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Fordham # of attorneys > GULC # of attorneys in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:36 pm
by starsong
Not suggesting that Fordham places better than GULC nationally. Just interesting data that I compiled on # of attorneys in NYC offices:
Fordham vs. Georgetown - NYC Attorneys
??? = didn't find school-specific or city-specific search on firm web site
Code: Select all
Fordham Georgetown
1 Wachtell 4 4
2 Cravath 28 16
3 Skadden 44 35
4 S&C 10 2
5 Davis Polk 24 33
6 Weil Gotshal 60 40
7 Simpson Thatcher 29 31
8 Cleary Gottlieb 9 10
9 Covington & Burling 5 2
10 Kirkland & Ellis 19 21
11 Williams & Connoley 0 0
12 Debevoise & Plimpton 18 14
13 Paul Weiss 20 20
14 Gibson Dunn 11 10
15 Sidley Austin 46 13
16 WilmerHale 12 4
17 Latham & Watkins 12 16
18 Arnold & Porter 3 5
19 Jones Day 39 25
20 White & Case 43 19
21 Sherman & Sterling ???
22 O'Melveny & Myers 23 12
23 Quinn Emanuel 13 8
24 Ropes & Gray 22 10
25 Hogan & Hartson 13 10
26 [url=https://www.lawcrossing.com/lawfirmprofile/K7POr/Clifford-Chance/]clifford chance[/url] ???
27 Morrison Foerster 20 10
28 Mayer Brown 27 9
29 Linklaters ???
30 Boies, Schiller & Flexner 0 0
31 Millbank 23 22
32 Paul Hastings 20 7
33 Akin Gump 12 12
34 Fried Frank 29 16
35 Winston & Strawn 20 6
36 Allen & Overy ???
37 Willkie Farr & Gallagher 33 26
38 Freshfields ???
39 Baker Botts 12 3
40 Munger, Tolles & Olson 0 0
41 Orrick 17 11
42 Baker & McKenzie 5 2
43 Goodwin Proctor 18 6
44 [url=https://www.bcgsearch.com/bestlawfirms/KrIVb/DLA-Piper/rankings]dla piper[/url] ???
45 King & Spalding 12 4
46 Jenner & Block LLP ???
47 Dewey & LeBoeuf ???
48 Proskauer 5 14
49 Vinson & Elkins LLP 1 4
50 Irell & Manella LLP 0 0
Totals 761 512
(note: a few firms allow only keyword searches to find the school, so BAs/MAs/etc. may be mistakenly included. should not radically alter the results.)
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:40 pm
by FlightoftheEarls
Assuming these numbers to actually be what they are reported to be, and considering how many Georgetown grads probably aim for DC and how Fordham grads probably overwhelmingly aim for NYC, I think it's ultimately going to be rather hard to argue that Fordham places "better" relative to Georgetown, even though this is it's home market.
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:40 pm
by D. H2Oman
Try to think of the potential flaw in your reasoning, bro.
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:43 pm
by starsong
No argument here, just an observation. You could argue this shows self-selection by GULC grads to DC, you could also argue that firms prefer GULC grads for non-NYC positions. It's just an interesting data set.
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:44 pm
by im_blue
Fordham places 88% of their graduates in the NY/NJ/PA region, so probably 80% are in NYC. In contrast, GULC probably places about 20-25% in NYC. So Fordham places roughly 3-4 times as many graduates as GULC into NYC, but only 50% more into V50.
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:48 pm
by 270910
starsong wrote:No argument here, just an observation. You could argue this shows self-selection by GULC grads to DC, you could also argue that firms prefer GULC grads for non-NYC positions. It's just an interesting data set.
Hint: One of the things you said is true, the other is not true. See if you can figure out which is which!
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:50 pm
by D. H2Oman
starsong wrote:No argument here, just an observation. You could argue this shows self-selection by GULC grads to DC, you could also argue that firms prefer GULC grads for non-NYC positions. It's just an interesting data set.
