CLS with $$$ v. Berkeley v. HLS for west coast PI Forum

[WellNow]

Let's put it this way, do you think you'd get a job at a V5 firm if you weren't in the top 10% of your CCNB class? Because I don't think you would, and that's approximately equivalent to landing a job with the ACLU from what I understand.

Getting a job with ACLU national right now, or anytime really, is very hard and you need to have top grades. However, PI outfits, even very prestigious ones, have much, much different hiring models than firms. Experience is always going to be the decisive factor. Now if your point is that you need to be top ten percent to get the requisite prestige experience (i.e. clerking for a highly selective federal district court or a COA) then maybe we are saying similar things.

[tallboone]

You really can't make a bad decision. If you want to be in the bay area with the significant other, wait to hear from Berkeley and take their matching offer. That being said, Harvard might give you a bit of advantage in securing the most prestigious PI positions.

[Unemployed]

Let's put it this way, do you think you'd get a job at a V5 firm if you weren't in the top 10% of your CCNB class? Because I don't think you would, and that's approximately equivalent to landing a job with the ACLU from what I understand.

What is this "CCNB" business

And yes, people outside of 10% at CCN get V5 offers ITE. Rarely, but surely.

[Kronk]

Let's put it this way, do you think you'd get a job at a V5 firm if you weren't in the top 10% of your CCNB class? Because I don't think you would, and that's approximately equivalent to landing a job with the ACLU from what I understand.

What is this "CCNB" business

And yes, people outside of 10% at CCN get V5 offers ITE. Rarely, but surely.

Well we're talking about the West Coast, where I don't think Berkeley is any worse than Chicago or Columbia (particularly in PI) and much better than NYU.

[Unemployed]

Let's put it this way, do you think you'd get a job at a V5 firm if you weren't in the top 10% of your CCNB class? Because I don't think you would, and that's approximately equivalent to landing a job with the ACLU from what I understand.

What is this "CCNB" business

And yes, people outside of 10% at CCN get V5 offers ITE. Rarely, but surely.

Well we're talking about the West Coast, where I don't think Berkeley is any worse than Chicago or Columbia (particularly in PI) and much better than NYU.

That is all true, but you mentioned V5 hiring (only one of the V5 firms even has a west coast presence).

If OP wants ACLU or a similarly prestigious PI job, he should go to Harvard. Not NYU, not Boalt, not CLS.

[Kronk]

Let's put it this way, do you think you'd get a job at a V5 firm if you weren't in the top 10% of your CCNB class? Because I don't think you would, and that's approximately equivalent to landing a job with the ACLU from what I understand.

What is this "CCNB" business

And yes, people outside of 10% at CCN get V5 offers ITE. Rarely, but surely.

Well we're talking about the West Coast, where I don't think Berkeley is any worse than Chicago or Columbia (particularly in PI) and much better than NYU.

That is all true, but you mentioned V5 hiring (only one of the V5 firms even has a west coast presence).

If OP wants ACLU or a similarly prestigious PI job, he should go to Harvard. Not NYU, not Boalt, not CLS.

I didn't say anything different. I told the OP to pick HLS.

[MellonCollie]

Let's put it this way, do you think you'd get a job at a V5 firm if you weren't in the top 10% of your CCNB class? Because I don't think you would, and that's approximately equivalent to landing a job with the ACLU from what I understand.

At this point, it's not about absolute difficulty, but relative difficulty. Do you think that someone can get an ACLU offer without being in the top 15 or 20% at HLS? (Genuinely curious - I have no idea what the actual difference is, but it can't be top 10% CCN vs top 40% or something YHS.)

[Kronk]

Let's put it this way, do you think you'd get a job at a V5 firm if you weren't in the top 10% of your CCNB class? Because I don't think you would, and that's approximately equivalent to landing a job with the ACLU from what I understand.

At this point, it's not about absolute difficulty, but relative difficulty. Do you think that someone can get an ACLU offer without being in the top 15 or 20% at HLS? (Genuinely curious - I have no idea what the actual difference is, but it can't be top 10% CCN vs top 40% or something YHS.)

Does Harvard rank? I thought they tried to eliminate that. I think that anything could happen. That's why they have interviews and don't just hire based on numbers. A guy in the top 20% at CLS could get a V5 job that a top 10% HLS grad couldn't get. It's just fairly unlikely. I think that on the whole, you'll have a better chance at HLS at the same percentile than you would at CCNB. I think that's all anyone really knows.

