T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride Forum

[D. H2Oman]

And your hyperbole was obnoxious and terribly elitist. To suggest that someone who gets into and attends Pepperdine is at the same caliber school as someone who attends TJ or Touro is ridiculously offensive and untrue, no matter how hyperbolic you were being.

I apologize for comparison of the god like intellectuals at Pepperdine to the barely literate idiots at Thomas Jefferson.

[Regionality]

And your hyperbole was obnoxious and terribly elitist.

Is "elitist" the word of the day or something? Is it the new "if I say this I should win" word? Because people are tossing it around like an AmEx linked to daddy's bank account. It's ridiculous and cheap and does nothing except to make the people who are now overusing it look even less capable of making a decent argument.

Well actually I set out to try to prove you were an elitist...so using the word is vitally important. Did I hurt your feelings? Also, ironically, you tried to end your argument by throwing in a 180 accusation of my own elitism which is hilarious since I'm not defending anything or anyone as better than anything or anyone, nor did I claim any decision was wiser or action better...tough to be an elitist when I'm not claiming ANYTHING is SUPERIOR TO ANYTHING in any circumstance (though I certainly have opinions in this vague subject matter...just not in this thread)

[Regionality]

And your hyperbole was obnoxious and terribly elitist. To suggest that someone who gets into and attends Pepperdine is at the same caliber school as someone who attends TJ or Touro is ridiculously offensive and untrue, no matter how hyperbolic you were being.

I apologize for comparison of the god like intellectuals at Pepperdine to the barely literate idiots at Thomas Jefferson.

On behalf of the God-like intellectuals at Pepperdine I accept.

[smov_operator]

There are exceptions, of course. As someone stated earlier, strong regional schools, like UMaryland, which is one of only like two schools the entire state, will better off than their general rank may indicate. In general though, the lower one goes down the rankings, the more important it is to know the realistic and typical opportunities of one's school.

I know this isn't what you meant but the bolded is vitally important no matter what school you go to.

I definitely could have said that better. Of course it's hella important for every student to know that. What I meant was that the implications of someone at UCDavis, (my UG alma mater) not knowing where they want to work or the type of work, are much greater than for someone at Stanford.

I agree with you though. In this economy, no one can grab 200k in debt without knowing how/whether they will service it.

Edit: grammar

[DOS]

What on earth are you talking about?
To chose some examples according to ABA Data employment rates 9 months after graduation:

U Maryland (Rank 48): 99.6% with 99.3% reporting
Pepperdine (rank 52): 92.3% with 99.1% reporting

Thomas Jefferson Law (Tier 4): 79% with 100% reporting
Touro Law (Tier 4): 71% with 94% reporting

How is this essentially the same?

What I was saying was hyperbolic. Yeah there are some schools at the bottom of the 4th tier that are worse. But there's a huge range from like 50-150 where it is almost the same.

Also, those employment stats are garbage. If you want to trust those, you'll be in for a rude awakening.

And your hyperbole was obnoxious and terribly elitist. To suggest that someone who gets into and attends Pepperdine is at the same caliber school as someone who attends TJ or Touro is ridiculously offensive and untrue, no matter how hyperbolic you were being.

Again, we are not talking about the students. Leave Ego out of this. We are talking about employment prospects. Right now at Pepperdine the short term prospects are terrible. Since Pepperdine is a 'decent' school will graduates long term prospects be better? Given the saturation of the legal profession and the debt that new grads have to service the answer may be no even given a recovery.

Before this recession I know the stories I hear coming out of Tier 1 and Tier 2 schools were very hit or miss even for people who graduated 5 or 6 years ago.

[vanwinkle]

Well actually I set out to try to prove you were an elitist...so using the word is vitally important.

This is my point. Why even do that? Especially when you committed such an epic fail at it.

Also, ironically, you tried to end your argument by throwing in a 180 accusation of my own elitism which is hilarious since I'm not defending anything or anyone as better than anything or anyone, nor did I claim any decision was wiser or action better...tough to be an elitist when I'm not claiming ANYTHING is SUPERIOR TO ANYTHING in any circumstance (though I certainly have opinions in this vague subject matter...just not in this thread)

You were certainly putting down an entire group of people as inferior, assuming that they were categorically lazy and destined to be in the bottom of their class and behaving in entitled ways. That doesn't directly say that you're better than them, but it sure implies that you believe it.