So, you admit that your title is deceiving and your thread is as useless as the ones created by Reasonabledoubt. Good.
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:53 pm
by starsong
disco_barred wrote:starsong wrote:No argument here, just an observation. You could argue this shows self-selection by GULC grads to DC, you could also argue that firms prefer GULC grads for non-NYC positions. It's just an interesting data set.
Hint: One of the things you said is true, the other is not true. See if you can figure out which is which!
Both may be true. GULC grads prefer D.C.->more GULC alumni in D.C.->more GULC grads preferred in D.C. hiring.
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:55 pm
by Rock Chalk
.
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:55 pm
by Zapatero
It's important to note when these people graduated from law school and were hired. Fordham places well in NYC, but I bet if you compared GULC and Fordham over the last, say, 5 years, the data would tell a different story.
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:56 pm
by starsong
D. H2Oman wrote:starsong wrote:No argument here, just an observation. You could argue this shows self-selection by GULC grads to DC, you could also argue that firms prefer GULC grads for non-NYC positions. It's just an interesting data set.
So, you admit that your title is deceiving and your thread is as useless as the ones created by Reasonabledoubt. Good.
The title was clear. It's even more explicit now.
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:57 pm
by starsong
Zapatero wrote:It's important to note when these people graduated from law school and were hired. Fordham places well in NYC, but I bet if you compared GULC and Fordham over the last, say, 5 years, the data would tell a different story.
Great point. A comparison of only associates would also be interesting.
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:02 pm
by starsong
im_blue wrote:Fordham places 88% of their graduates in the NY/NJ/PA region, so probably 80% are in NYC. In contrast, GULC probably places about 20-25% in NYC. So Fordham places roughly 3-4 times as many graduates as GULC into NYC, but only 50% more into V50.
GULC "Quick Facts" reports 28% in NYC:
http://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissions/QuickFacts.htm
Admittedly, not a huge difference, but "3-4 times" seems slightly exaggerated.
Re: Fordham # of attorneys > GULC # of attorneys in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:03 pm
by 270910
Look, in an average (neither boom nor bust) year median @ GULC has a solid, solid shot at NYC BIGLAW. Median Fordham student? Not so much.
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:13 pm
by starsong
im_blue wrote:Fordham places 88% of their graduates in the NY/NJ/PA region, so probably 80% are in NYC. In contrast, GULC probably places about 20-25% in NYC. So Fordham places roughly 3-4 times as many graduates as GULC into NYC, but only 50% more into V50.
Also, GULC has a larger class size than Fordham. So you can't just compare %s.
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:15 pm
by Rock Chalk
.
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:16 pm
by 270910
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:31 pm
by starsong
87% is mid-Atlantic, which includes Philly. Let's assume 80% for NYC.
Also, latest graduating class sizes (from
http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf):
Georgetown - 676
Fordham - 470
28% of 676 - ~190
80% of 470 - ~376
Fordham puts ~2x as many graduates as GULC in NYC, and has ~1.5x as many graduates as GULC in V50 NYC offices.
I'm not arguing that Fordham places better than GULC nationwide. Fordham's V50 NYC presence is impressive, however--who would have thought that for every GULC grad at Cravath--#2 firm in the nation (and no D.C. office)--there are nearly two Fordham grads?
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:40 pm
by im_blue
starsong wrote:
87% is mid-Atlantic, which includes Philly. Let's assume 80% for NYC.
Also, latest graduating class sizes (from
http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf):
Georgetown - 676
Fordham - 470
28% of 676 - ~190
80% of 470 - ~376
Fordham puts ~2x as many graduates as GULC in NYC, and has ~1.5x as many graduates as GULC in V50 NYC offices.
I'm not arguing that Fordham places better than GULC nationwide. Fordham's V50 NYC presence is impressive, however--who would have thought that for every GULC grad at Cravath--#2 firm in the nation (and no D.C. office)--there are nearly two Fordham grads?
