Any Baylor Students out there?? Forum

[huskylives]

I think you have to be a certain type of person to like Baylor Law. A friend of mine is going there on a full ride. He was so excited about going to lawl skool beforehand. Ive talked to him recently and he said his life is hell. He hates Baylor with a passion. His classes are full of busy work and the students are straight mean, hide books, steal and throw-out peoples notes, lie about everything, etc. The job prospects are decent if you are ranked high in the class, but if you graduate in the bottom 50% you will have a very tuff time.

If you have a full ride and think you would like that atmosphere, go for it. I just cant understand working that hard for a degree that is worth so little.

I was looking into Baylor quite a bit, know a graduate, and asked her flat-out about the whole competitiveness thing. Basically, she said while there are some competitive people there, if you don't like that (and she didn't) its "pretty darn easy" to avoid them, as they are in the minority. More people she said tend to just work hard and then go out after finals to celebrate together. She never had any issues with getting notes/outlines from friends and people leave their books/notes/etc in the library and leave campus for lunch and nothing happens.

However, she also more or less confirmed the fact that Baylor makes you work harder than you have to. For example, the Socratic method is used very heavily in Baylor classes to pointless effect, though she admitted it made her show up prepared for every class. Practice Court, which all Baylor students are required to take in third year, is painful because she said they basically give you way more work than you have time for and, therefore, while most 3L students at law schools are tracking down jobs, you're suffering through hours of busy work to complete a class that no other school requires.

[kalvano]

go out after finals to celebrate together

Being Waco, they go and play horseshoes for a bit before going door-to-door to preach the good word.

[quetzalcoatl]

I think you have to be a certain type of person to like Baylor Law. A friend of mine is going there on a full ride. He was so excited about going to lawl skool beforehand. Ive talked to him recently and he said his life is hell. He hates Baylor with a passion. His classes are full of busy work and the students are straight mean, hide books, steal and throw-out peoples notes, lie about everything, etc. The job prospects are decent if you are ranked high in the class, but if you graduate in the bottom 50% you will have a very tuff time.

If you have a full ride and think you would like that atmosphere, go for it. I just cant understand working that hard for a degree that is worth so little.

I was looking into Baylor quite a bit, know a graduate, and asked her flat-out about the whole competitiveness thing. Basically, she said while there are some competitive people there, if you don't like that (and she didn't) its "pretty darn easy" to avoid them, as they are in the minority. More people she said tend to just work hard and then go out after finals to celebrate together. She never had any issues with getting notes/outlines from friends and people leave their books/notes/etc in the library and leave campus for lunch and nothing happens.

However, she also more or less confirmed the fact that Baylor makes you work harder than you have to. For example, the Socratic method is used very heavily in Baylor classes to pointless effect, though she admitted it made her show up prepared for every class. Practice Court, which all Baylor students are required to take in third year, is painful because she said they basically give you way more work than you have time for and, therefore, while most 3L students at law schools are tracking down jobs, you're suffering through hours of busy work to complete a class that no other school requires.

The stereotype of a Baylor UG student probably affects the way people view the law school. I know during high school the kids that studied multiple hours for a pointless quiz, went to youth group four times a week, graduated top of the class a year early, but scored 1050 on the SAT ended up at Baylor. Extremely hard working but not overly inteligent. I know there are tons of Baylor kids who are going to tell me Im wrong, which I probably am, but that is their reputation. This may be why the law school is seen as a gunner-filled, over competitive, hard labor camp.

If you are recieving some money, Baylor might be the right choice.

[patrickd139]

Full disclosure: Both my parents are Baylor Law grads. I don't like Baylor. I don't go to Baylor. What I've written below reflects a combo of both my former SO's comments and my experience that led me to turn down my scholarship to Baylor Law.

My former SO says she likes her friends, but hates everything about the school. The competition is palpable, professors are mediocre (they heavily hire their own), and practice court looms like a mushroom cloud over the entire experience. The poster above painted a perfect picture of how "PC" directly detracts from the job hunt. Plus, there are three sets of finals every year. Do not overestimate the effect this can have. SO was/is at the library when it opens and closes it out every day. If it's open, it's full of students, she said.
Bullet point: it's competitive and they overwork you all three years.

