Almost decision time, what would you do? Forum

[ndirish2010]

I vote for Illinois. Also, Fordham is poor compared to other law schools, which makes them stingy. They won't give you money, just the honor of attending Fordham.

Having said that...

That picture needs to stop circulating! I will kill TripTravHoot for making it.

OP, I would give some thought to where you would most like to live in case you don't make biglaw. Cornell is TCR for "best chances at biglaw." After that, I would refer to the NLJ250 chart that was helpfully posted for you. No T30 will give you a guarantee, so it makes sense to weigh your contingency plans and make a decision about where you want to practice. Once you've compared placement, visiting schools is the next most helpful thing you can do. Sometimes visiting really does clinch things; it did for me. I wouldn't make money your primary deciding factor, since personal happiness can throw off any financial equation. Some may disagree with me, but especially if you want biglaw, spending more may give you a better shot.

Thanks, OS (especially for your unbiased response!). I want to live around one of those three cities anyway, so whether it is biglaw or midlaw I will be happy no matter which one of the three I'm in. That being said, I feel like ITE chances are better than not that I won't get biglaw even from Cornell, so it might be worth it to take money somewhere else (same goes for Fordham and GW, both are schools that I would like to attend but I don't think they are worth sticker).

[Borhas]

I vote for Illinois. Also, Fordham is poor compared to other law schools, which makes them stingy. They won't give you money, just the honor of attending Fordham.

Having said that...

That picture needs to stop circulating! I will kill TripTravHoot for making it.

OP, I would give some thought to where you would most like to live in case you don't make biglaw. Cornell is TCR for "best chances at biglaw." After that, I would refer to the NLJ250 chart that was helpfully posted for you. No T30 will give you a guarantee, so it makes sense to weigh your contingency plans and make a decision about where you want to practice. Once you've compared placement, visiting schools is the next most helpful thing you can do. Sometimes visiting really does clinch things; it did for me. I wouldn't make money your primary deciding factor, since personal happiness can throw off any financial equation. Some may disagree with me, but especially if you want biglaw, spending more may give you a better shot.

please switch to previous tar, it was much better

[OperaSoprano]

please switch to previous tar, it was much better

Haha, I like this one. My own father said I'd never make median, so I identify with that scene in the movie. People assume I'm not a serious law student either.

OP: paying sticker is rough, but I have no regrets at all. The school that is right for you will be worth sticker, though you may not have to pay it.

[s0ph1e2007]

In all honesty.

Go Notre Dame.

Notre Dame has huge connections because of the strong loyalty of their grads, the campus is fun, the people are great, and the new law building is pretty amazing.
I know people who went there and absolutely loved it and are both really successful lawyers now after really prestigious internships and clerkships that they got by being top 10% of Notre Dame.

[ndirish2010]

In all honesty.

Go Notre Dame.

Notre Dame has huge connections because of the strong loyalty of their grads, the campus is fun, the people are great, and the new law building is pretty amazing.
I know people who went there and absolutely loved it and are both really successful lawyers now after really prestigious internships and clerkships that they got by being top 10% of Notre Dame.

I'm an undergrad at Notre Dame right now (hence my username), so I know about the campus, alumni network and new law building. If I am fortunate enough to get in, it will be about how the money compares to Illinois that dictates whether I will stay here another three years or not I would think, but it will be a hard decision that's for sure.

[edgarderby]

Assuming no money from Fordham and no other acceptances, I would take Illinois out of these options.

If you get into Cornell, go there. If you get into ND with similar money to Illinois, go there. If you get a full ride at IUB, go there.

Thanks! There seems to be a lot of hate against IU on these forums...is it realistic to get to Chicago biglaw from IU? Or should I be prepared to be in Indy if I'm not in the top 10-15%?

Also, what about WUSTL (especially if I get decent money)?

FWIW, You had to be nearly top 15-20% to get Indy from notre dame this year, and sometimes even that wasn't doing it.

Hell, there were 2 people on law review interviewing for a MISHAWAKA firm in a DECEMBER oci. I imagine IU is doing even worse, so think about that for a second.

[AffirmativeOffense]

My cycle isn't quite over, but I'm finding myself weighing difficult decisions already so I figured I'd do one of these now. I'm looking to at least give myself a decent chance at biglaw in either NYC, DC, or Chicago, but I'm also decently debt averse so I really need to balance job prospects with cost.

