Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker Forum

[Jay-Electronica]

Turning down the Hamilton for HYS is a decision that is in a totally different stratosphere than this one.

[EijiMiyake]

Turning down the Hamilton for HYS is a decision that is in a totally different stratosphere than this one.

por que?

[Chichaca]

If I was pretty sure that I wanted to spend my career in private practice (as you seem to be), then I'd take the $$$ at Cornell for sure.

I have dream-type scenarios that are possible to achieve but that I feel would be foolish to count on. I am interested in going the clerkship--->appellate lit in DC route. Or maybe trying to get into the DOJ honors program. As JKS289 indicates, CLS is going to better for this type of thing.

Based on this, I voted Columbia. I'm a big proponent of giving oneself a fighting chance at the dream scenario. It all depends on your aversion to risk, though.

Seriously, OP?

Cornell.

Why aren't these type of threads locked?

By that logic, they'd have to lock all of TLS... thus putting themselves out of business.

OMG....I have a dilemma between UVA for FREE or Columbia at sticker....which school should i go to?

Yeah, umm... that's like the whole point of this website. Love it or leave it.

[Jay-Electronica]

Turning down the Hamilton for HYS is a decision that is in a totally different stratosphere than this one.

por que?

Because the Holy Trinity are in a totally different stratosphere than all other law schools.

[scribelaw]

Seriously, OP?

Cornell.

Why aren't these type of threads locked?

By that logic, they'd have to lock all of TLS... thus putting themselves out of business.

OMG....I have a dilemma between UVA for FREE or Columbia at sticker....which school should i go to?

UVA isn't the same as Cornell.

Cornell places primarily in the same market as Columbia, and not nearly as well.

FWIW, I would take Columbia at sticker over $120k from Cornell. You'll still have to borrow ~$70-$80k at Cornell. With Columbia, you have pretty good odds at either getting a BigLaw job and being able to afford the loans or going into PI and taking advantage of Columbia's awesome LRAP.

At Cornell, you'll be third in line (at best) behind Columbia and NYU among NYC feeder schools. (Not to mention HYS, Chicago, MVP).

[Jules Winnfield]

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[EijiMiyake]

Turning down the Hamilton for HYS is a decision that is in a totally different stratosphere than this one.

por que?

Because the Holy Trinity are in a totally different stratosphere than all other law schools.

I think that's true of Y, but not of H/S. If you look at outcomes, the TOP of H does very prestigious things (as does the top of CLS), and the bottom is protected. The MIDDLE of the class ends up in very similar places as CLS (or at least used to, before ITE.) I think HLS is definitely better than CLS, but I think the "different stratosphere" thing is only true outside of the legal field.

I'm much less familiar with Stanford, so I can't comment.

I do think, however, that the difference between HLS and CLS is smaller than the difference between CLS and Cornell.

[Jay-Electronica]

Seriously, OP?

Cornell.

Why aren't these type of threads locked?

By that logic, they'd have to lock all of TLS... thus putting themselves out of business.

OMG....I have a dilemma between UVA for FREE or Columbia at sticker....which school should i go to?

UVA isn't the same as Cornell.

Cornell places primarily in the same market as Columbia, and not nearly as well.

FWIW, I would take Columbia at sticker over $120k from Cornell. You'll still have to borrow ~$70-$80k at Cornell. With Columbia, you have pretty good odds at either getting a BigLaw job and being able to afford the loans or going into PI and taking advantage of Columbia's awesome LRAP.

At Cornell, you'll be third in line (at best) behind Columbia and NYU among NYC feeder schools. (Not to mention HYS, Chicago, MVP).

OP will not have to borrow any money, his COL is covered. He will be graduating debt free if he were to chose Cornell.

Furthermore, he isnt exactly sure what he wants to do, although he has a good idea. I would wager that during law school he will have a more refined idea of his goals. If he goes to Columbia he will not have the liberty to choose because he will be in Biglaw or bust mode. Taking the money at cornell means no HUGE student loan payment every month for the next 20 years and being able to choose what he wants to do.

[imchuckbass58]

Turning down the Hamilton for HYS is a decision that is in a totally different stratosphere than this one.

por que?

Because the Holy Trinity are in a totally different stratosphere than all other law schools.

No, they're really not.