Re: the Baylor alumni network. Baylor grads are very loyal, but in no position to do anyone any favors. Mostly concentrated in the eastern part of the state (think Tyler, Lufkin, Longview, etc.), with a few in the major cities. Not being in a major market, Baylor grads are not in any way positioned to enter biglaw. The CSO will feed you lines like "We're perfectly positioned geographically to service all the major markets (Dallas, Austin, Houston, San Antonio, etc.)." It's a joke; like saying Texas Tech places well in DFW. Ask for the statistics. They (unsurprisingly) are extremely hesitant to give them to you; instead saying things like "You can do anything anywhere with a Baylor law degree, if you work hard enough to get there." While this is technically close to the truth, it's also incredibly misleading.
Bullet point: do not go to Baylor if you want biglaw.

Re: their ranking. It's declining, and nothing in the future points to reversing the trend.

Re: the "Baylor Image." There was a poster somewhere up there who mentioned that his/her contact had been exclusively through the student ambassador network. Expand your contacts. Now. They're not told to lie, but they're well-versed in spinning facts. Alternatively, go to an admitted students day and start asking hard questions. (What's the job placement like? Fed clerkships for anyone? Starting salaries? Workload for classes? What's it like having the library not open on Sundays until mid-afternoon and being closed during all the Christian holidays? etc.) Not one of them gave a non-coached answer. As a plus, the campus facilities are very nice.
Bullet point: ask real students who go there, not student ambassadors.

Re: Waco. The town's alright, but nothing special. I grew up in East Texas, so it was familiar. But if you're coming from ATL or Miami or Chicago, it can be more than a little uncomfortable for some people.
Bullet point: it's cheap, but there's nothing to do but study. Which is ok, because that's all you'll be doing anyway.

On the other hand, you have a full ride. This presumably means you're "above the curve" going in. If you're debt averse and don't mind dealing with the shortcomings, it might not be a terrible choice.

[txlaw2010]

I am a 3L at Baylor and will be graduating next month. I'd be happy to answer any questions anyone has about the school, practice court, the students, the professors, Waco, etc.

Just to set a few things straight. Baylor is competitive. This is mostly a function of its small size. There are 70 people in each entering class, and you get to know these people well. Inevitably, you'll find out who makes the best grades and who studies the hardest. This leads to an inherent competitiveness--you want to do as well as your peers. But, students are happy to share notes and outlines. Study groups are the norm. I've never heard of anyone having their books stolen or hiding library books. Students leave their stuff in the library for hours and hours and no one touches it.

It can be tough to get a Biglaw job coming out of Baylor, but not impossible. I know at least 10 from my class that have a big law job lined up. 10 of 70 or so is not bad at all. But yes, you'll have to be in the top 15% or so. You don't see the concentrations of Baylor grads in biglaw firms because they are spread out between Houston, Dallas, and Austin, and as I mentioned before, Baylor is much smaller than the other schools in the state.

You work hard at Baylor. Very hard. Especially in the third year (I'm in my last quarter, so that is over for me thankfully). I am not lying when I tell you that many (maybe even most) students during Practice Court in the third year averaged four hours of sleep a night. I went several nights with no sleep at all. It was hell. I thought it was not worth it. I have no doubt that I am better prepared for practice and to take the bar, but its not worth all the pain.

If you are going to be a trial attorney, Baylor is the place for you. If you have a full ride to Baylor (and not elsewhere), Baylor is the place for you.

Otherwise, if you got into SMU, UH, or UT you should go there. Baylor won't be worth the struggle.

[colemf]

I'm pretty set on being a prosecutor, do you have any idea about how well Baylor grads place in the Houston and Dallas DA's office? While i like the idea of being more prepared for trial than any other Texas school grad, do employers across the state, who have graduated from other Texas law schools, know about this preperation and hard work that Baylor grads go through? Because its all well and good to be more prepared, but if no one hires you whats the point?

