. Forum

[tintin]

..

[Core]

At least you don't lose either way.
I don't know how interesting you find dual degrees/certificates, but Penn offers a number of great ones you can complete in 3 years and not pay a cent for.

[Dead Ringer]

Believe me that the "vibe" you get in two days really doesn't predict your social experience well. I thought the same thing about Chicago and found that I like nearly everyone here a lot now. Of course, as a 3L told me, you will know quickly know who you are friends with because they are the great and who you are friends with just because you go to school with them. I don't know anything about Penn so I can't be too useful, but I will tell you that the winter was not bad.

[Veyron]

Oh hi me (except my decision is NYU, Penn).

FWIW, I'm leaning NYU, I'm going to law school to be a lawyer, and I want to be the best one that I can be. If my primary consideration was having fun for three years, why not just become a pornstar?

Of course, thats my thinking at the moment.

Also - I flipped a coin, it came up NYU.

[Emma.]

I voted Chi for selfish reasons, because if I go there then we can be classmates. TTC study group with Fancy Pants and JollyGreenGiant FTW!

I also had a different experience at ASD. Students seemed kind of dorky but fine.

[tintin]

I voted Chi for selfish reasons, because if I go there then we can be classmates. TTC study group with Fancy Pants and JollyGreenGiant FTW!

I also had a different experience at ASD. Students seemed kind of dorky but fine.

oh snap, i didn't know you guys were all going.

edit: I also wasn't there for ASW so I had a very limited view of the school (and of Penn too, just one day at each)

[Dead Ringer]

Catch any law school on the wrong day and the atmosphere can be downright funereal.

[tintin]

Catch any law school on the wrong day and the atmosphere can be downright funereal.

they were just starting after a break i think so that is quite possible. the people just seemed kinda nerdy/antisocial....

chicago's campus (the law part) was also pretty ugly to me.

[jacko]

I think the whole "where fun goes to die" thing is over-hyped on TLS. It's law school for god's sake- an inherently not fun place.

[lawyering]

I think the whole "where fun goes to die" thing is over-hyped on TLS. It's law school for god's sake- an inherently not fun place.

...precisely why you should choose Penn!! but you already knew my vote...

[GeePee]

I think the whole "where fun goes to die" thing is over-hyped on TLS. It's law school for god's sake- an inherently not fun place.

Nonsense. The people that I've met all love law school, with the exception of the couple weeks before finals each semester, writing onto LR and the OCI marathon. You should pick a place that you'd enjoy for the rest of the time.

[tintin]

I think the whole "where fun goes to die" thing is over-hyped on TLS. It's law school for god's sake- an inherently not fun place.

Nonsense. The people that I've met all love law school, with the exception of the couple weeks before finals each semester, writing onto LR and the OCI marathon. You should pick a place that you'd enjoy for the rest of the time.

even at the expense of academia and clerkship dreams, do you think?

[ne11986]

I think the numbers for Penn's "prestigious" clerkship placements are skewed. The reason for this is simply because most students at Penn do not want to clerk at all--this year alone I know that only a little over 50 out of 250 students did federal clerkships. However, many of those got prestigious ones (D.C. Cir., 2d, SDNY). In sum, the resources are there if you want them, but most students simply want to go to Biglaw. Granted that might change with the economy.

Regarding academia, you must know that, while choice of school matters slightly, the most important thing is the ability to publish. Penn has a great faculty that will assist you in that regard. Simply going to Chicago is not going to get it done--you have to have the ideas and put forth the effort. Moreover, the law school recently started an intense Supreme Court clinic, and the students won their first case this term. I suspect that this will help facilitate more of the academic prestige options you think are more prevalent at Chicago.

Anyway, go where you enjoy the most because both are really fantastic schools.

[ne11986]

Oh yeah, and by the way, I am a Penn alum who is currently clerking COA and working next year at a V10 in Los Angeles. Just some disclosure...

[Emma.]

I voted Chi for selfish reasons, because if I go there then we can be classmates. TTC study group with Fancy Pants and JollyGreenGiant FTW!

I also had a different experience at ASD. Students seemed kind of dorky but fine.

oh snap, i didn't know you guys were all going.

edit: I also wasn't there for ASW so I had a very limited view of the school (and of Penn too, just one day at each)

Well, I'm not sure yet (see my thread in this forum ) but FP and JGG are a lock.

We must have different architectural tastes because the LS building at Chi blew me away. I would have loved to go to ASW instead of just a Day in the Life day.

[miamiman]

For what its worth, my friend was debating chi vs penn and chose chi.

[thisguy456]

Oh yeah, and by the way, I am a Penn alum who is currently clerking COA and working next year at a V10 in Los Angeles. Just some disclosure...

NBD

[spondee]

Regarding academia, you must know that, while choice of school matters slightly, the most important thing is the ability to publish. Penn has a great faculty that will assist you in that regard. Simply going to Chicago is not going to get it done--you have to have the ideas and put forth the effort.

