NYU and DOJ Forum

[Reedie]

So far the highest ranking law school I've been admitted to is NYU (though that in no way makes the matter settled in my mind). I have some strong reservations about living in NYC as a starving student, but from what I can tell NYU is quite strong in the areas of the law that interest me (white collar crime, fraud, political corruption, high tech crime). What I'd really like to do if everything went my way would be to start out my career in the DOJ honors program. Does anyone know where I can get solid information about how NYU grads have faired in this? Placement stats seem to focus overwhelmingly on clerkships and big firm jobs. Trying to get info about how people do in the pi/government world seems to be a real challenge.

[badfish]

If you do well you'll do well.

hth

[Reedie]

If you do well you'll do well.

hth

But how well do you need to do to do well?

[badfish]

I'll look at the employment stats from the school when I get back from the gym. If I forget, pm me.

edit: I left these at home, I can't answer your question immediately, but maybe in a few weeks when I go back.

Sorry man.

[eudaimondaimon]

If you do well you'll do well.

hth

But how well do you need to do to do well?

How well-do do you have to do well, for a do-well to do well?

/Woodchucks 'n such.

[anonymous_dude]

You need to do very well. Career services told me point blank that, outside of Yale (maybe Stanford?), there's no bump. You need to do well enough to get a federal clerkship. Most of the successful applicants clerk at the federal level. DOJ would rather take a top student from a tier-2 school than a middling student from a top law school. I know one person at NYU who's making the jump, and she was in the top 10% of her class, law review, federal clerkship, etc. I know a few CLSers w/ similar backgrounds who did not make the cut. Last year, the DOJ hired 170 people. There were 3,000 applicants.

For those of us who came to law school hoping to work in government, that's frustrating. BIGGOV is just as tough to get -- if not tougher -- than BIGLAW. The legal job market truly is brutal right now. My advice is not to speculate to much about where you'll be 3 years from now. NYU is a great school that will give you options. Work hard and keep an open mind.

[Reedie]

I'll look at the employment stats from the school when I get back from the gym. If I forget, pm me.

edit: I left these at home, I can't answer your question immediately, but maybe in a few weeks when I go back.

Sorry man.

Thanks, that would be great.

[MellonCollie]

I'd be really interested in seeing them as well. Thanks!

[irishman86]

You need to do very well. Career services told me point blank that, outside of Yale (maybe Stanford?), there's no bump. You need to do well enough to get a federal clerkship. Most of the successful applicants clerk at the federal level. DOJ would rather take a top student from a tier-2 school than a middling student from a top law school. I know one person at NYU who's making the jump, and she was in the top 10% of her class, law review, federal clerkship, etc. I know a few CLSers w/ similar backgrounds who did not make the cut. Last year, the DOJ hired 170 people. There were 3,000 applicants.For those of us who came to law school hoping to work in government, that's frustrating. BIGGOV is just as tough to get -- if not tougher -- than BIGLAW. The legal job market truly is brutal right now. My advice is not to speculate to much about where you'll be 3 years from now. NYU is a great school that will give you options. Work hard and keep an open mind.

+1 For DOJ you pretty much need to be in the top 10% of your class. It is definitely more competitive getting a good federal government job than biglaw.

[Reedie]

You need to do very well. Career services told me point blank that, outside of Yale (maybe Stanford?), there's no bump. You need to do well enough to get a federal clerkship. Most of the successful applicants clerk at the federal level. DOJ would rather take a top student from a tier-2 school than a middling student from a top law school. I know one person at NYU who's making the jump, and she was in the top 10% of her class, law review, federal clerkship, etc. I know a few CLSers w/ similar backgrounds who did not make the cut. Last year, the DOJ hired 170 people. There were 3,000 applicants.For those of us who came to law school hoping to work in government, that's frustrating. BIGGOV is just as tough to get -- if not tougher -- than BIGLAW. The legal job market truly is brutal right now. My advice is not to speculate to much about where you'll be 3 years from now. NYU is a great school that will give you options. Work hard and keep an open mind.

+1 For DOJ you pretty much need to be in the top 10% of your class. It is definitely more competitive getting a good federal government job than biglaw.

It's clear that the honors program is now and generally has been more competitive than biglaw. However, apps to government jobs this year have skyrocketed and while I think it may be unrealistic to expect the lawmarket to go back to 2007 I do expect it to be much less of a bloodbath in 2013 than it is right now.

As far as the top 10% thing goes, I see people pulling figures like this out of thin air all of the time, but I see little statistical evidence supporting it. In particular, I've seen a number of contrary claims that--while one needs a good class rank to be competitive--the honors program really emphasizes candidates who have sought out internships, clinical programs, etc... in government oriented areas of the law. NYU seems to offer a lot of opportunities in that direction, and I'm really interested to see some evidence about how they actually pay off.

Obviously, it's unrealistic to go to law school expecting to get into the honors program. I'm just looking for some information about how good of a chance NYU gives students comparatively, as it appears to be a great way to start a career for those fortunate enough to have the opportunity.