The difference between Columbia and HYS for almost all purposes (excluding clerkships and academia) is much smaller than the difference between Cornell and Columbia. For NYC biglaw, there's not even really a practical difference between HS and Columbia.

Contrast that with Cornell, where Columbia places roughly twice as well into the same primary market (http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html - I know these are old stats, but no reason to think the relative position has narrowed that much).

OP, I second what other posters said as far as doing everything you can to get some money from Columbia - your numbers are pretty incredible. Either way I don't think you can make a bad choice.

[Jay-Electronica]

Turning down the Hamilton for HYS is a decision that is in a totally different stratosphere than this one.

por que?

Because the Holy Trinity are in a totally different stratosphere than all other law schools.

I think that's true of Y, but not of H/S. If you look at outcomes, the TOP of H does very prestigious things (as does the top of CLS), and the bottom is protected. The MIDDLE of the class ends up in very similar places as CLS (or at least used to, before ITE.) I think HLS is definitely better than CLS, but I think the "different stratosphere" thing is only true outside of the legal field.

I'm much less familiar with Stanford, so I can't comment.

I do think, however, that the difference between HLS and CLS is smaller than the difference between CLS and Cornell.

Care to explain??? I dont have any opinions on any perceived gap between them, but there isnt a big enough difference between Cornell and CLS to go from graduating debt free to going 200-250K into debt. If the decision was cornell or HYS then it would be a different story.

IMO If H had a smaller class size it would probably be the objective #1 every year.

[scribelaw]

OP will not have to borrow any money, his COL is covered. He will be graduating debt free if he were to chose Cornell.

Furthermore, he isnt exactly sure what he wants to do, although he has a good idea. I would wager that during law school he will have a more refined idea of his goals. If he goes to Columbia he will not have the liberty to choose because he will be in Biglaw or bust mode. Taking the money at cornell means no HUGE student loan payment every month for the next 20 years and being able to choose what he wants to do.

RC fail.

I didn't see he wouldn't have to borrow anything. That makes a big difference.

You are right in the sense that if you do Columbia and borrow $200,000, you'll have to either go BigLaw or get a PI job and use the LRAP. No middle options.

I still ask you, though, ITE -- would you rather be a median student at Columbia or a median student at Cornell?

[imchuckbass58]

I seriously doubt that you need TLS to make an informed situation on this particular "dilemma".

I think it behooves OP to go to the IVY league law school which is offering a FULL RIDE in stead of paying sticker at another IVY in the same state.

They are both in the T14. I really don't see the big difference between going to Cornell vs. Columbia (separated by 9 spots). This reeks of prestige whoring. I'm sorry but it does.

Who the hell cares whether it's an ivy league school? The whole aura of prestige around the ivy league really only applies to undergrad, not law school. In legal circles nobody really cares that cornell is an ivy league school - they'd much prefer someone from Chicago or Stanford.

There is a pretty large difference between Columbia and Cornell. Columbia both during the boom and now is placing roughly double the percentage of the class into biglaw. Also, while it's not HYS, Columbia is one of the few schools that can semi-consistently place its grads into top clerkships and academia. Not so for Cornell.

ITE, median at Cornell is effectively shut out of biglaw. Median at Columbia is still getting it for the most part.

I'm not saying Columbia is the obvious choice here, but I think it's a much closer call than people are making it out to be.

In my opinion, OP, the more "prestigious" a career you're aiming for, the more the factors weigh in favor of CLS. If you're aiming to going back to a secondary market where you're from, by all means to take the money and run. If you want any shot at prestigious gov't/clerkships/biglaw, Columbia will serve you better. For context:

2x the prestigious biglaw placement: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

5x law teaching placement: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml

18 SCOTUS clerks versus 1 in the last 8 years: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000 ... erks.shtml

[keg411]

Cornell. COL is way way way cheaper too. CLS is great, but when you get an option like this you TTMAR. Especially when you have IP in your pocket.

[EijiMiyake]

Care to explain??? I dont have any opinions on any perceived gap between them, but there isnt a big enough difference between Cornell and CLS to go from graduating debt free to going 200-250K into debt. If the decision was cornell or HYS then it would be a different story.

IMO If H had a smaller class size it would probably be the objective #1 every year.

