Top Law Schools

Hi. I'm planning on which schools to apply to and although I plan on living in CA, I am open to going to an out of state school then returning to CA. Would it be better to land an out of state T14 like Cornell or go to a school like UCLA or USC if I wanted to work in biglaw in CA? Within the T14 would it be better to go to a school like U Penn over Cornell even though I want to live in CA? Thanks.

shurelion wrote:Would it be better to land an out of state T14 like Cornell or go to a school like UCLA or USC if I wanted to work in biglaw in CA?

Unless you have a large scholarship from UCLA, a lower T14 like Cornell is usually a better choice.

shurelion wrote:Within the T14 would it be better to go to a school like U Penn over Cornell even though I want to live in CA?

Yes, Penn over Cornell, Michigan over Georgetown, etc.

If it was me I would go to UCLA over Cornell. There's just not a big enough rankings difference and you have home court advantage.

It's not like there are many firms (if any) in LA that will hire you out of UCLA but not Cornell, it's just that most people from Cornell end up in NYC or DC, whereas the bulk of OCI employers at UCLA are going to be CA-based firms. If you're 100% dead-set on working in BroCal, I'd go to UCLA just because it will make finding a job in your preferred locale a lot more convenient.

*Clarification: UCLA over Cornell, Penn over either of them.

It seems like a pretty tough choice and I would say it comes down to money and which school one would be happier at when comparing the lower T14 to UCLA/USC for CA (i.e. if Ithica would make you miserable, or you hate DC/Chicago/etc, then that would make UCLA/USC stronger because of the chance that being in a place you hate could hurt your grades).

bk187 wrote:It seems like a pretty tough choice and I would say it comes down to money and which school one would be happier at when comparing the lower T14 to UCLA/USC for CA (i.e. if Ithica would make you miserable, or you hate DC/Chicago/etc, then that would make UCLA/USC stronger because of the chance that being in a place you hate could hurt your grades).

Also living in Westwood >>>>> living in Ithaca.

Similarly living in Beirut >>>>> living in Philly

The advice in this thread is pretty poor.

Outside of the larger LA law firms, Cornell will not have socal firms represented at OCI. Further, UCLA's alumni network will obviously greatly exceed Cornell's in the southern california region. And given the choice between a UCLA and Cornell student, employers will probably choose the UCLA one given firm ties to the law school and alumni at the firm.

Not to mention, firms will likely be skeptical of a Cornell grad coming to southern california, thinking that he/she just lost out on NY and is settling for CA. I might even choose UCLA over Penn, but that is a closer question than Cornell.

rando wrote:The advice in this thread is pretty poor.

Outside of the larger LA law firms, Cornell will not have socal firms represented at OCI. Further, UCLA's alumni network will obviously greatly exceed Cornell's in the southern california region. And given the choice between a UCLA and Cornell student, employers will probably choose the UCLA one given firm ties to the law school and alumni at the firm.

Not to mention, firms will likely be skeptical of a Cornell grad coming to southern california, thinking that he/she just lost out on NY and is settling for CA. I might even choose UCLA over Penn, but that is a closer question than Cornell.

i dont think they'd necessarily be skeptical/assume he or she was "settling" for CA--that would seem a tad bit presumptuous. however, i agree with your general advice about the impact of alumni networks--Cornell is not going to hold a candle to UCLA in cali in terms of alums, and the difference in rep isn't nearly enough to shock and awe your way to employment (minus law review top 10%). i'd also entertain the UCLA over Penn idea if you had scholarship involved and some potential contacts lined up beforehand. That being said, its tough to turn down Penn on anything short of Stanford/Berkeley for the cali market

For practice in California I would conjecture perhaps the following ranking:

1. Yale
2. Stanford
3. Harvard
4. Berkeley
5. UCLA
6. rest of T14
7. USC
8. Hastings/Davis/Irvine
9. Pepperdine/Loyola/USD
10. Santa Clara / Chapman
11. the rest of the CA schools

One questionable aspect of this ranking is the placement of UCLA above most of the T14, including CCN. However, UCLA does nearly as well as Berkeley in California, has a large alumni network, and is very well regarded here, so I speculate the home field advantage trumps the better national placement of most T14s.