[MellonCollie]

Let's put it this way, do you think you'd get a job at a V5 firm if you weren't in the top 10% of your CCNB class? Because I don't think you would, and that's approximately equivalent to landing a job with the ACLU from what I understand.

At this point, it's not about absolute difficulty, but relative difficulty. Do you think that someone can get an ACLU offer without being in the top 15 or 20% at HLS? (Genuinely curious - I have no idea what the actual difference is, but it can't be top 10% CCN vs top 40% or something YHS.)

Does Harvard rank? I thought they tried to eliminate that. I think that anything could happen. That's why they have interviews and don't just hire based on numbers. A guy in the top 20% at CLS could get a V5 job that a top 10% HLS grad couldn't get. It's just fairly unlikely. I think that on the whole, you'll have a better chance at HLS at the same percentile than you would at CCNB. I think that's all anyone really knows.

Harvard doesn't rank, but employers have rough ideas based on ratios of Hs to Ps.

I guess my point was just that these jobs are difficult to get for anyone, from any school. (Yale might be the exception.) I'm all for maximizing opportunity, but OP should realize that she will have to do very well regardless of what school she goes to.

[beef wellington]

Columbia's LRAP is decent, but Boalt's is so good that you might never pay a dime for your legal education. As others have pointed out, HLS gives you a better shot at elite PI, but I'm sure you'd be able to land a great job out of Boalt too. It's a question of whether you're willing to make 10 years of IBR payments for a better shot at an elite gig. You might want to find out if HLS has any plans to adopt a Boalt-style LRAP, a lot of the top schools seem to be upgrading theirs to dovetail with IBR/PSLF. But even if they don't, I'd still probably vote HLS.

[chris0805]

I would take Boalt if you're looking for ADA or PD work on the west coast. Otherwise, I would go to HLS and do my summer internships out there. If you're worried about money, I think CLS will have the best LRAP situation. I actually would be really uncomfortable going to Boalt and banking on their LRAP because they talk about "applying" to the program. And as stated above, a lot of schools are starting to mix their LRAP with IBR (as it looks like Boalt has done recently). I wouldn't be surprised if all schools had very different LRAPs available by the time current 0Ls graduate.

FWIW, I don't know if "apply" is just a poor choice of words, but at HLS and CLS you don't apply. You show proof of eligible employment and you're in. Again, maybe no one gets rejected at Boalt either, but the word choice would make me uncomfortable.

P.S. Just saw that the OP would like to clerk... go to HLS. I disagree that HLS will help you in non-gov't prestigious PI that much over CLS or Boalt, but it WILL help you that much in clerking.

[worldtraveler]

OP if you want to clerk, Berkeley's LRAP covers you for that if you are going into public interest afterwards. I don't know if the other ones do that. It also covers non-tenure track academic positions.

I can only speak to Berkeley's LRAP, but the other info about it in the thread is not correct. You get all of your loans covered up to 65k and then it's a sliding scale up to 100k. If you're making more than 100k, you shouldn't need it anyway.

[thrillhouse]

CLS's LRAP will cover PI work even if you enter it after you've clerked. There is no cap on how much they'll pay back. So, even if you go entirely on loans for all three years, they'll pay it all back for you. The income threshold is $50k. Above $50k, they'll still pay back loans for you, but you'll have to pay 37.5% of your income above that. For instance, if your PI job pays $60k, then you will owe $3,750 (37.5% of the 10k above 50k) toward your loan payments for the year. CLS will pick up the rest.

If you get one of CLS's PI fellowships, they raise the income threshold to $100k. At that income level, you can be guaranteed you'll never owe a dime. Well, that, or you have the ballinest PI job ever.

I know nothing about how Boalt or HLS LRAPs work, but I know the CLS one well. It is quite generous and has been known to allow a person to qualify even if they work at a firm, provided they do certain kinds of work at the firm.

Also, the Dean just held a meeting where he told us that Columbia is changing it to allow people to combine it with the federal government's LRAP program for an even better pay back. If you are sure PI is where you want to be, this new combination plan looks killer.

Any one of these schools will get you a PI job anywhere in the country you want to go. Obviously, some jobs are more prestigious than others and will require better grades. The higher up the chain you go, the more latitude you have to mess up. So, HLS might give you more wiggle room than CLS which will give you more wiggle room than Boalt. But, the wiggle room you have won't be much from school to school. Go where you'll be happiest. If that's where you know you'll come out owing the least, pick CLS. If that's where you'll be closest to your SO, then pick Boalt. I can't think of a good reason to pick HLS, except that it IS HLS. Of course, some will say that's a reason NOT to choose it.