Yeah my math up there was off (didn't take into account class sizes), but it looks like Fordham places about 75% as well as GULC into V50 on a per-capita basis, which sounds about right given the difference in rank.
Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:03 pm
by starsong
im_blue wrote:Yeah my math up there was off (didn't take into account class sizes), but it looks like Fordham places about 75% as well as GULC into V50 on a per-capita basis, which sounds about right given the difference in rank.
A T30 placing 75% as well as a T-14 into NYC V50 still seems quite impressive. It'd be interesting to compare across the V100 and NLJ250...
Re: Fordham # of attorneys > GULC # of attorneys in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:02 pm
by OperaSoprano
I'm just taking a break from writing my appellate brief to find... good things, generally. I'm a fan of GULC, though I declined to send an EA transfer app. I don't think Fordham needs to be defended any more than has already been done. It's not a T14, but it's damn good for that which it is, and the idea of leaving for GULC seemed unnecessary to me, since NYC is where I want to stay, and I love it here.
For the record, we do know how Fordham and GULC stack up nationally. This is from my school's website, and the methodology is as follows:
Methodology: “Top firms” identified using the 2009 AmLaw100 sorted by average partner compensation from the 2009 AmLaw100 Database (Downloadable File) purchased online from the American Lawyer. Law School graduates at top firms identified through “
Martindale Hubbell Listings, All” database of LexisNexis, identifying every attorney from any of the top firms who graduated from a particular law school. Retrieved June 2009.
I don't know what the numbers would look like for the V50 nationally. If someone had the time to do this, it would be interesting to see. The closest thing we have is this, and it's impartial, though it's from 2008:
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml
Leiter placed Fordham at #15. Due to conflagration in the NYC market, the Boston and DC schools had better luck in 2009. We are hoping for a better year and a better OCI in August; according to friends in V5 firms (here in New York), recruiters have started calling again, so that hope may be justified.
Re: Fordham # of attorneys > GULC # of attorneys in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:13 pm
by starsong
OperaSoprano wrote:...I don't know what the numbers would look like for the V50 nationally. If someone had the time to do this, it would be interesting to see...
Thanks for this data!
There's no question that GULC is far stronger than Fordham nationally, although I agree it would be interesting to see the degree of difference across the V50.
In NYC, however, the results of Fordham vs. GULC across the V100 are even more interesting. The below data shows that while Fordham sends ~2X as many graduates as Georgetown to NYC, it manages to place 1.8X as many in V100 NYC firm offices. Put differently, Fordham's relative strength vs. Georgetown in V100 NYC = 90%, a sign of its strong regional reputation and alumni base.
Code: Select all
Fordham vs. Georgetown - NYC Attorneys
Fordham Georgetown
Class size 470 676
% to NYC (approx.) 80% 28%
# to NYC (approx.) 376 189
% (# FLS / # x) 199%
V5 110 90
V5 % (FLS V5 # / x V5 #) 122%
V5 %/% 62%
V10 232 194
V10 % (FLS V10 # / x V10 #) 120%
V10 %/% 60%
V50 761 512
V50 % (FLS V50 # / x V50 #) 149%
V50 %/% 75%
V100 1292 723
V100 % (FLS V100 # / x V100 #) 179%
V100 %/% 90%
Fordham Georgetown
1Wachtell 4 4
2Cravath 28 16
3Skadden 44 35
4S&C 10 2
5Davis Polk 24 33
6Weil Gotshal 60 40
7Simpson Thatcher 29 31
8Cleary Gottlieb 9 10
9Covington & Burling 5 2
10Kirkland & Ellis 19 21
11Williams & Connoley 0 0
12Debevoise & Plimpton 18 14
13Paul Weiss 20 20
14Gibson Dunn 11 10
15Sidley Austin 46 13
16WilmerHale 12 4
17Latham & Watkins 12 16
18Arnold & Porter 3 5
19Jones Day 39 25
20White & Case 43 19
21Sherman & Sterling ??? ???