But it doesn't. I'm basing my opinion on placement rates into elite firms (Leiter), NLJ250, Clerkships, and Academia, and conversations that I've had with alums at both places. I am not disputing that HLS is better than CLS. I'm just saying that to do very elite things, you need to be elite at both HLS and CLS. As one poster mentioned, median at HLS was never getting COA clerkships or DOJ Honors.

Edit: And obviously, Cornell is still a very good school. It's just that placement rates lead me to believe that there is a bigger gap between Cornell and CLS, than CLS and HLS.

[Jay-Electronica]

I seriously doubt that you need TLS to make an informed situation on this particular "dilemma".

I think it behooves OP to go to the IVY league law school which is offering a FULL RIDE in stead of paying sticker at another IVY in the same state.

They are both in the T14. I really don't see the big difference between going to Cornell vs. Columbia (separated by 9 spots). This reeks of prestige whoring. I'm sorry but it does.

Who the hell cares whether it's an ivy league school? The whole aura of prestige around the ivy league really only applies to undergrad, not law school. In legal circles nobody really cares that cornell is an ivy league school - they'd much prefer someone from Chicago or Stanford.

There is a pretty large difference between Columbia and Cornell. Columbia both during the boom and now is placing roughly double the percentage of the class into biglaw. Also, while it's not HYS, Columbia is one of the few schools that can semi-consistently place its grads into top clerkships and academia. Not so for Cornell.

ITE, median at Cornell is effectively shut out of biglaw. Median at Columbia is still getting it for the most part.

I'm not saying Columbia is the obvious choice here, but I think it's a much closer call than people are making it out to be.

At sticker for both, I agree. However Debt Free Vs. 200-250k n debt.

Debt like that is nothing to sneeze at.

[Dignan]

At sticker for both, I agree. However Debt Free Vs. 200-250k n debt.

Keep in mind that Cornell would be debt free for me because I've got some money saved up after years of working. That $40K/yr at Cornell does not cover full tuition (which will be $51K next year) or the COL in Ithica.

I'd have $120K-$130K of debt coming out of Columbia. That's nothing to sneeze at, but it's not close to $250K.

[Dignan]

I would give Columbia a chance to throw some money at you before making a final decision. Your numbers are high even for Columbia. So email finaid or admissions at Columbia and tell them what your offer at Cornell is and that you would prefer to go to Columbia. Let them know your deadline date too. If they do not give you anything, then graduate debt free from Cornell! Have fun NOT paying a 2k per month student loan bill.

Thanks for this advice. I just assumed that CLS would laugh off a Cornell offer. CLS claims that it only offers need-based grants, with the exceptions of the Hamiltons and Butlers it hands out with the initial acceptances. Is this not true? Does CLS, despite claiming otherwise, take merit into consideration?

Some $$ from CLS--even just $40K or $50K--would probably make this decision easier.

[Jules Winnfield]

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[AngryAvocado]

I see where Jules is coming from, and I don't think there's a wrong answer in this scenario, but I'd go with Columbia. Here are the reasons:

1) You're already in a better financial position than most having saved up a good chunk of change
2) There's something to be said for being the top dog in the country's largest legal market. Cornell falls behind CLS, NYU, probably several other T10 schools, and isn't particularly strong outside of NYC.
3) I keep hearing the same thing from successful lawyers (referring to top schools--they say don't even bother with crap schools right now): If there's more than a marginal difference, go to the best school you get into. 120k debt is no joke, but it pales in comparison to career earnings--and the name of your school, regardless of what people say, is something that sticks with you.

Like I said, though, you can't really go wrong. This is just my personal opinion.

[fortissimo]

Columbia was my "dream" school when I applied so I understand the difficulty in turning it down, but Cornell is giving you a shit load of money. I'd go to Cornell. While Columbia does open more doors for you, if you are debt free after law school you have much, much more leeway in pursuing a job post-graduation. You wouldn't need to be locked into biglaw or a job that you hate just to pay off loans.

[im_blue]

I seriously doubt that you need TLS to make an informed situation on this particular "dilemma".

I think it behooves OP to go to the IVY league law school which is offering a FULL RIDE in stead of paying sticker at another IVY in the same state.

They are both in the T14. I really don't see the big difference between going to Cornell vs. Columbia (separated by 9 spots). This reeks of prestige whoring. I'm sorry but it does.

