TLS Conventional Wisdom Collection Agency Forum

[98234872348]

< 160 LSAT --> Go to business school

That's the TLS conventional wisdom as I understand it.

TLS CW>>>>Less the 160 LSAT means [strike]stop going to school and get a real job.[/strike] /killself

fixed

[Mr. Matlock]

I honestly don't think there is any school where its not worthwhile to go no matter what, except unaccredited.

I strenuously disagree, but that's why we're doing this.

I just think there is no way in hell someone should ever go to a school like Cooley or NYLS.

Or Ave Maria, or Southwestern, or John Marshall, or Golden Gate, and so on and so on.

Wow. Just wow.

I take it you disagree?

I agree that the cut-off is whichever schools there's no way in hell you'd ever attend. I also agree that many schools charge too much considering the options they can truly provide for their students. However, I don't believe anyone at TLS is qualified to do a school by school analysis and come up with a definitive worth of any of them. You can certainly make blanket statements, what TLS does best, but there's no way to quantify what is perceived worth/value to any individual.

But hey, it's TOP Law Schools dot com. Have fun!

[ughOSU]

< 160 LSAT --> Go to business school

That's the TLS conventional wisdom as I understand it.

TLS CW>>>>Less the 160 LSAT means [strike]stop going to school and get a real job.[/strike] /killself

fixed

I was going to go with [/self], but thought that was too harsh even for TLS.

e: now I think I've got it:

< 160 --> [/self]
160-169 --> retake
170+ --> apply to the T14

[98234872348]

I honestly don't think there is any school where its not worthwhile to go no matter what, except unaccredited.

I strenuously disagree, but that's why we're doing this.

I just think there is no way in hell someone should ever go to a school like Cooley or NYLS.

Or Ave Maria, or Southwestern, or John Marshall, or Golden Gate, and so on and so on.

Wow. Just wow.

I take it you disagree?

I believe that all these lawyers would vehemently disagree.

http://www.skadden.com/index.cfm?conten ... bioID=4609
http://www.skadden.com/index.cfm?conten ... bioID=7963
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Not that I would ever encourage anyone to go to NYLS, but you can't deny that it DOES place graduates in firms making market, and even *gasp* in V10 firms...

[Mr. Matlock]

I believe that all these lawyers would vehemently disagree.

http://www.skadden.com/index.cfm?conten ... bioID=4609
http://www.skadden.com/index.cfm?conten ... bioID=7963
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Not that I would ever encourage anyone to go to NYLS, but you can't deny that it DOES place graduates in firms making market, and even *gasp* in V10 firms...

MR. GOFT!!!!! Resume studying immediately!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[84Sunbird2000]

I'd like to add some schools that people simply shouldn't go to unless they are resigned to attempting 10-year IBR and have no inkling (even the tiniest inkling) of doing more than legal aid. Even then, people shouldn't go:

Appalachian
Ave Maria
Barry
Cal Western
Capital
Charleston
Charlotte
Florida A&M
Florida Coastal
Florida International (Man, does Florida have some shitty schools!)
La Verne
Liberty/Regent (Unless you want to do state gov't work under a far-right Republican framework)
Nashville
NYLS
Nova Southeastern
Phoenix
St. Thomas - Florida
Thomas M. Cooley
Thomas Jefferson
Touro
Western State
Whittier

There are some more that are borderline, but I felt I couldn't be quite as unequivocal about. For the record, I'm not an "elitist", and I really do think that some T3s serve their own markets well and may be generous with scholarships, but these schools are just awful and borderline criminal in their predation upon the dreams of the ignorant.

[Always Credited]

I believe that all these lawyers would vehemently disagree.

http://www.skadden.com/index.cfm?conten ... bioID=4609
http://www.skadden.com/index.cfm?conten ... bioID=7963
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http://www.cgsh.com/ssado/
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Not that I would ever encourage anyone to go to NYLS, but you can't deny that it DOES place graduates in firms making market, and even *gasp* in V10 firms...

All latin honors, all law review. No one has ever said the top 5% of NYLS can't get a good job - they only say the next 95% won't be employed.

[prezidentv8]

I always thought the conventional wisdom on here was to not go to law school and be an engineer or doctor instead...?

[Always Credited]

All latin honors, all law review. No one has ever said the top 5% of NYLS can't get a good job - they only say the next 95% won't be employment.

No, but plenty of people have said that NYLS is a terrible school, that it should be shut down, that no one should ever go there.

Well, to be completely fair, it is a terrible school that probably should be shut down. But as you said earlier in the thread, different strokes for different folks and someone somewhere probably has a legit reason for attending. So words like "never", "no one", "nowhere" should probably not be used.

Then again, this thread is catered to the general, not to the exception. And the general rule is NYLS = death.

[DerrickRose]

All latin honors, all law review. No one has ever said the top 5% of NYLS can't get a good job - they only say the next 95% won't be employment.