22O'Melveny & Myers 23 12
23Quinn Emanuel 13 8
24Ropes & Gray 22 10
25Hogan & Hartson 13 10
26Clifford Chance ??? ???
27Morrison Foerster 20 10
28Mayer Brown 27 9
29Linklaters ??? ???
30Boies, Schiller & Flexner 0 0
31Millbank 23 22
32Paul Hastings 20 7
33Akin Gump 12 12
34Fried Frank 29 16
35Winston & Strawn 20 6
36Allen & Overy ??? ???
37Willkie Farr & Gallagher 33 26
38Freshfields ??? ???
39Baker Botts 12 3
40Munger, Tolles & Olson 0 0
41Orrick 17 11
42Baker & McKenzie 5 2
43Goodwin Proctor 18 6
44DLA Piper ??? ???
45King & Spalding 12 4
46Jenner & Block LLP ??? ???
47Dewey & LeBoeuf ??? ???
48Proskauer 5 14
49Vinson & Elkins LLP 1 4
50Irell & Manella LLP 0 0
51Fulbright 11 5
52Wilson Sonsini ??? ???
53Morgan Lewis 20 8
54McDermott Will & Emery 9 10
55Alston & Bird 13 4
56Bingham McCutchen 14 11
57Fish & Richardson 3 1
58Dechert 12 11
59Greenberg Traurig 17 8
60Cawalader 34 17
61Cooley Godward 4 3
62Pillsbury 4 4
63Sonnenschein 24 9
64Cahill 40 9
65Holland & Knight 6 1
66K&L Gates 14 8
67Nixon Peabody ??? ???
68Foley & Lardner 3 1
69Kaye Scholer 36 16
70Steptoe & Johnson 1 4
71Reed Smith 2 0
72Bryan Cave 20 4
73Perkins Cole 0 0
74Hunton & Williams 8 2
75Patton Boggs 2 0
76Arent Fox ??? ???
77Schulte Roth ??? ???
78Howrey 5 2
79Chadbourne & Parke 32 17
80Crowell & Moring 9 0
81Katten Muchin 24 9
82McGuireWoods ??? ???
83Baker Hostetler 6 7
84Dickenstein Shapiro 11 0
85Veneable 7 6
86Locke Lord Bissell & Lidd 8 2
87Bracewell Giuliani 3 2
88Dorsey & Whitney 4 2
89Finnegan 0 0
90Hughes Hubbard & Reed 16 2
91Stroock 7 1
92Blank Rome 11 3
93Seyfarth Shaw 5 2
94Kramer Levin Naftalis & F 36 11
95Manatt 3 0
96Squire Sanders 3 1
97Sheppard Mullin 7 1
98Patterson Belknap 25 4
99Wiley Rein 0 0
100Mintz Levin 12 3
Re: Fordham # of attorneys > GULC # of attorneys in NYC @ V50?
Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:46 pm
by OperaSoprano
starsong wrote:OperaSoprano wrote:...I don't know what the numbers would look like for the V50 nationally. If someone had the time to do this, it would be interesting to see...
Thanks for this data!
There's no question that GULC is far stronger than Fordham nationally, although I agree it would be interesting to see the degree of difference across the V50.
In NYC, however, the results of Fordham vs. GULC across the V100 are even more interesting. The below data shows that while Fordham sends ~2X as many graduates as Georgetown to NYC, it manages to place 1.8X as many in V100 NYC firm offices. Put differently, Fordham's relative strength vs. Georgetown in V100 NYC = 90%, a sign of its strong regional reputation and alumni base.
Wonderful! Thank you for the epic math win. I see the firm I "had a crush on" previously... It looks like a few Fordham alumni are working there. Goodness me.
*Goes back to working on brief with a will*