Anyway, go where you enjoy the most because both are really fantastic schools.

Agree with this. In evaluating a school's ability to place clerks or future academics, historical success in one important factor, but historical aggregates should not decide individual futures.

To achieve either a clerkship or academia you'll need top grades and LR from a top school with strong faculty support and, most importantly, strong writing and research/publication credentials. Both schools fit the 'top school' requirement. But which will better aid you in achieving the other requirements?

In which environment will you be better able to focus and succeed academically? Where will it be easier to make LR? Which school will offer greater opportunities to find mentors among the faculty? Will these mentors assist & guide your research? Will they call judges and hiring committees on your behalf? Which will offer better financial support while clerking or performing post-JD, pre-tenure-track research? Etc.

If an admissions dean says, "Yes, our faculty are very approachable and helpful and have made calls many times in support of our students seeking clerkships," that's very different than if an admissions dean says, "Each year we hold a meeting with all 2Ls interested in clerkships and match them up with potential mentors based on research interests. Our faculty clerkship committee coordinates recommendations for students and maintains strong ties with many CoA judges..."

Maybe I'm stating the obvious? Chicago's obviously a great school - I really enjoyed visiting and loved the interior of the library, if not the exterior - and probably much of Chicago's historical success is due to institutionalized support structures and not merely self-selection among applications, but I think asking these questions is better than following law student/TLS herd mentality that says 'Choose Chicago for clerkships/academia.' And you seem only interested in Chicago if it actually does help in these goals, so best to be sure...

[jcunni5]

Just thought I'd throw in that I've lived in and around Chicago for almost my whole life and winters are soul crushing this last winter was fairly mild but expect ninth circle of hell cold just sayin
edit: though Penn is prolly not that warm either never really experience a Philly winter

[ChaotiCait]

I feel like visiting on a normal day would give you a very different feel than going to ASW. I feel like I got to talk to a lot of the students at UChi and they all really enjoyed their experiences. I'm kind of biased because l'll be attending UChi in the fall, but it seemed like a really enjoyable place. Have you read any of the stuff that Martha Nussbaum is working on? I just started reading her new book on gay rights, from disgust to humanity, and its pretty awesome, I sat in on her class at ASW. I hope you have a great experience whichever you pick!

[fortissimo]

Chicago is hideously ugly (top 3 ugliest law schools in the top 14), but Philly is a shithole (then again Hyde Park is too), so it's a close one...I'd probably go to Chicago if they were the same price, but if Penn offered 45k+, I'd go there.

btw, Chicago doesn't actually place that many percentage-wise into clerkships.

[im_blue]

It sounds like you understand the tradeoffs well: better west coast, clerkship, and academic placement vs the campus you liked better. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

[tintin]

Chicago is hideously ugly (top 3 ugliest law schools in the top 14), but Philly is a shithole (then again Hyde Park is too), so it's a close one...I'd probably go to Chicago if they were the same price, but if Penn offered 45k+, I'd go there.

btw, Chicago doesn't actually place that many percentage-wise into clerkships.

yes, they are the same price for me unfortunately. i told penn i would go if they threw some $$ at me, but they did not.

and it actually seems like penn is doing major work on pushing clerkships, their numbers rival chicago's this year. perhaps chicago places more people into federal clerkships (I haven't checked this out though).

so yeah, basically the academia thing is what is holding me back. it seems like there must be some reason that chicago does so well at it- even if it is just the "brand name" so to speak. both penn and chicago seem to have very good access to faculty, though chicago's faculty has more star power...

as to where i would do better, tricky to say. just because i liked the atmosphere at one better doesn't really mean i would do any better there.

[Core]

Chicago is hideously ugly (top 3 ugliest law schools in the top 14), but Philly is a shithole (then again Hyde Park is too), so it's a close one...I'd probably go to Chicago if they were the same price, but if Penn offered 45k+, I'd go there.

btw, Chicago doesn't actually place that many percentage-wise into clerkships.

yes, they are the same price for me unfortunately. i told penn i would go if they threw some $$ at me, but they did not.

and it actually seems like penn is doing major work on pushing clerkships, their numbers rival chicago's this year. perhaps chicago places more people into federal clerkships (I haven't checked this out though).

so yeah, basically the academia thing is what is holding me back. it seems like there must be some reason that chicago does so well at it- even if it is just the "brand name" so to speak. both penn and chicago seem to have very good access to faculty, though chicago's faculty has more star power...

as to where i would do better, tricky to say. just because i liked the atmosphere at one better doesn't really mean i would do any better there.

I spoke to a few Penn alums and they all noted a very recent push for academia. I believe if you poke around Penn's web site you'll see some new courses focusing on helping students publish and present an academic work.

[cranberry]

tintin why aren't you considering nyu? it's less cold there than chicago, the area around campus is lively, and they lack the dip in prestige/placement you perceive with penn (vs chicago).