No, but plenty of people have said that NYLS is a terrible school, that it should be shut down, that no one should ever go there.

The underlying logic being used here:

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Except in this case, its more like 1 out of 20 than 5 out of 6.

[DOS]

The problem with with thread is that it is focusing on the controversies rather than the TLS CW.

CW might go, unless you think there is a high probability of marriage do not pick schools based on your SO's needs b/c law school tends to be rough on relationships.

CW: A SO is usually better off finding a job/niche in a city rather than a college town.

Next topic

CW: There are 14 national law schools, but only Y and H have equal placement everywhere.

Controversy: What is the reach of the super-regional (15-18) law schools?

Controversy: (Special Case)Is ND a national law school assuming you do well enough?

etc.

The important thing is to highlight where TLS mostly agrees and what people argue about - for example rankings vs. debt.

[98234872348]

All latin honors, all law review. No one has ever said the top 5% of NYLS can't get a good job - they only say the next 95% won't be employment.

No, but plenty of people have said that NYLS is a terrible school, that it should be shut down, that no one should ever go there.

The bold comment prompted my response.

I don't think that NYLS is a good decision for about 97% of the people that attend; however, that does not mean it's a poor decision for everyone.

[keg411]

I actually know someone at NYLS. She's doing fairly well (Top 15% first sememster and has a nice summer job lined up), but if I had known that she was considering it, I probably would have told her not to go. Especially since she has a specific niche that's very very tough to break into (though she does have connections in that niche from a past job). I have no clue what will happen, but if I had known I wouldn't have recommended it.

But I think most pricey private schools aren't worth it. Even highly ranked ones (ie. GW, Fordham, WUSTL, Emory etc.) because even those schools still don't put more than 20% into BigLaw and you are paying a premium for a few percentage points off the rest of the pack.

[chris0805]

All latin honors, all law review. No one has ever said the top 5% of NYLS can't get a good job - they only say the next 95% won't be employment.

No, but plenty of people have said that NYLS is a terrible school, that it should be shut down, that no one should ever go there.

The bold comment prompted my response.

I don't think that NYLS is a good decision for about 97% of the people that attend; however, that does not mean it's a poor decision for everyone.

Without making any specific judgment on NYLS (I don't know enough), if we all put 120,000 on one roullete number and ~1/30 of us hit it big while the rest of us get screwed, I would still say that NO ONE should ever put 120K+ on a single roulette number. It's a bad bet.

Law school isn't random, but no one really knows how they'll do. If only the top 3 % get any decent work at a given school, I would say that NO ONE should go there without a full scholarship and, even then, it might be questionable because of opportunity costs.

[NoleinNY]

In response to the original topic:

Depending on how comprehensive you plan on making this then, in cases where it may come down to either one regional t1/t2 school vs another regional t1/t2, I submit that a bullet point be added in the eventual TLS Wisdom Bible that recommends (if possible) "asking practicing lawyers you know from the area about what they know or think about the schools and how they compare."

For example, if you wanted to practice in San Diego and can't decide between Hastings and Davis, Fort Myers and can't decide between FSU and Miami, or anywhere in Austin and can't decide between SMU and U of H.

[ihurtmyselftoday]

But I think most pricey private schools aren't worth it. Even highly ranked ones (ie. GW, Fordham, WUSTL, Emory etc.) because even those schools still don't put more than 20% into BigLaw and you are paying a premium for a few percentage points off the rest of the pack.

LOLz @ your completely made-up "facts". GW put over 30% in biglaw last year. As for the rest of thpse "pricey private schools", every one you mentioned placed over 20% into biglaw in 2009. So did the rest of the T30. This is according to the NLJ "Go-To" Law Schools survey, not the numbers produced by the ABA.

@Desert Fox: Please explain your logic in grouping GULC with Vandy, UT, UCLA, and USC(????) but not including Cornell in that group. I think the data suggests that GULC is far more "national" than any of the schools you grouped it with, arguably even more so than Cornell. Furthermore, Georgetown's placement in biglaw, federal government, and Article III clerkships combined is greater than Cornell's. So other than being a anti-GULC troll d-bag, how can you explain your grouping?

Apparently "TLS Conventional Wisdom"=Ignoring evidence in favor of self-satisfying and blantant lies.

[09042014]

@Desert Fox: Please explain your logic in grouping GULC with Vandy, UT, UCLA, and USC(????) but not including Cornell in that group. I think the data suggests that GULC is far more "national" than any of the schools you grouped it with, arguably even more so than Cornell. Furthermore, Georgetown's placement in biglaw, federal government, and Article III clerkships combined is greater than Cornell's. So other than being a anti-GULC troll d-bag, how can you explain your grouping?

