Top Law Schools

I posted about this in another thread, and everybody pretty much said Penn was the better choice, but I figure it can only help to get further insight.
I received a $78,000 award (mixture of a grant and a Dean's Scholarship) from Penn and absolutely nothing from Chicago. Negotiation with Chicago got me nowhere, save for a rude response from their financial aid dean. I am really enamored with Chicago, and Penn seems to be a step down, based on these boards and various rankings, so I don't know what to do - hence the creation of this thread. I have apps pending at CLS, HLS, and SLS, but I'd like to be able to decide between Penn and Chicago asap.
My ultimate goal is do get a government, nonprofit, or ngo job in NYC (D.C. is my second choice). I am not interested in Biglaw for the long term but am not opposed to doing it for a year or two directly after graduation. I am also somewhat interested in doing a clerkship after graduation.
Any insight would be much appreciated.

money talks

in all seriousness.. what are your goals?

Core wrote:I posted about this in another thread, and everybody pretty much said Penn was the better choice, but I figure it can only help to get further insight.
I received a $78,000 award (mixture of a grant and a Dean's Scholarship) from Penn and absolutely nothing from Chicago. Negotiation with Chicago got me nowhere, save for a rude response from their financial aid dean. I am really enamored with Chicago, and Penn seems to be a step down, based on these boards and various rankings, so I don't know what to do - hence the creation of this thread. I have apps pending at CLS, HLS, and SLS, but I'd like to be able to decide between Penn and Chicago asap.
My ultimate goal is do get a government, nonprofit, or ngo job in NYC (D.C. is my second choice). I am not interested in Biglaw for the long term but am not opposed to doing it for a year or two directly after graduation. I am also interested in doing a clerkship after graduation.
Any insight would be much appreciated.

wow, tough call. I mean, personally, if I was pursuing JUST PI, I'd say take the money and run. But Chicago does do well with Clerskhips, and I imagine the differential in placement is significant. However, I also imagine Penn has stronger inroads into NYC, though that's speculation. Id visit both and make a judgment call.

This is a tough decision, imo. Before you reach any final conclusions, though, I'd wait to see what Chicago unveils re: LARP & PI at the asw this weekend. Also, have you been able to visit them both?

miamiman wrote:

Core wrote:I posted about this in another thread, and everybody pretty much said Penn was the better choice, but I figure it can only help to get further insight.
I received a $78,000 award (mixture of a grant and a Dean's Scholarship) from Penn and absolutely nothing from Chicago. Negotiation with Chicago got me nowhere, save for a rude response from their financial aid dean. I am really enamored with Chicago, and Penn seems to be a step down, based on these boards and various rankings, so I don't know what to do - hence the creation of this thread. I have apps pending at CLS, HLS, and SLS, but I'd like to be able to decide between Penn and Chicago asap.
My ultimate goal is do get a government, nonprofit, or ngo job in NYC (D.C. is my second choice). I am not interested in Biglaw for the long term but am not opposed to doing it for a year or two directly after graduation. I am also interested in doing a clerkship after graduation.
Any insight would be much appreciated.

wow, tough call. I mean, personally, if I was pursuing JUST PI, I'd say take the money and run. But Chicago does do well with Clerskhips, and I imagine the differential in placement is significant. However, I also imagine Penn has stronger inroads into NYC, though that's speculation. Id visit both and make a judgment call.

To be fair, my interest in a clerkship is minor. I doubt I'd have the grades to get one at either school, so nevermind that lol.

This needs a poll!