And don't worry, I'm willing to be flexible if I need to be. Coming from a PhD. program I often get a bit of a chuckle seeing law students complain about the job market. I'm in a top 10 program for what I do and it is ROUTINE to send out 70 or more applications, and EXCITING to get more than a couple of interviews. Success in these interviews most likely means a tenure track position at bumblefuck state making 45k/year and sacrificing goats to whatever power you believe in that you will pass your tenure review in five years. Further, you have no geographic control over where you end up and if you aren't willing to move anywhere in the country you'd better get used to the idea of making 25k as an adjunct. And that was before the financial shit storm. The idea of employers actually coming to campus to recruit students is sort of hilarious to me. Depressed though you may be it could be worse y'all .

[irishman86]

The statistical evidence for the top 10% lies in the fact that almost everyone who works for the DOJ clerked for Article III judges.

[imchuckbass58]

I think NYU gives you roughly as good a shot as anywhere else (save maybe Yale).

That said, as others have said, you will need to be near the top of the class (maybe not top 10%, but probably top 25%) and have demonstrated interest in public service from what I've heard from 2Ls and 3Ls.

[Reedie]

The statistical evidence for the top 10% lies in the fact that almost everyone who works for the DOJ clerked for Article III judges.

Ok, can you provide me with some source for this?

[imchuckbass58]

The statistical evidence for the top 10% lies in the fact that almost everyone who works for the DOJ clerked for Article III judges.

Sure, but at places like CCN, Article III clerkships are open to more than the top 10%. It's true that at C/N around 10% clerk, but people underestimate that 1) a lot of people are not interested in clerkships, even if they can get them, and 2) while you need to be near the top, it's not a strict process where they simply go down the list according to class rank.

At CCN, I'd argue that top 25% has a decent shot at article III clerking.

Edit: Anecdotally speaking, I know 5 3Ls in the top 3% at my school, and 2 of them didn't even bother applying to clerk because they're set on doing transactional work, and clerking is not as valuable in that context.

[postitnotes]

The statistical evidence for the top 10% lies in the fact that almost everyone who works for the DOJ clerked for Article III judges.

Ok, can you provide me with some source for this?

Not directed at me, but the DOJ presented at Michigan and this is pretty much what they said. Everyone at the presentation clerked and all of them graduated in the top of their class. You can probably get a clerkship if you are in the top 20% outside of YHS though. Most of them applied to the DOJ during their clerkship. The odds of landing the DOJ right after graduation is slim to none.

[postitnotes]

Edit: Anecdotally speaking, I know 5 3Ls in the top 3% at my school, and 2 of them didn't even bother applying to clerk because they're set on doing transactional work, and clerking is not as valuable in that context.

There's a financial incentive. If you clerk, you get a much larger first year associate bonus and you can lateral into biglaw right after you clerk.

[Unemployed]

Edit: Anecdotally speaking, I know 5 3Ls in the top 3% at my school, and 2 of them didn't even bother applying to clerk because they're set on doing transactional work, and clerking is not as valuable in that context.

There's a financial incentive. If you clerk, you get a much larger first year associate bonus and you can lateral into biglaw right after you clerk.

Yeah but ITE has definitely been screwy with clerks. I know more than one biglaw-less clerk, and the ones who got a job did not get the customary signing bonus. One of them didn't even get advanced standing.

[Reedie]

The statistical evidence for the top 10% lies in the fact that almost everyone who works for the DOJ clerked for Article III judges.

Ok, can you provide me with some source for this?

Not directed at me, but the DOJ presented at Michigan and this is pretty much what they said. Everyone at the presentation clerked and all of them graduated in the top of their class. You can probably get a clerkship if you are in the top 20% outside of YHS though. Most of them applied to the DOJ during their clerkship. The odds of landing the DOJ right after graduation is slim to none.

Interesting. The closest thing I've found to an explanation of their hiring practices is the investigation about the politicization of hiring during the bush years (pretty interesting document btw). So the doj attorneys more or less said one needed to clerk first? I wish they would just release stats about who they hired. Maybe they have but I can't find them.

I get the impression that competition for clerkships in NY is relatively more intense than most other places, which makes me wonder if it might not be better to go someplace else.

[Reedie]

Edit: Anecdotally speaking, I know 5 3Ls in the top 3% at my school, and 2 of them didn't even bother applying to clerk because they're set on doing transactional work, and clerking is not as valuable in that context.

There's a financial incentive. If you clerk, you get a much larger first year associate bonus and you can lateral into biglaw right after you clerk.

Yeah but ITE has definitely been screwy with clerks. I know more than one biglaw-less clerk, and the ones who got a job did not get the customary signing bonus. One of them didn't even get advanced standing.

This happened to my cousin.

[imchuckbass58]

Edit: Anecdotally speaking, I know 5 3Ls in the top 3% at my school, and 2 of them didn't even bother applying to clerk because they're set on doing transactional work, and clerking is not as valuable in that context.

There's a financial incentive. If you clerk, you get a much larger first year associate bonus and you can lateral into biglaw right after you clerk.