[irishman86]

Harvard because you want prestigious PI. If not Harvard, Columbia. Its LRAP is probably better than Boalt's on its own and you do not have to get "selected" to be eligible for LRAP. You have to apply for LRAP at Boalt and Boalt gets to pick who gets to use its LRAP and who doesn't.

[Dignan]

Harvard because you want prestigious PI. If not Harvard, Columbia. Its LRAP is probably better than Boalt's on its own and you do not have to get "selected" to be eligible for LRAP. You have to apply for LRAP at Boalt and Boalt gets to pick who gets to use its LRAP and who doesn't.

Wow. I didn't realize that. Do you have a source/link?

[irishman86]

Harvard because you want prestigious PI. If not Harvard, Columbia. Its LRAP is probably better than Boalt's on its own and you do not have to get "selected" to be eligible for LRAP. You have to apply for LRAP at Boalt and Boalt gets to pick who gets to use its LRAP and who doesn't.

Wow. I didn't realize that. Do you have a source/link?

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6190.htm

Read the bottom. It sounds like you have to apply and they get to choose applicants, unlike Columbia's. The "application" process makes it seem like it is not guaranteed, unlike Columbia's.

[Dignan]

Harvard because you want prestigious PI. If not Harvard, Columbia. Its LRAP is probably better than Boalt's on its own and you do not have to get "selected" to be eligible for LRAP. You have to apply for LRAP at Boalt and Boalt gets to pick who gets to use its LRAP and who doesn't.

Wow. I didn't realize that. Do you have a source/link?

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6190.htm

Read the bottom. It sounds like you have to apply and they get to choose applicants, unlike Columbia's. The "application" process makes it seem like it is not guaranteed, unlike Columbia's.

Huh. I think I read this differently than you do. It seems to me that the application process is there for the applicant to demonstrate that he or she is in qualifying employment. Surely, all schools--Columbia included--require you to verify that you are actually performing qualifying public interest work. Other schools might not call this process an "application," but the intent is the same.

To its credit, Berkeley is pretty clear about what constitutes qualifying employment. This is from the same link that you referenced:

Qualifying employment is defined as greater than half-time work for a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization or an agency of government in law-related employment. It includes but is not limited to prosecutors, public defenders, military JAG corps, legislative staff, and administrative agency staff that make substantial use of legal skills, for example, by requiring passage of the bar or otherwise drawing heavily on law school training. Positions with international NGOs or foreign governments meeting the above requirements can qualify for LRAP coverage. Non-tenure track academic positions at nonprofit educational institutions, including but not limited to clinical instructors and research fellows, can also qualify. Tenure track academic positions and positions in private firms, even if doing public service work, do not qualify. A preliminary review of prospective jobs by the LRAP Coordinator is available and encouraged.

Judicial clerkships intended to last two or more years are considered qualifying employment. Beginning with the Class of 2008, judicial clerkships of less than two years qualify if the graduate intends to pursue public service employment immediately following the clerkship.

It sounds like if your employment satisfies the above conditions, you qualify. I don't think that Berkeley will reject LRAP applications from people whose job duties fall into one of the categories described above. If someone at Berkeley knows differently, please weigh in here.

[Kronk]

Harvard because you want prestigious PI. If not Harvard, Columbia. Its LRAP is probably better than Boalt's on its own and you do not have to get "selected" to be eligible for LRAP. You have to apply for LRAP at Boalt and Boalt gets to pick who gets to use its LRAP and who doesn't.

Wow. I didn't realize that. Do you have a source/link?

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6190.htm

Read the bottom. It sounds like you have to apply and they get to choose applicants, unlike Columbia's. The "application" process makes it seem like it is not guaranteed, unlike Columbia's.

Completely false. This guy is the biggest anti-Boalt troll since Kurama, fwiw. Every LRAP program in the nation has a "budget." If that budget gets exceeded, they have to pro rate everyone's repayment. That's true from Yale down to Georgetown, period. They can't just make money materialize if it doesn't exist.

[Dignan]

Harvard because you want prestigious PI. If not Harvard, Columbia. Its LRAP is probably better than Boalt's on its own and you do not have to get "selected" to be eligible for LRAP. You have to apply for LRAP at Boalt and Boalt gets to pick who gets to use its LRAP and who doesn't.

Wow. I didn't realize that. Do you have a source/link?

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6190.htm

Read the bottom. It sounds like you have to apply and they get to choose applicants, unlike Columbia's. The "application" process makes it seem like it is not guaranteed, unlike Columbia's.