[Regionality]

Well actually I set out to try to prove you were an elitist...so using the word is vitally important.

This is my point. Why even do that? Especially when you committed such an epic fail at it.

Also, ironically, you tried to end your argument by throwing in a 180 accusation of my own elitism which is hilarious since I'm not defending anything or anyone as better than anything or anyone, nor did I claim any decision was wiser or action better...tough to be an elitist when I'm not claiming ANYTHING is SUPERIOR TO ANYTHING in any circumstance (though I certainly have opinions in this vague subject matter...just not in this thread)

You were certainly putting down an entire group of people as inferior, assuming that they were categorically lazy and destined to be in the bottom of their class and behaving in entitled ways. That doesn't directly say that you're better than them, but it sure implies that you believe it.

I believe that elitism implies a relationship between a group of people and yourself...ie I would think that I'm superior for unfounded reasons...I don't think this. I wasn't comparing myself to them...I was comparing them to other students in their class. There's a big difference...

I'm not even in law school yet so how could I compare their law school performance to my own? And as for their undergrad GPA, I do think they were lazy to get sub 3.0 grades and I do think that they got into top law schools because the schools are obsessed with LSAT medians and rankings. It's not elitist to have that opinion...you don't even know what my GPA was. I think law school's obsessions with LSAT medians is unwise and unfair. Believing in an injustice is not elitism.

[D. H2Oman]

.I'm not even in law school yet so how could I compare their law school performance to my own? And as for their undergrad GPA, I do think they were lazy to get sub 3.0 grades and I do think that they got into top law schools because the schools are obsessed with LSAT medians and rankings. It's not elitist to have that opinion...you don't even know what my GPA was. I think law school's obsessions with LSAT medians is unwise and unfair. Believing in an injustice is not elitism.

Oh hi!

[Regionality]

Anyway, this has been fun. Haven't spent much time on TLS forums but it's always good to go back and forth....in the future I'll try to avoid threads breaking down into ad hominem attacks...but sometimes I suppose it's unavoidable when someone gets called an idiot.

[DerrickRose]

I believe that elitism implies a relationship between a group of people and yourself...ie I would think that I'm superior for unfounded reasons...I don't think this. I wasn't comparing myself to them...I was comparing them to other students in their class. There's a big difference...

I'm not even in law school yet so how could I compare their law school performance to my own? And as for their undergrad GPA, I do think they were lazy to get sub 3.0 grades and I do think that they got into top law schools because the schools are obsessed with LSAT medians and rankings. It's not elitist to have that opinion...you don't even know what my GPA was. I think law school's obsessions with LSAT medians is unwise and unfair. Believing in an injustice is not elitism.

There is no T14 with a 25th GPA percentile under 3.4

This thread is the World War I of straw men. Seldom have so many died for so little.

[GirlInTx]

I'm not even in law school yet so how could I compare their law school performance to my own? And as for their undergrad GPA, I do think they were lazy to get sub 3.0 grades and I do think that they got into top law schools because the schools are obsessed with LSAT medians and rankings.

What's wrong with LSAT obsession? It's my only guarantee of getting into a school I actually want to go to. My sub 3.0 GPA is a result of laziness (and bad taste in men). I can't argue that. However, I've had a 4.0 every semester since my freshman year with the exception of one B. There's really only so much you can do to bring up your GPA once you fuck it up. I'm just happy my university considers my GPA to be 3.6+ thanks to grade replacements so I'll still be able to graduate with honors in December.

[smov_operator]

I believe that elitism implies a relationship between a group of people and yourself...ie I would think that I'm superior for unfounded reasons...I don't think this. I wasn't comparing myself to them...I was comparing them to other students in their class. There's a big difference...

I'm not even in law school yet so how could I compare their law school performance to my own? And as for their undergrad GPA, I do think they were lazy to get sub 3.0 grades and I do think that they got into top law schools because the schools are obsessed with LSAT medians and rankings. It's not elitist to have that opinion...you don't even know what my GPA was. I think law school's obsessions with LSAT medians is unwise and unfair. Believing in an injustice is not elitism.

There is no T14 with a 25th GPA percentile under 3.4

This thread is the World War I of straw men. Seldom have so many died for so little.