I recall having seen a large table that showed the number of T14 or T20 graduates placed at top firms in various markets across the country. That would be helpful for this question but I can't find the link right now.

Quick interjection: Chicago CA connection is strong. I am practically swimming in Californians here and they all have jobs back home lined up.

I feel like at Chicago there is no presumption that you would stay in Chicago as there might be a NY presumption at NYU and Columbia.

voice of reason wrote: One questionable aspect of this ranking is the placement of UCLA above most of the T14, including CCN. However, UCLA does nearly as well as Berkeley in California, has a large alumni network, and is very well regarded here, so I speculate the home field advantage trumps the better national placement of most T14s

Huh?

CCNMVP and probably Duke and Northwestern are all going to do better (i.e. afford you the ability to be lower class rank) in California than UCLA.

voice of reason wrote: 5. UCLA
6. rest of T14
7. USC

I really don't think there's that much of a disparity between USC and UCLA...they're pretty equal in SoCal.

edited / never mind

RVP11 wrote:

voice of reason wrote: One questionable aspect of this ranking is the placement of UCLA above most of the T14, including CCN. However, UCLA does nearly as well as Berkeley in California, has a large alumni network, and is very well regarded here, so I speculate the home field advantage trumps the better national placement of most T14s

Huh?

CCNMVP and probably Duke and Northwestern are all going to do better (i.e. afford you the ability to be lower class rank) in California than UCLA.

While this is true for firms that recruit from all of the above schools, this assumes, incorrectly, that all your relevant firm options are represented equally across the above mentioned schools. While UCLA/USC will have access to all relevant Socal firms at OCI, T14's outside CA will not. And UCLA/USC will both be better vs. pretty much any T14 when said student has to resume spam the recruiting dept. of a firm not recruiting at said T14.

voice of reason wrote:For practice in California I would conjecture perhaps the following ranking:

1. Yale
2. Stanford
3. Harvard
4. Berkeley
5. UCLA
6. rest of T14
7. USC
8. Hastings/Davis/Irvine
9. Pepperdine/Loyola/USD
10. Santa Clara / Chapman
11. the rest of the CA schools

One questionable aspect of this ranking is the placement of UCLA above most of the T14, including CCN. However, UCLA does nearly as well as Berkeley in California, has a large alumni network, and is very well regarded here, so I speculate the home field advantage trumps the better national placement of most T14s.

I recall having seen a large table that showed the number of T14 or T20 graduates placed at top firms in various markets across the country. That would be helpful for this question but I can't find the link right now.

http://californiabar.globl.org/report.p ... 0&g=2&pp=5

JonathanA157 wrote:

voice of reason wrote:For practice in California I would conjecture perhaps the following ranking:

1. Yale
2. Stanford
3. Harvard
4. Berkeley
5. UCLA
6. rest of T14
7. USC
8. Hastings/Davis/Irvine
9. Pepperdine/Loyola/USD
10. Santa Clara / Chapman
11. the rest of the CA schools

One questionable aspect of this ranking is the placement of UCLA above most of the T14, including CCN. However, UCLA does nearly as well as Berkeley in California, has a large alumni network, and is very well regarded here, so I speculate the home field advantage trumps the better national placement of most T14s.

I recall having seen a large table that showed the number of T14 or T20 graduates placed at top firms in various markets across the country. That would be helpful for this question but I can't find the link right now.

[strike]http://californiabar.globl.org/report.p ... 0&g=2&pp=5[/strike]

While I have disagreements with Voice of Reason's ranking, the site you linked to is just dealing with representation. This discussion is really about which school would allow you to be lowest in the class and still secure the same job. As an individual, it's really not all that important how much of a market is made up of graduates from your school. What is important is which school will give you the most room for error, while still offering the job you want. Plus, as that site is talking about the bar, it really doesn't deal with what's going on in this discussion. Takers of the bar =/= placement at the sorts of top firms that one would be considering coming out of T18 or whatever. There is nowhere where Loyola LA>Columbia. That link is just a measure of how schools flood a market; nothing to do with actual standing.