There's actually a financial disincentive.

If you clerk, market firms will give you a $50,000 bonus, plus treat you as a second year when you arrive (so effectively you don't lose a year). Clerkship salaries are around $75,000 as far as I've heard, so your first year out of law school you are making $125,000.

If you go straight to a firm, you will make $160,000 (at a market firm), plus whatever bonus the firm gives you for the year. Now the bonus is pretty insubstantial ($7,500 or so), but it used to be much larger.

Even assuming no bonus, you are typically sacrificing $35,000. A lot of people think this is worth it, but some don't.

Also, there are outlier cases - if you're top 3% at CCN, you're potentially in the running for WLRK, in which case you'd be sacrificing closer to $100,000.

[MellonCollie]

Edit: Anecdotally speaking, I know 5 3Ls in the top 3% at my school, and 2 of them didn't even bother applying to clerk because they're set on doing transactional work, and clerking is not as valuable in that context.

There's a financial incentive. If you clerk, you get a much larger first year associate bonus and you can lateral into biglaw right after you clerk.

There's actually a financial disincentive.

If you clerk, market firms will give you a $50,000 bonus, plus treat you as a second year when you arrive (so effectively you don't lose a year). Clerkship salaries are around $75,000 as far as I've heard, so your first year out of law school you are making $125,000.

If you go straight to a firm, you will make $160,000 (at a market firm), plus whatever bonus the firm gives you for the year. Now the bonus is pretty insubstantial ($7,500 or so), but it used to be much larger.

Even assuming no bonus, you are typically sacrificing $35,000. A lot of people think this is worth it, but some don't.

Also, there are outlier cases - if you're top 3% at CCN, you're potentially in the running for WLRK, in which case you'd be sacrificing closer to $100,000.

This isn't financial, but getting to skip that first year at the bottom of the ladder is worth something too.

[postitnotes]

Interesting. The closest thing I've found to an explanation of their hiring practices is the investigation about the politicization of hiring during the bush years (pretty interesting document btw). So the doj attorneys more or less said one needed to clerk first? I wish they would just release stats about who they hired. Maybe they have but I can't find them.

Pretty much. I'm not sure they release full statistics about who they hire, but I haven't checked to see what the stats are either since the presentation scared me and I don't have the grades for the DOJ.

I get the impression that competition for clerkships in NY is relatively more intense than most other places, which makes me wonder if it might not be better to go someplace else.

DC is probably the most competitive place for clerkships. NY is definitely up there, so are Chicago and SF. Clerkships are very hard to get anyway, but more so in primary markets. I think many people apply to clerkships in many geographic regions and just see what they can land.

Yeah but ITE has definitely been screwy with clerks. I know more than one biglaw-less clerk, and the ones who got a job did not get the customary signing bonus. One of them didn't even get advanced standing.

Yeah, I know one clerk without a job planned post-clerkship. She wants to eventually work for the US Attorney's Office, but that is very competitive to get now as well, so I don't know what's going to happen after she finishes her clerkship.

[anonymous_dude]

It's clear that the honors program is now and generally has been more competitive than biglaw. However, apps to government jobs this year have skyrocketed and while I think it may be unrealistic to expect the lawmarket to go back to 2007 I do expect it to be much less of a bloodbath in 2013 than it is right now.

As far as the top 10% thing goes, I see people pulling figures like this out of thin air all of the time, but I see little statistical evidence supporting it. In particular, I've seen a number of contrary claims that--while one needs a good class rank to be competitive--the honors program really emphasizes candidates who have sought out internships, clinical programs, etc... in government oriented areas of the law. NYU seems to offer a lot of opportunities in that direction, and I'm really interested to see some evidence about how they actually pay off.

Most of us either (a) don't have that info or (b) are probably not permitted to give it out. NYU keeps their employment data confidential. I also think that you might be overestimating the data that's available. Career Services offers generalized data about placement, e.g., 4 people worked at USDOJ Civil Division over the summer 20XX, but they don't offer information about class rank, internships, clinics, etc.

I can only speak from experience, and I'm just a dude on the internet who ought to be studying, so take it for what it's worth. I sought out NYU 3Ls who had gone onto DOJ. (There were lots!) The only common factor was that all had been on law review and all had clerked. Here's a link to a list of schools that the DOJ hired from in '08 - '09. I think it's indicative of the fact that prestige matters less to the DOJ than achievement.

http://www.justice.gov/oarm/arm/hp/lawschools.htm

[wired]

Edit: Anecdotally speaking, I know 5 3Ls in the top 3% at my school, and 2 of them didn't even bother applying to clerk because they're set on doing transactional work, and clerking is not as valuable in that context.

There's a financial incentive. If you clerk, you get a much larger first year associate bonus and you can lateral into biglaw right after you clerk.

Clerkship salaries are around $75,000 as far as I've heard,

Just an FYI. Students who clerk right out of law school make around $60,000. Those who have a year of experience start at around $72,000.

Source: http://www.justice.gov/oarm/arm/hp/hpsalary.htm