Completely false. This guy is the biggest anti-Boalt troll since Kurama, fwiw. Every LRAP program in the nation has a "budget." If that budget gets exceeded, they have to pro rate everyone's repayment. That's true from Yale down to Georgetown, period. They can't just make money materialize if it doesn't exist.

It's true, of course, that law schools can't print money, but they can shuffle funds around, and they have ways of raising revenue. (If you don't believe me, check out how much tuition has skyrocketed over the past five years.)

In any event, what you say is interesting. So, in spite of whatever promises a law school makes, it can essentially renege on its LRAP payments if its LRAP "budget" runs out of money? If so, this means that LRAP participants are entirely dependent on the goodwill of the school. Is that really the case?

[Kronk]

It's true, of course, that law schools can't print money, but they can shuffle funds around, and they have ways of raising revenue. (If you don't believe me, check out how much tuition has skyrocketed over the past five years.)

In any event, what you say is interesting. So, in spite of whatever promises a law school makes, it can essentially renege on its LRAP payments if its LRAP "budget" runs out of money? If so, this means that LRAP participants are entirely dependent on the goodwill of the school. Is that really the case?

Yes, this is true. Although a VERY small percentage of people actually end up using the LRAP, so I don't think they generally run out of funds. At CLS I think something like 3-5 percent of graduates actually use the program. At Berkeley I am assuming that number would be higher, but still.

[beef wellington]

I think some LRAPs are guaranteed. I hadn't realized that Boalt's isnt. It might actually give me pause given the UC's budget problems. If I hadn't already been dinged I'd get with someone in the financial aid office and make sure the money's going to be there.

[Kronk]

I think some LRAPs are guaranteed. I hadn't realized that Boalt's isnt. It might actually give me pause given the UC's budget problems. If I hadn't already been dinged I'd get with someone in the financial aid office and make sure the money's going to be there.

No LRAPs are guaranteed. They are ALL on a budget, just like a school is on a budget. But Berkeley's LRAP isn't going anywhere. They raised tuition for a reason and the people at the school are very resourceful and smart. They know what they're doing.

[Dignan]

It's true, of course, that law schools can't print money, but they can shuffle funds around, and they have ways of raising revenue. (If you don't believe me, check out how much tuition has skyrocketed over the past five years.)

In any event, what you say is interesting. So, in spite of whatever promises a law school makes, it can essentially renege on its LRAP payments if its LRAP "budget" runs out of money? If so, this means that LRAP participants are entirely dependent on the goodwill of the school. Is that really the case?

Yes, this is true. Although a VERY small percentage of people actually end up using the LRAP, so I don't think they generally run out of funds. At CLS I think something like 3-5 percent of graduates actually use the program. At Berkeley I am assuming that number would be higher, but still.

I'm surprised. Does this also apply to scholarships? If a school promises you 90K over three years, and then the school's scholarship budget "runs out of funds" after your first year, can the school get away with not paying you the remaining 60K over your final two years? And if the school can't do that, how is the scholarship situation different than the LRAP situation?

[Kronk]

It's true, of course, that law schools can't print money, but they can shuffle funds around, and they have ways of raising revenue. (If you don't believe me, check out how much tuition has skyrocketed over the past five years.)

In any event, what you say is interesting. So, in spite of whatever promises a law school makes, it can essentially renege on its LRAP payments if its LRAP "budget" runs out of money? If so, this means that LRAP participants are entirely dependent on the goodwill of the school. Is that really the case?

Yes, this is true. Although a VERY small percentage of people actually end up using the LRAP, so I don't think they generally run out of funds. At CLS I think something like 3-5 percent of graduates actually use the program. At Berkeley I am assuming that number would be higher, but still.

I'm surprised. Does this also apply to scholarships? If a school promises you 90K over three years, and then the school's scholarship budget "runs out of funds" after your first year, can the school get away with not paying you the remaining 60K over your final two years? And if the school can't do that, how is the scholarship situation different than the LRAP situation?

No school is that irresponsible with money, so it wouldn't happen. I'm just saying LRAP programs run on a budget just like the rest of the school. They are smart enough to know what they can handle and they adjust their programs accordingly, but they're on a budget.

Duke (which isn't the best example because they don't have a great LRAP) has like $150,000 budget that they hold to and if they exceed it then everyone on their LRAP program takes a hit.

[beef wellington]

The old Equal Justice Works guide listed many LRAPs as guaranteed. It seems to me if the policy doesn't include language like Boalt's, then they're implicitly guaranteed.