Top Law Schools

Is there any reasonable argument for choosing Berkeley (with yet unspecified financial aid) over Columbia+Butler?

At Berkeley ASW last year, a lot of students had the Berkeley vs. NYU or Columbia problem. I think if you're more into business/corporate law, Columbia is a better option; if you have your heart set on public interest or public service, then Berkeley is more geared towards that. If neither of those things will sway your decision, then it really comes down to personal preference - east coast vs. west coast, etc.

I'm from California (too), but I'll trade my Boalt acceptance + in state for your Columbia acceptance at sticker. If I were you, I wouldn't even think twice.

Make Fat Joe proud and go with the East side and the money.

Sure, there are plenty of reasons!

1. Environment, i.e., stress on a competitive nature, general 'vibe', buildings (great new one coming at Berkeley in for 2011).

2. Weather. Hands down Berkeley, obviously.

3. California > NY (if you disagree, your choice becomes evident)
... and San Francisco > NYC (again...)

4. If you have an interest in becoming a professor Boalt > Columbia (new stats abound)

5. Interdisciplinary opportunities put Berkeley >>> Columbia
(at Berkeley 35 of 36 grad programs in top 10, and most are in top 5 - best major public research university)

I'm sure there are huge arguments for Columbia -- don't want to get flamed, it's just my opinion!

gymboree wrote:Sure, there are plenty of reasons!

1. Environment, i.e., stress on a competitive nature, general 'vibe', buildings (great new one coming at Berkeley in for 2011).

2. Weather. Hands down Berkeley, obviously.

3. California > NY (if you disagree, your choice becomes evident)
... and San Francisco > NYC (again...)

4. If you have an interest in becoming a professor Boalt > Columbia (new stats abound)

5. Interdisciplinary opportunities put Berkeley >>> Columbia
(at Berkeley 35 of 36 grad programs in top 10, and most are in top 5 - best major public research university)

I'm sure there are huge arguments for Columbia -- don't want to get flamed, it's just my opinion!

NYC >>> East Bay. Columbia has been consistently ranked in the top 4 law schools. Boalt was ranked 13 and 11 in the past 6 years. I'm sure when it was ranked 11, nobody would have asked this question. You still have curved grades at Berkeley (HH, H, P). Job prospects are better at Columbia.

I think the people who troll for Boalt are all from California, but Columbia is objectively a better school.

Berkeley over Yale.

Cupidity wrote:Berkeley over Yale.

And people are worried about the UVA trolls on TLS

First off, Boalt isn't even in SF, but I thought this post was amusing...

Have any of you actually lived in SF for an extended period of time?. It is a nice city, but it is small as fuck compared to NYC, London, Chicago, etc.

There are only 500k people in the City itself. The weather is perhaps overall better than NYC, but it is inconsistent and cold and foggy and definitely not even close to typical California weather. People come here expecting sun all the time, but that is hardly the case.

The nightlife is super lame. Everything is DEAD by 1:30 a.m. and you can hit up almost every bar/club in the City after living here for six months.

The transportation system is a mess. Muni is a joke compared to MTA. The girls here aren't even close to NYC standards and they aren't as slutty. There are so many nasty dike looking chicks here, nerdy dudes, and overly educated nerd man-children.

I'm not saying SF is hell on Earth. It is a very good city, but comparing it to NYC is like comparing Boston to London. It just sounds fucking stupid... NYC is a world class city. SF is not even fucking close and I say that as someone who has lived in both.

irishman86 wrote:

gymboree wrote:Sure, there are plenty of reasons!
I'm sure there are huge arguments for Columbia -- don't want to get flamed, it's just my opinion!

NYC >>> East Bay. Columbia has been consistently ranked in the top 4 law schools. Boalt was ranked 13 and 11 in the past 6 years. I'm sure when it was ranked 11, nobody would have asked this question. You still have curved grades at Berkeley (HH, H, P). Job prospects are better at Columbia.

I think the people who troll for Boalt are all from California, but Columbia is objectively a better school.

I gave a giant caveat to my list of reasons, even recognized that there are counter arguments aplenty. This entire topic should be seen from a subjective standpoint. It's a personal decision, after all.

However, I am not from California. Do I win on the technicality?

edit: for formatting

gymboree wrote:

irishman86 wrote:

gymboree wrote:Sure, there are plenty of reasons!
I'm sure there are huge arguments for Columbia -- don't want to get flamed, it's just my opinion!

NYC >>> East Bay. Columbia has been consistently ranked in the top 4 law schools. Boalt was ranked 13 and 11 in the past 6 years. I'm sure when it was ranked 11, nobody would have asked this question. You still have curved grades at Berkeley (HH, H, P). Job prospects are better at Columbia.

I think the people who troll for Boalt are all from California, but Columbia is objectively a better school.

I gave a giant caveat to my list of reasons, even recognized that there are counter arguments aplenty. This entire topic should be seen from a subjective standpoint. It's a personal decision, after all.

However, I am not from California. Do I win on the technicality?