Core wrote:

miamiman wrote:

Core wrote:I posted about this in another thread, and everybody pretty much said Penn was the better choice, but I figure it can only help to get further insight.
I received a $78,000 award (mixture of a grant and a Dean's Scholarship) from Penn and absolutely nothing from Chicago. Negotiation with Chicago got me nowhere, save for a rude response from their financial aid dean. I am really enamored with Chicago, and Penn seems to be a step down, based on these boards and various rankings, so I don't know what to do - hence the creation of this thread. I have apps pending at CLS, HLS, and SLS, but I'd like to be able to decide between Penn and Chicago asap.
My ultimate goal is do get a government, nonprofit, or ngo job in NYC (D.C. is my second choice). I am not interested in Biglaw for the long term but am not opposed to doing it for a year or two directly after graduation. I am also interested in doing a clerkship after graduation.
Any insight would be much appreciated.

wow, tough call. I mean, personally, if I was pursuing JUST PI, I'd say take the money and run. But Chicago does do well with Clerskhips, and I imagine the differential in placement is significant. However, I also imagine Penn has stronger inroads into NYC, though that's speculation. Id visit both and make a judgment call.

To be fair, my interest in a clerkship is minor. I doubt I'd have the grades to get one at either school, so nevermind that lol.

PENN for the win

AngryAvocado wrote:This is a tough decision, imo. Before you reach any final conclusions, though, I'd wait to see what Chicago unveils re: LARP & PI at the asw this weekend. Also, have you been able to visit them both?

I have not, but I am visiting Penn this weekend.

It seems that your basic options are Chicago with a year or two of biglaw to pay off your extra debt before you can do what you want to do in PI, versus Penn with graduation straight into doing what you want to do in PI. It is true Chicago would likely give you more slightly options. But it is hard to see that a year or two of really terrible quality of life in biglaw (given your career interests, not necessarily terrible quality of life for others) is worth it.

Core wrote:I posted about this in another thread, and everybody pretty much said Penn was the better choice, but I figure it can only help to get further insight.
I received a $78,000 award (mixture of a grant and a Dean's Scholarship) from Penn and absolutely nothing from Chicago. Negotiation with Chicago got me nowhere, save for a rude response from their financial aid dean. I am really enamored with Chicago, and Penn seems to be a step down, based on these boards and various rankings, so I don't know what to do - hence the creation of this thread. I have apps pending at CLS, HLS, and SLS, but I'd like to be able to decide between Penn and Chicago asap.
My ultimate goal is do get a government, nonprofit, or ngo job in NYC (D.C. is my second choice). I am not interested in Biglaw for the long term but am not opposed to doing it for a year or two directly after graduation. I am also somewhat interested in doing a clerkship after graduation.
Any insight would be much appreciated.

exactly what about chicago enamores?

sumus romani wrote:It seems that your basic options are Chicago with a year or two of biglaw to pay off your extra debt before you can do what you want to do in PI, versus Penn with graduation straight into doing what you want to do in PI. It is true Chicago would likely give you more slightly options. But it is hard to see that a year or two of really terrible quality of life in biglaw (given your career interests, not necessarily terrible quality of life for others) is worth it.

Even at Penn, OP would have $120,000 in debt.

If you want to do PI straight away, you'll be relying on the LRAP either way.

Core wrote:save for a rude response from their financial aid dean.

I've actually now heard this same sentiment from more than 3 people about the financial aid dean. Unless it's everyone catching her on a bad day, I wonder why she reacts in such a bad way to people asking for some financial help.

Go Penn!

scribelaw wrote:

sumus romani wrote:It seems that your basic options are Chicago with a year or two of biglaw to pay off your extra debt before you can do what you want to do in PI, versus Penn with graduation straight into doing what you want to do in PI. It is true Chicago would likely give you more slightly options. But it is hard to see that a year or two of really terrible quality of life in biglaw (given your career interests, not necessarily terrible quality of life for others) is worth it.

Even at Penn, OP would have $120,000 in debt.

