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Hey all,

I have a friend who just got into USD and recently quit his $50-60k/year job. He's got a 3.7 and high 150s LSAT and I believe this is his first LS acceptance. He's psyched about paying sticker. I already gave him some cautionary advice, but he just took me as a buzz kill.

Any SD students/grads out there who regret paying sticker? I'd love to give him some anecdotes...

quickquestionthanks wrote:I'd love to give him some anecdotes...

...to make him/her feel bad about themselves? I thought you already did that:

quickquestionthanks wrote:he just took me as a buzz kill

quickquestionthanks wrote:Hey all,

I have a friend who just got into USD and recently quit his $50-60k/year job. He's got a 3.7 and high 150s LSAT and I believe this is his first LS acceptance. He's psyched about paying sticker. I already gave him some cautionary advice, but he just took me as a buzz kill.

Any SD students/grads out there who regret paying sticker? I'd love to give him some anecdotes...

Your a great friend

One of my buddies is going to St. John's, presumably with not a full ride (not a smart dude). I just smiled and nodded.

Matthies wrote: Your a great friend

Thanks.

rad law wrote:One of my buddies is going to St. John's, presumably with not a full ride (not a smart dude). I just smiled and nodded.

Isn't this being a bad friend? Wouldn't a good friend try and help them make better decisions?

quickquestionthanks wrote:

rad law wrote:One of my buddies is going to St. John's, presumably with not a full ride (not a smart dude). I just smiled and nodded.

Isn't this being a bad friend? Wouldn't a good friend try and help them make better decisions?

Maybe if this was a close friend I would have said something, but if I had said something I would have just antagonized the guy. In all likelihood he would have dismissed me as some doom and gloom naysayer.

If its the best he can do and wants to become an attorney, why get in his way?

jetlagz28 wrote:If its the best he can do and wants to become an attorney, why get in his way?

Because he would be more than likely to ruin himself financially in the process.

jetlagz28 wrote:If its the best he can do and wants to become an attorney, why get in his way?

Because he had a pretty decent paying job, which he should probably try and get back.

He's the type of law school student that gets into it 1) not really knowing what a lawyer does, and 2) just because he doesn't know what else to do with his life.

For the record, currently my best option is the same school with $22k/year, no stips. But now that I'm actually looking at $100k+ in debt when I graduate, I'm getting cold feet, since I know the realities. So I'm not just bashing the school because it's T-14 or bust for me, I'm trying to be sober here.

I was under the impression that USD did fairly well in the San Diego market. I don't think I would risk paying sticker, but with a nice scholarship, why not? There are worse places to end up than paradise. Of course, I haven't done any in-depth research about the job prospects, but I've certainly gotten the impression that they own the city. And it seems to me that most USC/UCLA grads choose to stay in LA, and the other big Cali schools are split between LA and SF. Unless you know something I don't?

That was my feeling as well. But when you factor in COL, books, fees (the fact that it's $41k this year, not $39k and thus likely to rise another $4k by graduation), you still end up well over $100k in debt.

And after doing a little research into biglaw firms in SD, it appears (not surprisingly) that TONS of SC and UCLA students want to live in San Diego, as do a lot of students from T6-T14 schools across the country. I'd say that less than 10% of biglaw associates in San Diego actually come from USD. So to land one of those jobs, you need to be in the top 10% and even then it's no guarantee.

I'm certainly not naive enough to assume I'll make that cut, nor am I confident enough to gamble on it.

protip: considering the "no-hire" status of the CA public sector, consider the whole state saturated.

Regarding yourself, 22/year isn't bad money (esp w/o strings), considering you seem to be taking the risks seriously, I suggest you attend for at least a semester (assuming this is best option in the end) to see how you fare grades wise. Even if you stayed till 1L summer you would only be 20k in the hole for your chance to win the ratrace (assuming you actually want to be lawyer and/or there isn't something else you could survive on).

Well consider the fact that you are going to be getting the same degree as him... lol

Say he does just as well as you at USD and gets a similar job upon graduation. The thing that would make you any better off than him would be $66k + interest. You might have a little nicer house than your friend. Congrats.

how dare someone be happy in law school. If you can't be excited and joyful for the opportunity, then nobody else should damn it!!

but seriously, the only negative input I would ever give a friend about law school, would be if they still have late 90s disillusions of "going to law school is guaranteed financial stability"

if your friend knows the risks and is still excited, then how about you worry about fixing your own levels of happiness, instead of trying to destroy others?

PS - just because he's making good money at his job doesn't mean he's happy with it. The job I have now could pay me 66K a year, and i'd still want to quit to go to law school. Maybe i'd stick it out another year just to save up a bit more, but I effing hate it and it lowers my overall happiness in life

uwb09 wrote: if your friend knows the risks and is still excited, then how about you worry about fixing your own levels of happiness, instead of trying to destroy others?

Because this friend has no conception of sound financial planning.

rad law wrote:

uwb09 wrote: if your friend knows the risks and is still excited, then how about you worry about fixing your own levels of happiness, instead of trying to destroy others?

Because this friend has no conception of sound financial planning.

i know this logic goes against many people on here who have no concept of happiness outside of large bank accounts

but money isn't everything

it's not like he's buying up 150K in stocks, he's investing 150K to obtain a JD, which he then can use to work as an attorney/judge/whatever for the rest of his life

if working as an attorney for 30 years will increase his life's happiness exponentially then working as whatever the hell he is working as now, then what's wrong with investing money in that?

uwb09 wrote:

rad law wrote:

uwb09 wrote: if your friend knows the risks and is still excited, then how about you worry about fixing your own levels of happiness, instead of trying to destroy others?

