Top Law Schools

Now, before all you cynics start shouting "flame", try to understand the dynamics of my situation.

1) I'm an out of state resident not expecting to receive scholarship money from Texas as it was a reach
2) I'm receiving a full ride to Baylor
3) My family will be unable to contribute any money/I'm completely on my own
4) I'm about 40k in the hole from undergrad (private university)
5) I think I want to do litigation/trial law
6) I'm super debt-averse

It's always been my dream to go to Texas, and it feels surreal to actually be accepted. However, considering the current market, I don't know if I can justify going that far into debt. My biggest concern is not being able to pay the debt once I'm finished. Do UT grads normally worry about this? I know Baylor is a good school, but how do you compare #65 to #15? Does the fact that Baylor is nationally ranked in trial advocacy mean anything? If so, maybe it's the better choice. What do you guys think? Any suggestions on the debt situation?

I don't want to be the d-bag who asks this question but has already made up his mind (you guys all know who I'm talking about). I have not yet made a decision, and I genuinely need advice.

I appreciate the responses!!!

well if your debt adverse and plan on going into trial law i would say Baylor is the correct choice in this one instance, assuming of course you want to stay in Texas(Baylor has a great rep. in Texas) and Baylor has given you a full ride.

I would never advise anyone to go to Baylor. Have you been to Waco? Yuck. I would also advise against paying sticker at UT. I know that doesn't answer your question OP, but I think law school at sticker price is a huge rip off. I feel that way about every school except Yale. At every other school, you're taking a huge gamble on where you will place in your class. My experience at UT suggests that top grades are not enough to guarantee big law. I feel like I took a poor gamble, and I'm on a full scholarship and at the top of my class. I have gone from loving law school to absolutely hating it because of job market. I honestly just want to get this over with so I can think of something else to do with my life.

JazzOne wrote:I would never advise anyone to go to Baylor. Have you been to Waco? Yuck. I would also advise against paying sticker at UT. I know that doesn't answer your question OP, but I think law school at sticker price is a huge rip off. I feel that way about every school except Yale. At every other school, you're taking a huge gamble on where you will place in your class. My experience at UT suggests that top grades are not enough to guarantee big law. I feel like I took a poor gamble, and I'm on a full scholarship and at the top of my class.

This

Full tuition, or full tuition + COL stipend? Because if all that's covered is tuition, you'll likely double your current debt with COL. It would be $200k debt vs $80k debt. If you do well at Baylor, and get a six figure job, that would probably have been the best choice. But if you can't get that job, $80k is still a ton, and you'll likely be sorry you didn't choose UT. Something to think about...

It's only full tuition at Baylor. A living stipend was not offered. I really didn't even think about COL, but I imagine it's significantly lower in Waco.

Also, Baylor has a 2.5 GPA requirement...don't know if this changes anything. I hear the competition is pretty hardcore.

JazzOne wrote: My experience at UT suggests that top grades are not enough to guarantee big law. I feel like I took a poor gamble, and I'm on a full scholarship and at the top of my class. I have gone from loving law school to absolutely hating it because of job market. I honestly just want to get this over with so I can think of something else to do with my life.

I don't post much, but if I recall you're a 1L? If so what are you stressing about? Great grades have never = 1L big firm summer, not unless you had an "in." The handful of people I know with a 1L summer gig lined up have some combination of good grades + a connection to the firm (worked there in the past, have family there etc).

Top grades were never enough to guarantee a 1L biglaw job, not even at yale/harvard/stanford. What made you think things were going to be different in a recession? You'll be fine come fall recruiting (for 2L summer).


If you're a 2L, well, you're probably right.


EDIT: Have you tried martindale searches for attorney's who went to the same UG as you? Or who went to UT law but practice out of state (somewhere you would be OK with this summer)? Email the attorneys (the ones at smaller firms) and get a dialogue going. Slide in you're looking for summer work, not looking to get paid, and want to live in "city x" this summer. I've had much more success getting interviews/offers from smaller firms as opposed to the larger ones. Maybe it's worth a shot?