+100

[DerrickRose]

Oh by the way, Regionality, I got a 3.3 in a state school humanities major without hardly trying and then got a big scholarship to a T25 by sole virtue of my LSAT score and now I come on TLS and tell people who were way better college students than I was that they shouldn't go to lower-ranked schools.

I believe I am the type you are complaining about. So, what of it?

[miamiman]

Anyway, this has been fun. Haven't spent much time on TLS forums but it's always good to go back and forth....in the future I'll try to avoid threads breaking down into ad hominem attacks...but sometimes I suppose it's unavoidable when someone gets called an idiot.

dude, I'm not getting involved beyond saying simply this: when you dont have any idea what the hell you're talking about, it's better to say things in the form of questions than in the form of statements.

ex.1 (what you want to say): T14 grads that can't find jobs are lazy pieces of sh*t.
ex.1 (what you should say): Isn't it possible that T14 grads who cant find jobs are just lazy pieces of sh*t?

ex. 2 (what you want to say): The NLJ 250 charts are elitist and don't reflect actual hiring patterns.
ex. 2 (what you should say): Isn't it possible that the NLJ 250 charts aren't indicative of hiring trends ITE?

[bk1]

I believe that elitism implies a relationship between a group of people and yourself...ie I would think that I'm superior for unfounded reasons...I don't think this. I wasn't comparing myself to them...I was comparing them to other students in their class. There's a big difference...

I'm not even in law school yet so how could I compare their law school performance to my own? And as for their undergrad GPA, I do think they were lazy to get sub 3.0 grades and I do think that they got into top law schools because the schools are obsessed with LSAT medians and rankings. It's not elitist to have that opinion...you don't even know what my GPA was. I think law school's obsessions with LSAT medians is unwise and unfair. Believing in an injustice is not elitism.

There is no T14 with a 25th GPA percentile under 3.4

This thread is the World War I of straw men. Seldom have so many died for so little.

The best part of this thread has been DerrickRose's comments.

[09042014]

I'm not even in law school yet so how could I compare their law school performance to my own? And as for their undergrad GPA, I do think they were lazy to get sub 3.0 grades and I do think that they got into top law schools because the schools are obsessed with LSAT medians and rankings. It's not elitist to have that opinion...you don't even know what my GPA was. I think law school's obsessions with LSAT medians is unwise and unfair. Believing in an injustice is not elitism.

I do think law schools obsession with LSAT medians is unfair (a 3.65/169 getting rejected and a 3.15/170 getting in all else equal when the median is 170.

However their obsession with the LSAT is not. All of the splitters I hear about kick it into high gear and do extremely well in law school. Their laziness can be cured, their intelligence doesn't go away.

[Grizz]

This thread is the World War I of straw men. Seldom have so many died for so little.

Awesome.

[GirlInTx]

However their obsession with the LSAT is not. All of the splitters I hear about kick it into high gear and do extremely well in law school. Their laziness can be cured, their intelligence doesn't go away.

My laziness was cured four years ago. Damn LSDAS GPA calculations.

[09042014]

However their obsession with the LSAT is not. All of the splitters I hear about kick it into high gear and do extremely well in law school. Their laziness can be cured, their intelligence doesn't go away.

My laziness was cured four years ago. Damn LSDAS GPA calculations.

Well I hope mine gets cured between now and August.

Though TBF as an engineering major, I did more work than almost everyone in liberal arts But I didn't do nearly as much work as other engineering majors. Hence I got pwnd. I won't make that mistake again.

[D. H2Oman]

My laziness was cured four years ago. Damn LSDAS GPA calculations.

Well I hope mine gets cured between now and August.

If you are able to find the cure, send it this way please.

[DerrickRose]

However their obsession with the LSAT is not. All of the splitters I hear about kick it into high gear and do extremely well in law school. Their laziness can be cured, their intelligence doesn't go away.

My laziness was cured four years ago. Damn LSDAS GPA calculations.

Well I hope mine gets cured between now and August.

If I might offer my expertise here, your laziness doesn't get cured, you're just too scared not to work hard. Plus, Desert Fox, the peer pressure to actually do the reading and show up to class is a 180 from being an undergrad at Illinois.