Is Boalt the only top 14 you got into? (What are your numbers?) If yes, then there's no way you can win because you're still far too biased.

never said I wasn't biased! And, yes, Boalt is (so far) my only T14 - which you know already since you checked my LSN. So, YES, loving Boalt.

gymboree wrote:never said I wasn't biased! And, yes, Boalt is (so far) my only T14 - which you know already since you checked my LSN. So, YES, loving Boalt.

fair enough

irishman86 wrote:

gymboree wrote:Sure, there are plenty of reasons!

1. Environment, i.e., stress on a competitive nature, general 'vibe', buildings (great new one coming at Berkeley in for 2011).

2. Weather. Hands down Berkeley, obviously.

3. California > NY (if you disagree, your choice becomes evident)
... and San Francisco > NYC (again...)

4. If you have an interest in becoming a professor Boalt > Columbia (new stats abound)

5. Interdisciplinary opportunities put Berkeley >>> Columbia
(at Berkeley 35 of 36 grad programs in top 10, and most are in top 5 - best major public research university)

I'm sure there are huge arguments for Columbia -- don't want to get flamed, it's just my opinion!

NYC >>> East Bay. Columbia has been consistently ranked in the top 4 law schools. Boalt was ranked 13 and 11 in the past 6 years. I'm sure when it was ranked 11, nobody would have asked this question. You still have curved grades at Berkeley (HH, H, P). Job prospects are better at Columbia.

I think the people who troll for Boalt are all from California, but Columbia is objectively a better school.

I wouldn't say I troll from boalt, but I do think it takes more than its fair share of shit because its a public school. As a chicago guy, I chose California over new york. The california dream, though seriously tarnished over the past couple of years, is still alive in really cold places. Also, regarding boalt's ranking flux over the past ten years, a lot of that has had to do with money spent per student (which, as Brian Leiter and others have pretty convincingly shown) is the tail that wags the USNWR dog. Back around 2000 tuition was around 10 grand in state, so boalt gave out almost no money and essentially let its facilities rot. This has changed with the new dean, which probably helps explains boalt's rise back up the rankings. If you look back to the 60's when Prosser was dean, Boalt has consistently placed in the top ten in terms of academic reputation scores (obviously non-US news, which has only been around since the 90's) for the past 40 years, pretty much right where it is today in US news.

That said, if you want biglaw columbia is the way to go. Otherwise I think the choice comes down to debt and lifestyle (which could go either way depending on your circumstances).

Haha I am having this same dilemma, minus the Butler (that might make my decision easier!), and plus I'm from CA and have always loved Berkeley. Because Columbia will (presumably) be sticker and I do want to practice in CA, my choice will probably hinge on any financial aid/scholarships Cal offers me.

gymboree wrote:
4. If you have an interest in becoming a professor Boalt > Columbia (new stats abound)

I disagree. New stats do not "abound"; we have one year's worth of placement in which Boalt had a good showing. Because there aren't that many new faculty hires a year, there's a lot of random noise from year to year. If you're just looking at one-year snapshots of placement in academia, it's easy for a school to be ranked 5th on year and then 15th the next. I think Brain Leiter's comprehensive chart from is more helpful:

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml

As you can see, Columbia outplaces Berkeley on both an absolute and a per capita basis. The difference isn't that great--I don't think it's a reason to pick Columbia over Berkeley--but it's not fair to say that Boalt is better than Columbia for academia. If anything, the evidence points in the other direction.

Edit: Here's another Leiter chart that looks at faculty hiring over a recent 5-year period:

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml

Berkeley is my top choice. I still think Columbia is TCR unless you have several compelling personal factors.

Columbia w/ Butler and it's not even close.

hth

kittenmittons wrote:Columbia w/ Butler and it's not even close.

hth

Columbia is a declining TTT. BoalTTT is a great institution, as evidenced by the high cost of attendance.

Hattori Hanzo wrote:Is there any reasonable argument for choosing Berkeley (with yet unspecified financial aid) over Columbia+Butler?

Columbia gave YOU a butler and wouldn't even accept my ED application?!

What a joke!

APimpNamedSlickback wrote:

Hattori Hanzo wrote:Is there any reasonable argument for choosing Berkeley (with yet unspecified financial aid) over Columbia+Butler?

columbia gave YOU a butler and wouldn't even accept my ED application?!

What a joke!

tbf, he is superior to you in every quantifiable way.

Kronk wrote:

APimpNamedSlickback wrote:

Hattori Hanzo wrote:Is there any reasonable argument for choosing Berkeley (with yet unspecified financial aid) over Columbia+Butler?

columbia gave YOU a butler and wouldn't even accept my ED application?!

What a joke!

tbf, he is superior to you in every quantifiable way.

I don't know about every quantifiable way bro

kittenmittons wrote:I don't know about every quantifiable way bro

I thought we found out Slickback had a small dick, bro?

kittenmittons wrote:Columbia w/ Butler and it's not even close.

hth

bingo. Columbia was my #1 when I applied.

The only reason to pick BoalTTT over Columbia w/ Butler is if you are like this dude (http://lawschoolnumbers.com/IndianDude/jd) and hate cold weather (which, being from SoCal, you probably do).

I suppose if you know for absolutely sure you want to do PI on the West Coast, then BoalTTT = Columbia and given the LRAP, the Butler becomes somewhat irrelevant.