Walter Sobchak wrote:

JazzOne wrote: My experience at UT suggests that top grades are not enough to guarantee big law. I feel like I took a poor gamble, and I'm on a full scholarship and at the top of my class. I have gone from loving law school to absolutely hating it because of job market. I honestly just want to get this over with so I can think of something else to do with my life.

I don't post much, but if I recall you're a 1L? If so what are you stressing about? Great grades have never = 1L big firm summer, not unless you had an "in." The handful of people I know with a 1L summer gig lined up have some combination of good grades + a connection to the firm (worked there in the past, have family there etc).

Top grades were never enough to guarantee a 1L biglaw job, not even at yale/harvard/stanford. What made you think things were going to be different in a recession? You'll be fine come fall recruiting (for 2L summer).


If you're a 2L, well, you're probably right.


EDIT: Have you tried martindale searches for attorney's who went to the same UG as you? Or who went to UT law but practice out of state (somewhere you would be OK with this summer)? Email the attorneys (the ones at smaller firms) and get a dialogue going. Slide in you're looking for summer work, not looking to get paid, and want to live in "city x" this summer. I've had much more success getting interviews/offers from smaller firms as opposed to the larger ones. Maybe it's worth a shot?

He's a 1L. Have no idea what he's talking about when no 1L paying job -> no longer desire to work in law. Even HYS students don't have good 1L summer employment.

So what's the consensus about taking out loans for a school like Texas. 1L Summers opportunities aside, and assuming (hoping) I'm in the top 50% of the class, is there any need to worry about paying back loans?

As I recall, the GPA requirement and brutal curve at Baylor means there is a very significant chance that you will lose your scholly after the first year. Also, Baylor is not very well respected, and places far behind UT, SMU, and UH in Texas. Not a good situation at all.

UT will give much better chances, but its impossible to predict with accuracy what grades you will need for a Biglaw job at your year's OCI. Pre-this economy, top 50% was a shoe-in for market salary. Right now, we have no idea what will happen at OCI, but several of my classmates have 1L Biglaw gigs, so the early signs are that our OCI will be better than the hell the Class of 2011 went through.

Esc wrote:As I recall, the GPA requirement and brutal curve at Baylor means there is a very significant chance that you will lose your scholly after the first year. Also, Baylor is not very well respected, and places far behind UT, SMU, and UH in Texas. Not a good situation at all.

UT will give much better chances, but its impossible to predict with accuracy what grades you will need for a Biglaw job at your year's OCI. Pre-this economy, top 50% was a shoe-in for market salary. Right now, we have no idea what will happen at OCI, but several of my classmates have 1L Biglaw gigs, so the early signs are that our OCI will be better than the hell the Class of 2011 went through.

Well, that does give me a glimmer of hope. If you're right about the respectability of Baylor, UT definitely seems likes the better option in this market to secure any good employment, even if not Biglaw. So maybe paying back loans would be easier for UT anyway? idk, but I'm thinking...

M_F_F_L wrote:

Esc wrote:As I recall, the GPA requirement and brutal curve at Baylor means there is a very significant chance that you will lose your scholly after the first year. Also, Baylor is not very well respected, and places far behind UT, SMU, and UH in Texas. Not a good situation at all.

UT will give much better chances, but its impossible to predict with accuracy what grades you will need for a Biglaw job at your year's OCI. Pre-this economy, top 50% was a shoe-in for market salary. Right now, we have no idea what will happen at OCI, but several of my classmates have 1L Biglaw gigs, so the early signs are that our OCI will be better than the hell the Class of 2011 went through.

Well, that does give me a glimmer of hope. If you're right about the respectability of Baylor, UT definitely seems likes the better option in this market to secure any good employment, even if not Biglaw. So maybe paying back loans would be easier for UT anyway? idk, but I'm thinking...

While Esc is extremely biased (note the longhorn tar), the bolded above is def true. UT is probably the best choice for you in this situation.

UT for sure. Austin is an amazing city to live in... Waco they are all about dunking you in the water to save you. A full ride is difficult to turn down but if it were me I'd choose UT because it's a much better school and I'd be miserable in Waco.