Being on TLS helps. A bit of "I'm never going to get a job" terror mixed in with a heaping tablespoon of elitism is usually does the trick. And with that, back to Torts.

Though TBF as an engineering major, I did more work than almost everyone in liberal arts But I didn't do nearly as much work as other engineering majors. Hence I got pwnd. I won't make that mistake again.

[vanwinkle]

I'm not even in law school yet so how could I compare their law school performance to my own?

By stating that their UG grades indicate that they're lazy, which creates a clear inference you expect to do better than them because you're not lazy like they are.

And as for their undergrad GPA, I do think they were lazy to get sub 3.0 grades and I do think that they got into top law schools because the schools are obsessed with LSAT medians and rankings.

It's pretty elitist to make assumptions about an entire group of people as they relate to you. You're assuming people who did worse than you in UG did so because they're lazier than you are.

It's not elitist to have that opinion...you don't even know what my GPA was. I think law school's obsessions with LSAT medians is unwise and unfair. Believing in an injustice is not elitism.

I'm inferring from the facts that you think 3.0 GPA students getting into top schools is unjust and your categorizing them as lazy that you have a higher than 3.0 GPA. If you had a GPA that low, then you would either be expressing this in personal terms that you know because you're lazy, but you seem to be expressing the opposite about yourself, that you're going to "struggle" to make the most of your opportunities. It appears pretty obvious that you have an above-3.0 GPA and a grudge against people who get into top law schools with a 3.0 or below GPA.

Believing in a false injustice for the sake of making yourself feel superior is elitism.

I think DerrickRose summed it up best:

This thread is the World War I of straw men. Seldom have so many died for so little.

[Kilpatrick]

vanwinkle, keep fighting the good fight. The guy you're arguing with has no clue and doesn't look like he is ever going to admit he's wrong, but it is really helpful reading your comments. Some people are going to read what you wrote and take your advice, even if this guy is going to just keep falling back on his cries of elitism. Thanks.

[Regionality]

vanwinkle, keep fighting the good fight. The guy you're arguing with has no clue and doesn't look like he is ever going to admit he's wrong, but it is really helpful reading your comments. Some people are going to read what you wrote and take your advice, even if this guy is going to just keep falling back on his cries of elitism. Thanks.

I'm not falling back on cries of elitism except as it relates to vanwinkle. My primary point was that it's ridiculous to say that going to a non T14 school but still tier 1 school is a bad idea...that's where all of this started, and it devolved into personal accusations of elitism.

I still think that the advice vanwinkle is giving is bad. I do not agree with what I understand his advice to be, that if you can't get into a T14 school, and you don't get significant money at a T50, then it isn't worth it to go to law school (Vanwinkle, if I characterized your advice wrongly, please say so).

Whether Vanwinkle is elitist or not, and whether I am or not, is quite irrelevant to the decisions that many students are grasping with right now: to go to law school or not, which law school to go to, and where to draw the line in terms of cost of investment/lost opportunity cost vs legal career prospects and capacity to pay back student loans.

That discussion is a good one to have. Vanwinkle vs me is not.

[DOS]

vanwinkle, keep fighting the good fight. The guy you're arguing with has no clue and doesn't look like he is ever going to admit he's wrong, but it is really helpful reading your comments. Some people are going to read what you wrote and take your advice, even if this guy is going to just keep falling back on his cries of elitism. Thanks.

I'm not falling back on cries of elitism except as it relates to vanwinkle. My primary point was that it's ridiculous to say that going to a non T14 school but still tier 1 school is a bad idea...that's where all of this started, and it devolved into personal accusations of elitism.

I still think that the advice vanwinkle is giving is bad. I do not agree with what I understand his advice to be, that if you can't get into a T14 school, and you don't get significant money at a T50, then it isn't worth it to go to law school (Vanwinkle, if I characterized your advice wrongly, please say so).

Whether Vanwinkle is elitist or not, and whether I am or not, is quite irrelevant to the decisions that many students are grasping with right now: to go to law school or not, which law school to go to, and where to draw the line in terms of cost of investment/lost opportunity cost vs legal career prospects and capacity to pay back student loans.

That discussion is a good one to have. Vanwinkle vs me is not.

It is not worth going to Tulane at sticker. There are several other T1s where you can also make this statement.