[kalvano]

http://www.superlawyers.com/texas/Crimi ... ion/browse

It's not the best list I could find, but out of all the lawyers in the Dallas DA's office, 1 came from Baylor. The rest came from SMU.

I looked on LinkedIn and other places, and information is a little spotty, but the overwhelming majority come from SMU. It helps to actually live in the city and be able to get inter / externships and worth with the DA's office. You can't do that from Waco. I only saw the Baylor name once, which is pretty much what I expected. Interestingly, the Houston DA's office is dominated by UT grads.

I really can't stress this enough. For Texas, there are basically 3 schools that will get 90% of the jobs, and then the rest of the schools fight it out for what's left. You'd kill yourself at Baylor and still not have the same level of access that people from the other 3 schools have. I don't mind hard work, but to me, there better be a payoff at the end. It's all well and good to be able to say "I'm a great litigator from the best litigation school around, and I am the best prepared for my career", but it'll suck pretty hard when the less-prepared SMU grad get's the job you want because he was there during the semester volunteering and working an internship, etc.

[colemf]

Wow thank you for that link, do you think the fact that Baylor is just so small has some impact on the number of ADAs they produce? Could it be in fact that they do place well there just is not nearly as many of them?

[txlaw2010]

That's been my biggest complaint about Baylor. We work hard, we're more prepared for practice, but most lawyers out there don't know it, and it does not equal better access to jobs. It's frustrating.

As far as DA jobs, I have a handful of friends that interned over the summers, and a few that have soft offers (from what I understand, you can't get an offer from the DAs office until you pass the bar--I might be really far off base on this). Again, I think the lack of Baylor grads in the DA offices in Houston and Dallas has more to do with Baylor's small school and self-selection than it does with the offices not wanting to hire Baylor grads. Baylor grads are more willing to look for jobs all over the state, as opposed to just Houston (UH) or just Dallas (SMU). Thus, the concentration is smaller.

[kalvano]

Wow thank you for that link, do you think the fact that Baylor is just so small has some impact on the number of ADAs they produce? Could it be in fact that they do place well there just is not nearly as many of them?

No. I think the fact that Baylor is a 2nd-tier school in a state that has defined markets served by particular schools is why there are so few of them.

Baylor really isn't a good school. It used to be, but it has fallen way behind. So instead of trying to make it a better school, they cling to their mantra of "we turn out good litigators" and pray for the best.

It's all well and good to say you went to the best litigation program, but honestly, that won't mean shit when it comes time to get a job. SMU serves Dallas, UofH serves Houston, UT serves everywhere, Tech serves the barren wasteland known as the Panhandle, and all the other schools get to take whatever is left.

[txlaw2010]

Wow thank you for that link, do you think the fact that Baylor is just so small has some impact on the number of ADAs they produce? Could it be in fact that they do place well there just is not nearly as many of them?

No. I think the fact that Baylor is a 2nd-tier school in a state that has defined markets served by particular schools is why there are so few of them.

Baylor really isn't a good school. It used to be, but it has fallen way behind. So instead of trying to make it a better school, they cling to their mantra of "we turn out good litigators" and pray for the best.

It's all well and good to say you went to the best litigation program, but honestly, that won't mean shit when it comes time to get a job. SMU serves Dallas, UofH serves Houston, UT serves everywhere, Tech serves the barren wasteland known as the Panhandle, and all the other schools get to take whatever is left.

With all due respect, this is a student who is not yet in law school giving you his uneducated opinion. If you want to know about Baylor, ask a Baylor law student. I'm from Houston. Came to Baylor solely because I got a full ride. I worked hard, made pretty good grades, got 3 clerkships, and now I have a biglaw job lined up in Houston when I'm done. Firms hire from Baylor. While SMU, Houston, and Texas may have higher profiles, that doesn't mean that Baylor students have no chance. Baylor is well respected in Texas, just not to the extent it deserves.

