Top Law Schools

From Brian Leiter:

http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... oming.html

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I like how Chicago is number 3, where it belongs on all of the rankings : )

Northwestern had a good showing, especially considering NU takes an unusual approach with having a lot of PhD folks instead of lawyers.

Apparently, NU has better BigLaw placement and a stronger faculty than MVP?

Seems that Irvine has a tremendous faculty, WOW! I was not aware

Will Leiter ease up a bit on the NU trolling now?

In all seriousness, I do kind of like Leiter's methodology. Using something measurable like citations instead of just doing a survey of peoples' opinions.

rayiner wrote:Will Leiter ease up a bit on the NU trolling now?

In all seriousness, I do kind of like Leiter's methodology. Using something measurable like citations instead of just doing a survey of peoples' opinions.

i don't get what people's problem with judge and lawyer ranking is. isn't that what ultimately gets you a job or clerkship? no employer says "oh, let's see...wow, irvine has the 9th best faculty, as measured by scholarly impact, so i'll take you." but their perception of your school does affect how likely they are to hire you.

and by the way, any ranking that puts Florida State University at 23 is very suspect.

86revolt wrote:

rayiner wrote:Will Leiter ease up a bit on the NU trolling now?

In all seriousness, I do kind of like Leiter's methodology. Using something measurable like citations instead of just doing a survey of peoples' opinions.

i don't get what people's problem with judge and lawyer ranking is. isn't that what ultimately gets you a job or clerkship? no employer says "oh, let's see...wow, irvine has the 9th best faculty, as measured by scholarly impact, so i'll take you." but their perception of your school does affect how likely they are to hire you.

and by the way, any ranking that puts Florida State University at 23 is very suspect.

Leiter's believes the judge/lawyer rep scores are unreliable because of their low response rate.

Ideally the quality of the faculty should be a big factor in determining a school's reputation and how employers view the school and its students, making them a measure of essentially the same thing. Of course, real world results may vary.

I mean personally I think the academic ranking is pretty irrelevant, while the lawyer/judge ranking, while potentially useful, is extremely flawed. The lawyer/judge ranking has a very low response rate (~30%) and is potentially geographically-biased. Where are the lawyers/judges being surveyed? Are they in the same regions where grads are seeking work? For a school like, say, BC, where everyone goes into the Boston market, are the opinions of judges/lawyers in, say, DC, really relevant to hiring?

Leiter suggests that Epstein is split between Chicago and NYU. But isn't he at NYU fulltime now? Lots of sources suggest this. If so, NYU should get all of his citations, which is a lot, since he is one of Chicago's stars (well, now NYU's).

Edited for typo.

sumus romani wrote:Leiter suggests that Epstein is split between Chicago and NYU. But isn't he at NYU fulltime now? Lots of sources suggest this. If so, NYU should get all of his citations, which is a lot, since he is one of Chicago's stars (well, now NYU's).

Edited for typo.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/ECM_PRO_059743

Fall 2010.

Also, rather embarrassingly, I misread Leiter's methodology. Epstein's cite's are credited in full to both! Thanks for the heads up!

FlightoftheEarls wrote:

sumus romani wrote:Leiter suggests that Epstein is split between Chicago and NYU. But isn't he at NYU fulltime now? Lots of sources suggest this. If so, NYU should get all of his citations, which is a lot, since he is one of Chicago's stars (well, now NYU's).

Edited for typo.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/ECM_PRO_059743

Fall 2010.

86revolt wrote:

rayiner wrote:Will Leiter ease up a bit on the NU trolling now?

In all seriousness, I do kind of like Leiter's methodology. Using something measurable like citations instead of just doing a survey of peoples' opinions.

i don't get what people's problem with judge and lawyer ranking is. isn't that what ultimately gets you a job or clerkship? no employer says "oh, let's see...wow, irvine has the 9th best faculty, as measured by scholarly impact, so i'll take you." but their perception of your school does affect how likely they are to hire you.

and by the way, any ranking that puts Florida State University at 23 is very suspect.

+1

86revolt wrote:

rayiner wrote:Will Leiter ease up a bit on the NU trolling now?

In all seriousness, I do kind of like Leiter's methodology. Using something measurable like citations instead of just doing a survey of peoples' opinions.

i don't get what people's problem with judge and lawyer ranking is. isn't that what ultimately gets you a job or clerkship? no employer says "oh, let's see...wow, irvine has the 9th best faculty, as measured by scholarly impact, so i'll take you." but their perception of your school does affect how likely they are to hire you.

and by the way, any ranking that puts Florida State University at 23 is very suspect.

This ranking system is based on faculty scholarly impact. No offense intended by any means, but do you actually know anything about FSU's faculty? I, for one, know nothing about FSU but I'm sure Brian Leiter knows more than anyone on TLS about law school faculties.

With regard to US News' assessment by lawyers/judges... No, it's not what ultimately lands you a job. Not only are very few lawyers/judges surveyed, but very few of those surveyed actually respond. It's infinitely more useful and insightful to personally speak to lawyers (small firm, big firm, whatever) in the region(s) that you want to work. We already know more or less which schools qualify as "national," so no need to rely on US News for that.

ViP wrote:

86revolt wrote:

rayiner wrote:Will Leiter ease up a bit on the NU trolling now?

In all seriousness, I do kind of like Leiter's methodology. Using something measurable like citations instead of just doing a survey of peoples' opinions.

i don't get what people's problem with judge and lawyer ranking is. isn't that what ultimately gets you a job or clerkship? no employer says "oh, let's see...wow, irvine has the 9th best faculty, as measured by scholarly impact, so i'll take you." but their perception of your school does affect how likely they are to hire you.

and by the way, any ranking that puts Florida State University at 23 is very suspect.

This ranking system is based on faculty scholarly impact. No offense intended by any means, but do you actually know anything about FSU's faculty? I, for one, know nothing about FSU but I'm sure Brian Leiter knows more than anyone on TLS about law school faculties.

With regard to US News' assessment by lawyers/judges... No, it's not what ultimately lands you a job. Not only are very few lawyers/judges surveyed, but very few of those surveyed actually respond. It's infinitely more useful and insightful to personally speak to lawyers (small firm, big firm, whatever) in the region(s) that you want to work. We already know more or less which schools qualify as "national," so no need to rely on US News for that.

ultimately, i don't think we should rely on ranking in general, whether it be usnwr or leiter. but IF we have to rank law schools based on some arbitrary measure, i think the opinion of lawyers/judges is a better criterion than scholarly impact of the faculty. while the way that usnwr surveys the opinion of judges and lawyers is problematic, i don't think that's so much an argument against the method as it is to improve it. i agree with an earlier poster that the prestige of a school in its region should matter while also taking into account its national prestige.

ViP wrote:
This ranking system is based on faculty scholarly impact. No offense intended by any means, but do you actually know anything about FSU's faculty? I, for one, know nothing about FSU but I'm sure Brian Leiter knows more than anyone on TLS about law school faculties.

Srsly. The amount of semen spilled over US News by TLS could fill Lake Michigan.

Anyway

Vandy at #10. I wasn't really considering Vandy that seriously.... then I got a scholly offer and saw their NJL250 placement and now this..... I'm going to Nashville in a couple weeks and the weather will probably be 62 and sunny and I'll have the best meal of my life at some awesome restaurant and then I'll just have to sack up and send in my deposit.

Edit: That paragraph makes it sound like I was leaning toward a T14. I didn't get into any. I was leaning toward GW until a couple weeks ago. It's down to those two.