 – WELL ABOVE-AVERAGE LAW SCHOOLS (AROUND 1/4)
26. Emory 28.8%
27. Washington & Lee 26.6%
28. William & Mary 26%
29. Wake Forest 25.7%
30. Wisconsin 25.3%
31. SMU 25%
31. Iowa 25%
33. Washington 24.7%
34. Ohio State 24.3%
35. Minnesota 24.1%
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-
- Posts: 1486
- Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:55 pm
Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
Oh. Yah. I think if that got widespread TLS release, you'd have a shitton of CCN trolls breathing down your necks. To be fair, I suspect the gap between CCN and other T10s has been magnified ITE.Nightrunner wrote:Like I noted, it is from different years (thus the problem, and the lack of public TLS release). My methodology was flawed.
2009 NLJ 250 data
2008 Article III Clerkships (including the possibility of double-count)
Leiter's info on professors, divided (I know: shotty, shotty shit).
It was really only for my own purposes, which is why I didn't mind the numbers' margin of error being so large: the bottom line is that the list lined up pretty decently with how I intuitively supposed the placement power of the schools to be. I'm only bringing it up here to illustrate the intuitive difference between the schools OP mentioned, in something vaguely resembling a linear fashion.
- nealric
- Posts: 4279
- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:53 am
Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
More anti-GULC trolling from TLSMich >>>>>G = UCLA >>>WushU
(minor, insignificant edit)
It's more like Mich >>G>>>UCLA>>>>>>>>>>WUSTL
- Sauer Grapes
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
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Last edited by Sauer Grapes on Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
- romothesavior
- Posts: 14692
- Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm
Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
Nightrunner wrote:Mich >>>>>G'Town>UCLA>>>WashUthexfactor wrote:Hey guys, I realize that there is a difference between all 4 schools. Which difference is greater?
Washu-Ucla
UCLA-GT
GT-Mich
Thanks
imho
Credited. Michigan is far and away the best school on this list. And UCLA is quite a bit better than WUSTL, but both are primarily regional. UCLA gives students a much better shot at biglaw, however.
- World B. Free
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:34 am
Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
NO. no trolling --- personally I'd rather go to GULC over UCLA, but apart from that I don't think there is a ton of difference bet the two.nealric wrote:More anti-GULC trolling from TLSMich >>>>>G = UCLA >>>WushU
(minor, insignificant edit)
It's more like Mich >>G>>>UCLA>>>>>>>>>>WUSTL
- JCougar
- Posts: 3216
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm
Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
Awesome list, NR.
This just confirms my hypothesis that NYU is overrated.
This also confirms the presence of the T18. The gap between US News rankings of 18 and 19 is far greater than the gap between 14 and 15 if you're looking at employment outcomes. T18 doesn't get enough credit -- the same 4 schools have been rated 15-18 for the last decade, yet you still hear about T14 and T20, etc. The real cutoff between good employment prospects and simply better than average employment prospects is the 18th rank.
This just confirms my hypothesis that NYU is overrated.
This also confirms the presence of the T18. The gap between US News rankings of 18 and 19 is far greater than the gap between 14 and 15 if you're looking at employment outcomes. T18 doesn't get enough credit -- the same 4 schools have been rated 15-18 for the last decade, yet you still hear about T14 and T20, etc. The real cutoff between good employment prospects and simply better than average employment prospects is the 18th rank.
- Sauer Grapes
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
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Last edited by Sauer Grapes on Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
- romothesavior
- Posts: 14692
- Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm
Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
This list confirms that if Michigan admits me off the waitlist, I'll be going.JCougar wrote:Awesome list, NR.
This just confirms my hypothesis that NYU is overrated.
This also confirms the presence of the T18. The gap between US News rankings of 18 and 19 is far greater than the gap between 14 and 15 if you're looking at employment outcomes. T18 doesn't get enough credit -- the same 4 schools have been rated 15-18 for the last decade, yet you still hear about T14 and T20, etc. The real cutoff between good employment prospects and simply better than average employment prospects is the 18th rank.
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- JCougar
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
Yes, I am. I'm happy about it, because it's probably the best I could have hoped for. Would have loved to have had 3 extra points on the LSAT to have a shot at Northwestern, but WUSTL was probably as good as I was going to do.Sauer Grapes wrote:Wait... aren't you going to #19?JCougar wrote:Awesome list, NR.
This just confirms my hypothesis that NYU is overrated.
This also confirms the presence of the T18. The gap between US News rankings of 18 and 19 is far greater than the gap between 14 and 15 if you're looking at employment outcomes. T18 doesn't get enough credit -- the same 4 schools have been rated 15-18 for the last decade, yet you still hear about T14 and T20, etc. The real cutoff between good employment prospects and simply better than average employment prospects is the 18th rank.
- najumobi
- Posts: 1054
- Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:36 pm
Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
he's looking at it objectivelySauer Grapes wrote:Wait... aren't you going to #19?JCougar wrote:Awesome list, NR.
This just confirms my hypothesis that NYU is overrated.
This also confirms the presence of the T18. The gap between US News rankings of 18 and 19 is far greater than the gap between 14 and 15 if you're looking at employment outcomes. T18 doesn't get enough credit -- the same 4 schools have been rated 15-18 for the last decade, yet you still hear about T14 and T20, etc. The real cutoff between good employment prospects and simply better than average employment prospects is the 18th rank.
- voice of reason
- Posts: 264
- Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:18 am
Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
Nightrunner, I support your approach. Placement success in the most competitive jobs is clearly one of the best ways to compare law schools, especially top law schools. But one quibble with the terminology is that there is no such thing as a "Tenure-Track Academic Fellowship." I think you mean tenure-track faculty jobs, and you can just call them that. Fellowships are something else.
- JCougar
- Posts: 3216
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm
Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
Yes.voice of reason wrote:Placement success in the most competitive jobs is clearly one of the best ways to compare law schools, especially top law schools.
People should pay less attention to a school's reported salary statistics (almost always bullshit) and US News rank, and more attention to placement statistics, which include academia and high-profile clerkships. US News rank, in general, coincides pretty well with employment outcomes, but there's some notable exceptions (e.g. Indiana has no business in the T30, NYU shouldn't be a T5, Vanderbilt is as T14 as C or G, etc.). It's way harder to fudge employment outcomes than it is to report bogus salary medians or game the US News rankings.
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- Sauer Grapes
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
....
Last edited by Sauer Grapes on Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
- JCougar
- Posts: 3216
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich
Just trying to prepare myself for reality.Sauer Grapes wrote:Don't worry, I'm not hating. I would have been VERY happy at WUSTL. It's just rare to see someone on here objectively rag on their school.JCougar wrote:Yes, I am. I'm happy about it, because it's probably the best I could have hoped for. Would have loved to have had 3 extra points on the LSAT to have a shot at Northwestern, but WUSTL was probably as good as I was going to do.Sauer Grapes wrote:Wait... aren't you going to #19?JCougar wrote:Awesome list, NR.
This just confirms my hypothesis that NYU is overrated.
This also confirms the presence of the T18. The gap between US News rankings of 18 and 19 is far greater than the gap between 14 and 15 if you're looking at employment outcomes. T18 doesn't get enough credit -- the same 4 schools have been rated 15-18 for the last decade, yet you still hear about T14 and T20, etc. The real cutoff between good employment prospects and simply better than average employment prospects is the 18th rank.
I wouldn't call it ragging, though, it's still an incredible school. It's just not up in the elite range yet when it comes to placement. I think it will continue to improve, though.
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