If you want to do PI straight away, you'll be relying on the LRAP either way.

good point. OP should just pick whichever school OP likes more. the difference in debt can be overcome.

najumobi wrote:

scribelaw wrote:

sumus romani wrote:It seems that your basic options are Chicago with a year or two of biglaw to pay off your extra debt before you can do what you want to do in PI, versus Penn with graduation straight into doing what you want to do in PI. It is true Chicago would likely give you more slightly options. But it is hard to see that a year or two of really terrible quality of life in biglaw (given your career interests, not necessarily terrible quality of life for others) is worth it.

Even at Penn, OP would have $120,000 in debt.

If you want to do PI straight away, you'll be relying on the LRAP either way.

good point. OP should just pick whichever school OP likes more. the difference in debt can be overcome.

As an SA-less CLS 2L, I'm staring down unemployment and 190k debt. I would do anything to go back and re-make my decision. I wish I had taken money at DCNG instead of going sticker at CLS. I got an unpaid internship with a state agency this summer with no reasonable possibility of a permanent hire.

With an option like Penn + money, I would absolutely take Penn. The marginal advantage of hiring out of Chicago is miniscule at best.

jobless2Lguy wrote:

najumobi wrote:

scribelaw wrote:

sumus romani wrote:It seems that your basic options are Chicago with a year or two of biglaw to pay off your extra debt before you can do what you want to do in PI, versus Penn with graduation straight into doing what you want to do in PI. It is true Chicago would likely give you more slightly options. But it is hard to see that a year or two of really terrible quality of life in biglaw (given your career interests, not necessarily terrible quality of life for others) is worth it.

Even at Penn, OP would have $120,000 in debt.

If you want to do PI straight away, you'll be relying on the LRAP either way.

good point. OP should just pick whichever school OP likes more. the difference in debt can be overcome.

As an SA-less CLS 2L, I'm staring down unemployment and 190k debt. I would do anything to go back and re-make my decision. I wish I had taken money at DCNG instead of going sticker at CLS. I got an unpaid internship with a state agency this summer with no reasonable possibility of a permanent hire.

With an option like Penn + money, I would absolutely take Penn. The marginal advantage of hiring out of Chicago is miniscule at best.

hmmm i guess it's different when you're actually facing the possibility of not having a way to pay back loans. how much would you have owed if you went to DCNG? and would that debt load still be hard to deal with?

I would have owed around 130k. Still a lot, but much more manageable than 190k. The difference is paying 1900/month v. 1300/month post tax.

My goal now is to get a job that qualifies for LRAP. If I don't get an offer from the agency I'm working for this summer, I will just spam government and public interest, and also midlaw (although that is probably futile, from what I've heard).

jobless2Lguy wrote:I would have owed around 130k. Still a lot, but much more manageable than 190k. The difference is paying 1900/month v. 1300/month post tax.

My goal now is to get a job that qualifies for LRAP. If I don't get an offer from the agency I'm working for this summer, I will just spam government and public interest, and also midlaw (although that is probably futile, from what I've heard).

if you do get an offer, would you not also take advantage of IBR as well? that would limit your loan payments to under 500/month assuming you're making no more than 50k/yr.

najumobi wrote:

Core wrote:I posted about this in another thread, and everybody pretty much said Penn was the better choice, but I figure it can only help to get further insight.
I received a $78,000 award (mixture of a grant and a Dean's Scholarship) from Penn and absolutely nothing from Chicago. Negotiation with Chicago got me nowhere, save for a rude response from their financial aid dean. I am really enamored with Chicago, and Penn seems to be a step down, based on these boards and various rankings, so I don't know what to do - hence the creation of this thread. I have apps pending at CLS, HLS, and SLS, but I'd like to be able to decide between Penn and Chicago asap.
My ultimate goal is do get a government, nonprofit, or ngo job in NYC (D.C. is my second choice). I am not interested in Biglaw for the long term but am not opposed to doing it for a year or two directly after graduation. I am also somewhat interested in doing a clerkship after graduation.
Any insight would be much appreciated.

exactly what about chicago enamores?