Na_Swatch wrote:

M_F_F_L wrote:

Esc wrote:As I recall, the GPA requirement and brutal curve at Baylor means there is a very significant chance that you will lose your scholly after the first year. Also, Baylor is not very well respected, and places far behind UT, SMU, and UH in Texas. Not a good situation at all.

UT will give much better chances, but its impossible to predict with accuracy what grades you will need for a Biglaw job at your year's OCI. Pre-this economy, top 50% was a shoe-in for market salary. Right now, we have no idea what will happen at OCI, but several of my classmates have 1L Biglaw gigs, so the early signs are that our OCI will be better than the hell the Class of 2011 went through.

Well, that does give me a glimmer of hope. If you're right about the respectability of Baylor, UT definitely seems likes the better option in this market to secure any good employment, even if not Biglaw. So maybe paying back loans would be easier for UT anyway? idk, but I'm thinking...

While Esc is extremely biased (note the longhorn tar), the bolded above is def true. UT is probably the best choice for you in this situation.

I'm not sure where you get the impression that I'm biased. I do not hide the fact that I'm a UT student, nor do I let that fact color my advice.

Even though UT is a TTT in decline according to the Daily Texan (just havin' a little fun with you, Esc), totally go live the dream. Congrats on getting into Texas.

UT, no question.

TipTravHoot wrote:Even though UT is a TTT in decline according to the Daily Texan (just havin' a little fun with you, Esc), totally go live the dream. Congrats on getting into Texas.

The Daily TTTexan

Esc wrote:The Daily TTTexan

+1...million.

I will turn down the full ride at Baylor with you, OP! Let's live the dream HOOK 'EM!!!

Here's the deal OP, if you are person that seeks to minimize maximum risk, then you'll be going to Baylor. The absolute worst scenario is that you go to Texas, have an average to poor performance, and get no job. You'll come out of school unemployed and over $200K in debt (includes current debt). Forget living the dream, you'll be living a nightmare at that point. The worst that can happen at Baylor is no job, but with significantly lower debt.

On the other hand, you can take a gamble and go for UT. Hopefully you do well, network with the right people, and secure your dream job. Just know you're taking a big risk. The only thing that would make me hesitate to say Baylor is that I have no idea what job prospects are like for its grads.

1. The Baylor scholly has strings attached and does not cover living expenses.... so it is not a debt free alternative. It will result in a lower debt load after graduation, but you can't say the magnitude of the difference with certainty due to the strings.
2. The additional job prospects that you will have with a UT degree are worth more than the money you will save by going to Baylor, even if the full tuition scholly stands for the duration.
3. The quality of life during your 3 years of law school will be higher in Austin.
4. You will have many more networking opportunities in Austin which further reinforces point #2.

even though I had absolutely no desire to stay here for law school (though i prob would've been lookin at a WL regardless), go with UT hands down

Waco isnt that bad, but I don't think you can even compare the two

sundevil77 wrote:Here's the deal OP, if you are person that seeks to minimize maximum risk, then you'll be going to Baylor. The absolute worst scenario is that you go to Texas, have an average to poor performance, and get no job. You'll come out of school unemployed and over $200K in debt (includes current debt). Forget living the dream, you'll be living a nightmare at that point. The worst that can happen at Baylor is no job, but with significantly lower debt.

On the other hand, you can take a gamble and go for UT. Hopefully you do well, network with the right people, and secure your dream job. Just know you're taking a big risk. The only thing that would make me hesitate to say Baylor is that I have no idea what job prospects are like for its grads.

OP already has $40k of debt, and COL will likely add another $30-40k. And that's if OP can keep the $$, which at Baylor is no guarantee. $70-80k of debt with no job prospects is functionally equivalent to $200k of debt with no job prospects. You're seriously screwed either way. The chances of paying off $80k of debt with menial job prospects are slim to none, so go with the school that actually gives decent odds at landing a good job, even ITE.

Thanks for all of the replies You guys are awesome!!! I still haven't made a decision, but you all gave me a lot to think about.