Gulc doesn't beat Cornell in COA clerkships (per student at least). And before 2009, Cornell had a very substantial lead in big law placement. But for class of 2009, NYC firms disproportionately no offered SA's, while DC wasn't no offering anyone. This is why schools like UMich, Uva, and NU beat out NYU.

If Cornell hiring stays at 2009 levels, then I'd agree with you, but I'm of the opinion that Cornell's hiring will bounce back with NYC. Rumors out of OCI confirm my suspicions, but they are just rumors.

[Mr. Matlock]

So other than being a anti-GULC troll d-bag, how can you explain your grouping?

Apparently "TLS Conventional Wisdom"=Ignoring evidence in favor of self-satisfying and blantant lies.

FIGHT THE POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bk1]

I have to agree with DerrickRose and chris0805. Yes the top 1-5% at even the worst schools will have NLJ250 prospects, but that doesn't mean one should go. Just because one person wins the lottery doesn't mean that people should ever buy a lottery ticket. I am going to go out on a limb here, but I do not think that anybody could guarantee themselves to be in the top 1-5% of their class at any law school (or even come close to giving themselves 25/75 odds). With that in mind, I agree that without a full scholarship (and even then) or a job already lined up post-graduation, there is no reason to recommend going to a school with poor job prospects.

[ughOSU]

Apparently "TLS Conventional Wisdom"=Ignoring evidence in favor of self-satisfying and blantant lies.

Isn't this more or less what "conventional wisdom" is?

from wikipedia:

Conventional wisdom (CW) is a term used to describe ideas or explanations that are generally accepted as true by the public or by experts in a field. The term implies that the ideas or explanations, though widely held, are unexamined and, hence, may be reevaluated upon further examination or as events unfold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_wisdom

[romothesavior]

I actually know someone at NYLS. She's doing fairly well (Top 15% first sememster and has a nice summer job lined up), but if I had known that she was considering it, I probably would have told her not to go. Especially since she has a specific niche that's very very tough to break into (though she does have connections in that niche from a past job). I have no clue what will happen, but if I had known I wouldn't have recommended it.

But I think most pricey private schools aren't worth it. Even highly ranked ones (ie. GW, Fordham, WUSTL, Emory etc.) because even those schools still don't put more than 20% into BigLaw and you are paying a premium for a few percentage points off the rest of the pack.

Blatantly false. Check the numbers. Ever heard of the NLJ 250 "Go To" schools list?

Overall, decent thread idea I suppose, but I completely disagree with this magical T18 cutoff (and not just because I am going to #19 in the fall ). As noted above, Vanderbilt=UIUC/ND/WUSTL for the midwest? Would you say Cornell=USC/UCLA or even Hastings/Davis for the west coast? Going to Vanderbilt or USC, or even a lower T14, is not always credited when the school isn't particularly strong in the desired region. Just because a school is "national" does not mean it is better at placing in certain regions than a strong regional school.

There are many reasons for turning down T14s (or in this case, T18s) and one of those reasons is location. I got into Cornell and turned it down because there is no way in hell I would pay 200k+ to go to a New York City/East Coast feeder school when I want to end up in the Midwest.

[prezidentv8]

Argument I see unfolding:

Don't go to TTTT's because you never will get a job!;
WAIT! SOME people can get SOME kind of job and it MIGHT be a good idea for CERTAIN people who DON'T want BIGLAW!
NOT IF THEY WANT BIGLAW IT'S NOT!

[bk1]

Argument I see unfolding:

Don't go to TTTT's because you never will get a job!;
WAIT! SOME people can get SOME kind of job and it MIGHT be a good idea for CERTAIN people who DON'T want BIGLAW!
NOT IF THEY WANT BIGLAW IT'S NOT!

Gotta pay off the debtload that even low schools straddle you with somehow. If it is somebody's end goal to have a JD then the argument is irrelevant. If the point is to have a JD with promising economic options, then it depends.

[romothesavior]

Also.... no Iowa/Wisconsin/Minnesota/Indiana in your Chicago group? You really think USC, UCLA, Vandy, and Texas are better for Chicago than the Big Ten schools?

And Fordham is not an East Coast school. It is a NYC school. It is not on par with the other EC schools you mentioned unless you want NYC.

[ihurtmyselftoday]

Apparently "TLS Conventional Wisdom"=Ignoring evidence in favor of self-satisfying and blantant lies.

Isn't this more or less what "conventional wisdom" is?

from wikipedia:

Conventional wisdom (CW) is a term used to describe ideas or explanations that are generally accepted as true by the public or by experts in a field. The term implies that the ideas or explanations, though widely held, are unexamined and, hence, may be reevaluated upon further examination or as events unfold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_wisdom

True yet disturbing. So you would agree that the proposed "TLS Conventional Wisdom Bible" is more or less meaningless...

...but I guess it can be used to demonstrate how LOLsy the psuedo-expertise can get in this forum.