The faculty, tiny class size, curriculum, amazing placement in just about everything, push for and assistance with publishing, and the quarter system.
$78,000 is just hard to turn down.

Chicago. Because I want your spot and $ at UP.

But in seriousness, take Penn. And Philly's a lot nicer than its rep would have you believe.

jobless2Lguy wrote:

najumobi wrote:

scribelaw wrote:

sumus romani wrote:It seems that your basic options are Chicago with a year or two of biglaw to pay off your extra debt before you can do what you want to do in PI, versus Penn with graduation straight into doing what you want to do in PI. It is true Chicago would likely give you more slightly options. But it is hard to see that a year or two of really terrible quality of life in biglaw (given your career interests, not necessarily terrible quality of life for others) is worth it.

Even at Penn, OP would have $120,000 in debt.

If you want to do PI straight away, you'll be relying on the LRAP either way.

good point. OP should just pick whichever school OP likes more. the difference in debt can be overcome.

As an SA-less CLS 2L, I'm staring down unemployment and 190k debt. I would do anything to go back and re-make my decision. I wish I had taken money at DCNG instead of going sticker at CLS. I got an unpaid internship with a state agency this summer with no reasonable possibility of a permanent hire.

With an option like Penn + money, I would absolutely take Penn. The marginal advantage of hiring out of Chicago is miniscule at best.

Sorry to hear about your situation. Thank you for the advice.

najumobi wrote:

scribelaw wrote:

sumus romani wrote:It seems that your basic options are Chicago with a year or two of biglaw to pay off your extra debt before you can do what you want to do in PI, versus Penn with graduation straight into doing what you want to do in PI. It is true Chicago would likely give you more slightly options. But it is hard to see that a year or two of really terrible quality of life in biglaw (given your career interests, not necessarily terrible quality of life for others) is worth it.

Even at Penn, OP would have $120,000 in debt.

If you want to do PI straight away, you'll be relying on the LRAP either way.

good point. OP should just pick whichever school OP likes more. the difference in debt can be overcome.

Sorry guys, but I just don't see it that way. Using LRAP or IBR in effect caps your earnings till you pay off the loan in full or you wait out the decade or more below the cap at the qualifying job type. The job market is bad (some don't find qualifying jobs for LRAP), and the extra $78,000 will just sit there accruing interest over time at around 7 percent, even for those who gain employment.

Nightrunner wrote:I knew Penn was going to win this poll, but I had no idea it would be such a landslide. It currently stands at 23-0.

Congrats on your great options, Core!

Chicago, even more hated by TLSers than Penn.

Core wrote:

najumobi wrote:

Core wrote:I posted about this in another thread, and everybody pretty much said Penn was the better choice, but I figure it can only help to get further insight.
I received a $78,000 award (mixture of a grant and a Dean's Scholarship) from Penn and absolutely nothing from Chicago. Negotiation with Chicago got me nowhere, save for a rude response from their financial aid dean. I am really enamored with Chicago, and Penn seems to be a step down, based on these boards and various rankings, so I don't know what to do - hence the creation of this thread. I have apps pending at CLS, HLS, and SLS, but I'd like to be able to decide between Penn and Chicago asap.
My ultimate goal is do get a government, nonprofit, or ngo job in NYC (D.C. is my second choice). I am not interested in Biglaw for the long term but am not opposed to doing it for a year or two directly after graduation. I am also somewhat interested in doing a clerkship after graduation.
Any insight would be much appreciated.

exactly what about chicago enamores?

The faculty, tiny class size, curriculum, amazing placement in just about everything, push for and assistance with publishing, and the quarter system.
$78,000 is just hard to turn down.

to be honest, if you're going to pay to be some place, you might as well make it some place where you whole-heartedly want to be. just make sure you the loans you take out can qualify for ibr and the job you take after law school can qualify for lrap.

Seventy-eight thousand dollars

APimpNamedSlickback wrote:Seventy-five thousand dollars

ha