[kalvano]

With all due respect, this is a student who is not yet in law school giving you his uneducated opinion. If you want to know about Baylor, ask a Baylor law student. I'm from Houston. Came to Baylor solely because I got a full ride. I worked hard, made pretty good grades, got 3 clerkships, and now I have a biglaw job lined up in Houston when I'm done. Firms hire from Baylor. While SMU, Houston, and Texas may have higher profiles, that doesn't mean that Baylor students have no chance. Baylor is well respected in Texas, just not to the extent it deserves.

This is a person who has lived in Texas all his life and has been thoroughly immersed in the Dallas legal market for all of it, as well. I'm very familiar with the market, probably more so than you. Shit, I spent half my time growing up hanging out at major Dallas firms. Do you think I would forgo one successful career career for law school without educating myself as totally as possible? I have access to tons of people in the Dallas area, both through my family and my job. I talked to plenty of Baylor students (current and past), and with 2 exceptions, all advised me to go elsewhere. Funny enough, it was also an opinion shared by most others,

I'm not saying you're totally boned if you go to Baylor. I'm saying that there are much better options that open a lot more doors. As someone said earlier, where there is smoke, there is fire. If you have other options, take them. If it's a choice between Texas Wesleyan and Baylor, then go to Baylor.

[colemf]

Txlaw2010, do you have any insight into the avaliablity of ADA jobs for Baylor grads. And i, like you, have a full scholly from Baylor, which is why they are at the top of my list, do you know anyone that has lost thier scholarship? Is Baylor strict about the 2.5 req.?

[patrickd139]

Txlaw2010, do you have any insight into the avaliablity of ADA jobs for Baylor grads. And i, like you, have a full scholly from Baylor, which is why they are at the top of my list, do you know anyone that has lost thier scholarship? Is Baylor strict about the 2.5 req.?

Per the admissions office, they overextended their scholarships and will be enforcing the provision strictly.

In addition, those with a sub 2.4 or 2.5 GPA (I don't remember which) are required to take 5 remedial courses from a menu of 7 courses before they graduate (Crim Pro II, Family Law, Bankruptcy, etc.). Rationale is pretty solid: Baylor has a stellar TX bar passage rate and students with sub-2.5(?) GPAs are the ones who are, statistically, most likely to fail the bar. Since those courses are all covered in depth on the Bar, it's legit to require them. The kicker: since they are menu courses, they are (like Practice Court and 1L course) graded on a strict curve. Given the relatively few courses you can take to "pad your GPA" at Baylor in the first place, this can be detrimental to your overall GPA.

Also telling about Baylor: all transcripts sent to potential employers include a letter from the academic dean in an attempt to explain why Baylor law students' GPA is so low in comparison to other law schools.

Not sure about the availability of ADA jobs for Baylor grads. I'm aware of at least one who is interning at the Harris County DA's office this summer, though.

[txlaw2010]

Baylor does tend to hand out a lot of scholarships, so I assume they are fairly strict on enforcing the GPA requirements. I know of one girl who was put on probation because of her grades. Not sure how it ended up (but she didn't drop out)--it's not something people tend to brag about. That being said, if you have a full scholarship, the chances are that you're GPA won't come close to dropping that low. Just work hard. Based on our 2L class ranks, only 15% of the students had a GPA lower than 2.5. I doubt many of them were on scholarship.

I don't know specific numbers about ADA jobs either. I know a few students that had internships last summer across the state, with good prospects of being hired on after they graduate. The Practice Court professors also are a great resource for ADA placements. They love to see their students trying cases and are very well connected.

[colemf]

Baylor does tend to hand out a lot of scholarships, so I assume they are fairly strict on enforcing the GPA requirements. I know of one girl who was put on probation because of her grades. Not sure how it ended up (but she didn't drop out)--it's not something people tend to brag about. That being said, if you have a full scholarship, the chances are that you're GPA won't come close to dropping that low. Just work hard. Based on our 2L class ranks, only 15% of the students had a GPA lower than 2.5. I doubt many of them were on scholarship.