The problem here is that there is no simple answer to this question. It is not relevant how many alums of the schools are at the various firms. They may want to stay with their own, they may want some diversity. Likewise, the point is interesting about how many CA firms do OCI at Cornell/Penn (or wherever), is is more relevant what is the ratio of CA firms to people wanting to work at CA firms at those schools relative to the same ratio at UCLA.

I think T14 vs. UCLA in OP's case can go either way. I can see the rational for picking UCLA (or even USC) if you are from SoCal and know you want to live/work in SoCal and would be okay missing out on BigLaw (though both USC and UCLA have strong numbers for schools outside of T14). However, if you just want BigLaw, then one of the other T14's is probably worth it since you might not get CA, but you still have a better chance of getting a big firm job.

However, OP, since you are still looking at where to apply for next cycle, there is no reason you shouldn't apply to UCLA (and USC) and the T14 schools you are interested in and your numbers give you a shot at and then see what happens with visits, $$, etc.

Wow. Thanks for all the replies. Would it make a difference if I mean bay area when I said California? I didn't think people would immediately assume I wanted to live in SoCal. Sorry about that. Anyway Keg411, I'm probably going to do just that. Once again, thank you everyone for all the input.

UCLA. The opportunity to network far outweighs the opportunity to earn a quasi-prestigious degree at a school thousands of miles across the country.

SoftBoiledLife wrote:Similarly living in Beirut >>>>> living in Philly

love it

voice of reason wrote:For practice in California I would conjecture perhaps the following ranking:

1. Yale
2. Stanford
3. Harvard
4. Berkeley
5. UCLA
6. rest of T14
7. USC
8. Hastings/Davis/Irvine
9. Pepperdine/Loyola/USD
10. Santa Clara / Chapman
11. the rest of the CA schools

Incredibly simplistic rankings are incredibly simplistic.

You can't just lump LA, SD, SF and Silicon Valley all together into one market. For example, USC does not put a lot of grads into SF, so it's hard to test just how strong they are statewide.

The rankings are especially not helpful with regard to #9 versus #10. Why would a San Jose employer rank Loyola over SCU? SCU is local and feeds into the Bay Area.

Also, Chapman is overranked. It's too new of a school to say that it would outplace UoP in Sacramento or Southwestern in LA.

romothesavior wrote:UCLA. The opportunity to network far outweighs the opportunity to earn a quasi-prestigious degree at a school thousands of miles across the country.

TITCR

NayBoer wrote:

voice of reason wrote:For practice in California I would conjecture perhaps the following ranking:

1. Yale
2. Stanford
3. Harvard
4. Berkeley
5. UCLA
6. rest of T14
7. USC
8. Hastings/Davis/Irvine
9. Pepperdine/Loyola/USD
10. Santa Clara / Chapman
11. the rest of the CA schools

Incredibly simplistic rankings are incredibly simplistic.

You can't just lump LA, SD, SF and Silicon Valley all together into one market. For example, USC does not put a lot of grads into SF, so it's hard to test just how strong they are statewide.

The rankings are especially not helpful with regard to #9 versus #10. Why would a San Jose employer rank Loyola over SCU? SCU is local and feeds into the Bay Area.

Also, Chapman is overranked. It's too new of a school to say that it would outplace UoP in Sacramento or Southwestern in LA.

Also, I don't think people realize that regional schools make it far more convenient for you to get a job in a given region, but they're not a silver bullet. McGeorge does very well in Sacramento, but a McGeorge student is still going to have a really hard time competing with a GW grad who did some legwork and chose to apply to firms there.

NU_Jet55 wrote:

romothesavior wrote:UCLA. The opportunity to network far outweighs the opportunity to earn a quasi-prestigious degree at a school thousands of miles across the country.

TITCR

DIAF