Who the hell cares whether it's an ivy league school? The whole aura of prestige around the ivy league really only applies to undergrad, not law school. In legal circles nobody really cares that cornell is an ivy league school - they'd much prefer someone from Chicago or Stanford.

There is a pretty large difference between Columbia and Cornell. Columbia both during the boom and now is placing roughly double the percentage of the class into biglaw. Also, while it's not HYS, Columbia is one of the few schools that can semi-consistently place its grads into top clerkships and academia. Not so for Cornell.

ITE, median at Cornell is effectively shut out of biglaw. Median at Columbia is still getting it for the most part.

I'm not saying Columbia is the obvious choice here, but I think it's a much closer call than people are making it out to be.

In my opinion, OP, the more "prestigious" a career you're aiming for, the more the factors weigh in favor of CLS. If you're aiming to going back to a secondary market where you're from, by all means to take the money and run. If you want any shot at prestigious gov't/clerkships/biglaw, Columbia will serve you better. For context:

2x the prestigious biglaw placement: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

5x law teaching placement: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml

18 SCOTUS clerks versus 1 in the last 8 years: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000 ... erks.shtml

I see where Jules is coming from, and I don't think there's a wrong answer in this scenario, but I'd go with Columbia. Here are the reasons:

1) You're already in a better financial position than most having saved up a good chunk of change
2) There's something to be said for being the top dog in the country's largest legal market. Cornell falls behind CLS, NYU, probably several other T10 schools, and isn't particularly strong outside of NYC.
3) I keep hearing the same thing from successful lawyers (referring to top schools--they say don't even bother with crap schools right now): If there's more than a marginal difference, go to the best school you get into. 120k debt is no joke, but it pales in comparison to career earnings--and the name of your school, regardless of what people say, is something that sticks with you.

Like I said, though, you can't really go wrong. This is just my personal opinion.

+1. Columbia is worth an extra $120k IMHO, especially for the top jobs.

[of Benito Cereno]

I would give Columbia a chance to throw some money at you before making a final decision. Your numbers are high even for Columbia. So email finaid or admissions at Columbia and tell them what your offer at Cornell is and that you would prefer to go to Columbia. Let them know your deadline date too. If they do not give you anything, then graduate debt free from Cornell! Have fun NOT paying a 2k per month student loan bill.

Thanks for this advice. I just assumed that CLS would laugh off a Cornell offer. CLS claims that it only offers need-based grants, with the exceptions of the Hamiltons and Butlers it hands out with the initial acceptances. Is this not true? Does CLS, despite claiming otherwise, take merit into consideration?

Some $$ from CLS--even just $40K or $50K--would probably make this decision easier.

Honestly, just run with the free ride. Coming out of Cornell still leaves you with plenty of options, BIGLAW or not. And the fact that you'd be having no doubt would allow you to pursue a legal field which actually suits your interest/strengths as opposed to searching for a job that'll help you repay your loans.

Just take the free ride.

what makes you think thats true? at least among the new york law partners I know cornell is not very well respected at all. Its basically seen as decent but not in the same universe as cls or nyu. anyways, what are these super interesting options supposedly open to cornell grads without debt. a cornell grad at median right now is basically trapped in the north east and closed out of the nyc biglaw market. its not like if you strike out at OCI there are a million clerkships, academic posts, governmental postions, or worthwhile PI jobs lying open for the taking to median cornell grads. You can keep saying "come on, its Cornell and its free." But in all fairness I think you're really overplaying how special or impressive cornell is.

[Z3RO]

I voted for Columbia, but I want you to go with Cornell so that I can get into Columbia. I suspect that is Jules' agenda as well.

[Jay-Electronica]

what makes you think thats true? at least among the new york law partners I know cornell is not very well respected at all. Its basically seen as decent but not in the same universe as cls or nyu. anyways, what are these super interesting options supposedly open to cornell grads without debt. a cornell grad at median right now is basically trapped in the north east and closed out of the nyc biglaw market. its not like if you strike out at OCI there are a million clerkships, academic posts, governmental postions, or worthwhile PI jobs lying open for the taking to median cornell grads. You can keep saying "come on, its Cornell and its free." But in all fairness I think you're really overplaying how special or impressive cornell is.

Cmon Son!! I know you can see the flaw in your reasoning.

[Jules Winnfield]

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