I don't know specific numbers about ADA jobs either. I know a few students that had internships last summer across the state, with good prospects of being hired on after they graduate. The Practice Court professors also are a great resource for ADA placements. They love to see their students trying cases and are very well connected.

Thats what i wanted to hear.

[colemf]

Did Baylor recently change up its grading policy? I heard its a little looser now.

[kalvano]

While it's obviously your choice, you need to take a good, hard look at this.

1 ) For every 1 or 2 posters saying Baylor isn't that bad, there are 10 or 12 cautioning you against Baylor. Again, where there is smoke, there is fire.

2 ) It sounds like you want an ADA position. None of the major cities in Texas have a significant Baylor presence in those offices, if they have one at all.

3 ) Baylor admits to overextending scholarships and calculates that they will be able to rescind several.

4 ) When you should be out looking for a job and networking, you will instead be forced to participate in practice trial whether you want to or not.

5 ) You will have to take 36 credit hours more than other JD students.

6 ) You will get less breaks and have to take more exams.

7 ) Waco sucks. It's heavily, heavily religious, and you better hope you don't have a final around a Christian holiday, because you'll be shut out of the library.

8 ) It's the 4th-best law school in the state, behind other schools that dominate the state and their respective cities, so you're job prospects will be second fiddle to each of these schools.

9 ) Baylor has been steadily falling in the rankings and doing nothing to address it.





As I said, it's your choice, but there are an awful lot of negatives that go along with Baylor.

[Bustang]

While it's obviously your choice, you need to take a good, hard look at this.

1 ) For every 1 or 2 posters saying Baylor isn't that bad, there are 10 or 12 cautioning you against Baylor. Again, where there is smoke, there is fire.

2 ) It sounds like you want an ADA position. None if the major cities in Texas have a significant Baylor presence in those offices, if they have one at all.

3 ) Baylor admits to overextending scholarships and calculates that they will be able to rescind several.

4 ) When you should be out looking for a job and networking, you will instead be forced to participate in practice trial whether you want to or not.

5 ) You will have to take 36 credit hours more than other JD students.

6 ) You will get less breaks and have to take more exams.

7 ) Waco sucks. It's heavily, heavily religious, and you better hope you don't have a final around a Christian holiday, because you'll be shut out of the library.

8 ) It's the 4th-best law school in the state, behind other schools that dominate the state and their respective cities, so you're job prospects will be second fiddle to each of these schools.

9 ) Baylor has been steadily falling in the rankings and doing nothing to address it.





As I said, it's your choice, but there are an awful lot of negatives that go along with Baylor.

If I could give you a hug I would.

[kalvano]

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[txlaw2010]

Baylor has made an effort to overhaul their grading system. They changed the way GPA points are allocated, aim for a 3.0 median, and fail fewer students. However, Baylor's grading system is still much harder than all the other schools in the state. Top 10% is a 3.5. The easy way to get around this when you're applying for jobs is to list your class rank instead of your GPA on your resume. As someone else mentioned, a letter accompanies transcripts explaining why Baylor students' GPAs are lower compared to other schools.

Yes, there are a lot of reasons to hate Baylor. But now that I'm almost done, I'm glad I went. I have a great job and will graduate with no debt. Hard to beat that.

You said you're hoping to get an ADA job--those don't pay much. Consider how a huge amount of school debt will affect you once you graduate. I'd take the full scholarship at Baylor for sure.

[HBK]

You said you're hoping to get an ADA job--those don't pay much. Consider how a huge amount of school debt will affect you once you graduate. I'd take the full scholarship at Baylor for sure.

I'm pretty certain that prosecuting positions qualify for a number of LRAPs. Check with individual schools regarding their programs.

[kalvano]

You said you're hoping to get an ADA job--those don't pay much. Consider how a huge amount of school debt will affect you once you graduate. I'd take the full scholarship at Baylor for sure.

I'm pretty certain that prosecuting positions qualify for a number of LRAPs. Check with individual schools regarding their programs.