Because this friend has no conception of sound financial planning.

i know this logic goes against many people on here who have no concept of happiness outside of large bank accounts

but money isn't everything, if you suffer a massive stroke and die at 54, that huge savings account you've been stockpiling working a job you hate your whole life is useless

it's not like he's buying up 150K in stocks, he's investing 150K to obtain a JD, which he then can use to work as an attorney/judge/whatever for the rest of his life

if working as an attorney for 30 years will increase his life's happiness exponentially then working as whatever the hell he is working as now, then what's wrong with investing money in that?

Financial security is happiness for a lot of people (or probably more accurately, financial insecurity is unhappiness). Not "I can retire right now" security, but "I'm not living paycheck to paycheck" security.

Well, the quickest way to condemn yourself to living paycheck to paycheck is to get yourself into debt. There is no difference between student loan debt and credit card debt really.

For someone who has gainful employment, a non-T14 law school at anything resembling sticker price is a very poor financial decision.

Now, if you hate your job and you really want to become a lawyer (and you understand what a lawyer actually does) then sure, there are other factors to take into account.

But what I see in 0L's (and actual law students for that matter) is a group of people that wants to make money. They aren't all wealth-hungry lemmings who have no particular interest in law, but they aren't in it to be impoverished either.

Well for ~75% of the graduates of USD, that's exactly where they will end up.

DerrickRose wrote:Well, the quickest way to condemn yourself to living paycheck to paycheck is to get yourself into debt. There is no difference between student loan debt and credit card debt really.

Student loan debt is worse because it's at least theoretically possible to discharge credit card debt in bankruptcy, while student loan debt is basically impossible to get rid of.

uwb09 wrote: if working as an attorney for 30 years will increase his life's happiness exponentially then working as whatever the hell he is working as now, then what's wrong with investing money in that?

Don't lawyers have about the lowest job satisfaction ratings of anyone? At least practicing attorneys.

uwb09 wrote:
PS - just because he's making good money at his job doesn't mean he's happy with it. The job I have now could pay me 66K a year, and i'd still want to quit to go to law school. Maybe i'd stick it out another year just to save up a bit more, but I effing hate it and it lowers my overall happiness in life

This. Really who are you to say that he should try and get that job back? It might be hell for him. Rather than get anecdotes of people who failed that went to USD, (because we all know he wont listen anyways and believe that he will make top x%), why dont you really make him figure out what being a lawyer is all about and try and help him see if he would be happy in that career or not? If you arent happy in your job, 40 hrs/ week @100k/month can be hell, but if you are happy, 80hrs/week @ 40k can be great.

I didn't see the part where your friend asked your opinion or advice. It's acceptable to throw out opinions like retake or wait a year on TLS because people come here looking for advice. Also, many people lurk but don't post, so the advice can be helpful to people who don't post in the thread.

But if your friend didn't ask for your advice, don't go overboard giving it to him. Do you tell him where to live, whom to date, or where to work? If not, then you may be overstepping your bounds here.

NayBoer wrote:I didn't see the part where your friend asked your opinion or advice. It's acceptable to throw out opinions like retake or wait a year on TLS because people come here looking for advice. Also, many people lurk but don't post, so the advice can be helpful to people who don't post in the thread.

But if your friend didn't ask for your advice, don't go overboard giving it to him. Do you tell him where to live, whom to date, or where to work? If not, then you may be overstepping your bounds here.

Right. You might be thinking that it's a poor investment, but unless the person is asking your opinion, it's best to just wish him luck and hope that his choice works out.

uwb09 wrote:

rad law wrote: Because this friend has no conception of sound financial planning.

i know this logic goes against many people on here who have no concept of happiness outside of large bank accounts

but money isn't everything

it's not like he's buying up 150K in stocks, he's investing 150K to obtain a JD, which he then can use to work as an attorney/judge/whatever for the rest of his life

if working as an attorney for 30 years will increase his life's happiness exponentially then working as whatever the hell he is working as now, then what's wrong with investing money in that?

Not going hilariously into debt for the incredibly slim shot that you'll get a job you can pay it back =/= a desire for a "large bank account"

A JD, like it or not, is an investment, and a risky one at that because your JD by itself isn't gonna drastically increase in value over the years. Yes, happiness factors in a little bit, but as Derrickrose said, massive debt is incredibly detrimental to happiness. There's a lot you can do in life for a career that will make you happy and doesn't cost $150k of non-dischargeable debt. What if this friend wanted to retire at a decent age, buy a house, or send his kid to college? Sinking $150k into a JD that will disable you financially is a bad investment.

uwb09 wrote:

rad law wrote:

uwb09 wrote: if your friend knows the risks and is still excited, then how about you worry about fixing your own levels of happiness, instead of trying to destroy others?

Because this friend has no conception of sound financial planning.

i know this logic goes against many people on here who have no concept of happiness outside of large bank accounts

but money isn't everything

it's not like he's buying up 150K in stocks, he's investing 150K to obtain a JD, which he then can use to work as an attorney/judge/whatever for the rest of his life

if working as an attorney for 30 years will increase his life's happiness exponentially then working as whatever the hell he is working as now, then what's wrong with investing money in that?

Neither is happiness.

Quine wrote: Neither is happiness.

Loving the rampant pessimism Quine. Look forward to seeing you next year.