--LinkRemoved--

Harris County Assistant District Attorney – Starting Salary in 2007 $56,016

Dallas County Assistant District Attorney I – Average Salary $56068.08

Tarrant County Assistant District Attorney II – $53,505 – $58.855.94

Denton Country Assistant District Attorney II – $57, 780

That goes quite a ways in Texas.




And straight from the Dallas County webpage - sorry it sucks a bit.






Job Title Number of Employees Average Salary (Monthly) Minimum Salary (Monthly) Midpoint Salary (Monthly) Maximum Salary (Monthly)
Effective October 13, 2007
ATTORNEY
District Attorney First Assistant 1 $ 14,074.95 $ -- $ 15,000.00 $ 30,000.00
District Attorney Special Assistant 1 $ 11,843.71 $ 9,864.85 $ 12,336.50 $ 14,808.15
District Attorney Trial Bureau Chief 1 $ 11,963.70 $ -- $ 15,000.00 $ 30,000.00
Attorney I 25 $ 4,672.34 $ 4,481.92 $ 5,036.24 $ 5,590.55
Attorney II 32 $ 5,162.68 $ 4,712.62 $ 5,539.28 $ 6,365.94
Attorney III 54 $ 5,568.81 $ 5,186.83 $ 6,093.60 $ 7,000.36
Attorney IV 117 $ 6,725.12 $ 5,787.92 $ 7,092.64 $ 8,397.36
Attorney V 56 $ 8,319.75 $ 6,618.44 $ 8,269.84 $ 9,921.23
Attorney VI(Managing Attorney) 14 $ 9,776.52 $ 7,542.50 $ 9,425.24 $ 11,307.98
Attorney VII (Legal Division Director) 13 $ 10,993.50 $ 8,975.38 $ 11,215.71 $ 13,456.03

[colemf]

You said you're hoping to get an ADA job--those don't pay much. Consider how a huge amount of school debt will affect you once you graduate. I'd take the full scholarship at Baylor for sure.

I'm pretty certain that prosecuting positions qualify for a number of LRAPs. Check with individual schools regarding their programs.

--LinkRemoved--

Harris County Assistant District Attorney – Starting Salary in 2007 $56,016

Dallas County Assistant District Attorney I – Average Salary $56068.08

Tarrant County Assistant District Attorney II – $53,505 – $58.855.94

Denton Country Assistant District Attorney II – $57, 780

That goes quite a ways in Texas.




And straight from the Dallas County webpage - sorry it sucks a bit.






Job Title Number of Employees Average Salary (Monthly) Minimum Salary (Monthly) Midpoint Salary (Monthly) Maximum Salary (Monthly)
Effective October 13, 2007
ATTORNEY
District Attorney First Assistant 1 $ 14,074.95 $ -- $ 15,000.00 $ 30,000.00
District Attorney Special Assistant 1 $ 11,843.71 $ 9,864.85 $ 12,336.50 $ 14,808.15
District Attorney Trial Bureau Chief 1 $ 11,963.70 $ -- $ 15,000.00 $ 30,000.00
Attorney I 25 $ 4,672.34 $ 4,481.92 $ 5,036.24 $ 5,590.55
Attorney II 32 $ 5,162.68 $ 4,712.62 $ 5,539.28 $ 6,365.94
Attorney III 54 $ 5,568.81 $ 5,186.83 $ 6,093.60 $ 7,000.36
Attorney IV 117 $ 6,725.12 $ 5,787.92 $ 7,092.64 $ 8,397.36
Attorney V 56 $ 8,319.75 $ 6,618.44 $ 8,269.84 $ 9,921.23
Attorney VI(Managing Attorney) 14 $ 9,776.52 $ 7,542.50 $ 9,425.24 $ 11,307.98
Attorney VII (Legal Division Director) 13 $ 10,993.50 $ 8,975.38 $ 11,215.71 $ 13,456.03

No this is awesome, i've been looking for something like this for awhile.

[kalvano]

You can live pretty nicely on $5K - $6K a month in Texas, and should qualify for any LRAP available.

I just don't think Baylor is worth it for you. They have a non-existent presence in the major DA's offices.