Here are my choices so far

Washington and Lee (34K scholarship per year, tuition only ~4K)
Illinois (30K scholarship per year, tuition only ~ 10K)
George Washington (no money yet, ~ 45K tuition)
Fordham (no money yet, ~ 40K tuition, but a chance at scholarship eventually maybe)
Minnesota (18K scholarship per year, ~20K tuition per year)
William and Mary (graduate fellowship totaling $17200 per year, tuition only ~ 15K)

Realistic options that I'm still waiting for are Notre Dame, IU-B, and Cornell...some other T14s but they are not very realistic.

What do you think?

Personally, I would take the money at W&M or Illinois. GW and especially Fordham are obscenely expensive at sticker; why anybody would go there without $$ is beyond me.

Given the economy and the schools you are looking at, biglaw is going to be a lotto for you. You said you are debt averse, so I would take the money at one of the schools that gave you $$ and hope for the best. If you lose the biglaw lotto, you'll end up with little or no debt, which is extremely liberating.

[chadwick218]

At this point, I would take either W&L or Illinois. Considering that you are debt adverse, I might only take Cornell if you are truly set on wanting biglaw in NYC. Finally, once all of your offers come in, you might be able to negotiate $10K - $15K / year out of Cornell.

[marshalltucker]

W&L without question, although Illinois wouldn't be a bad choice if you were dead set on Chicago.

[ndirish2010]

Finally some W&L supporters! I'm sure I'll be adding to this thread when my other offers come in...right now it's between W&L and Illinois definitely, though I may try to negotiate some money out of my other schools. I think I will be withdrawing from Minnesota shortly, doesn't seem like there is much support for them nor do I really like the location.

Hopefully my ND decision arrives shortly, and I hear from Cornell sometime before April 1 (not even complete yet, applied after the December LSAT).

[cubswin]

Illinois, if living in Chicago for the rest of your life doesn't sound bad to you. DC and NY will be tough to crack with a UIUC degree, but it's respected in Chicago.

[im_blue]

The correct answer is Illinois. Places the best in Chicago, at the lowest cost. Although with a 3.7/168 you'll probably get Cornell, too.

[edgarderby]

The correct answer is Illinois. Places the best in Chicago, at the lowest cost. Although with a 3.7/168 you'll probably get Cornell, too.

Yeah, if you're on law review or have previous personal connections to hiring partners. Going to Illinois with those numbers is insane.

[ndirish2010]

The correct answer is Illinois. Places the best in Chicago, at the lowest cost. Although with a 3.7/168 you'll probably get Cornell, too.

Yeah, if you're on law review or have previous personal connections to hiring partners. Going to Illinois with those numbers is insane.

Well, if I don't get Cornell or another T14, what is a better option? The problem with my numbers is that they are very borderline, not good enough to get most of the T14 but then people say I shouldn't be settling for some of these T30s...

[cubswin]

The correct answer is Illinois. Places the best in Chicago, at the lowest cost. Although with a 3.7/168 you'll probably get Cornell, too.

Yeah, if you're on law review or have previous personal connections to hiring partners. Going to Illinois with those numbers is insane.

Well, if I don't get Cornell or another T14, what is a better option? The problem with my numbers is that they are very borderline, not good enough to get most of the T14 but then people say I shouldn't be settling for some of these T30s...

You're under the GPA 75th and slightly over their LSAT 75th. Not insane, just a good candidate for some $$$. Perhaps he is less debt-averse than you. Personally, I'd attend UIUC for 10k a year over Cornell for 50k a year. In the Chicago market, I don't think Cornell will be worth the extra debt.

[LSATfromNC]

You have some good options. I think W8L and W&M are peer schools in the same market, since W&L is much cheaper in your situation I would take their offer over W&M.

As for Illinois, GW, and Fordham in your Chicago, DC or NYC requirement I would probably take the cheapest once again. Each one only offers an advantage over the other in their respective home market, so with that being equal I would take Illinois.

Oh, if you get into Cornell I will hate and despise you out of jealousy.

OS, that picture is funny, sorry

[ndirish2010]

You have some good options. I think W8L and W&M are peer schools in the same market, since W&L is much cheaper in your situation I would take their offer over W&M.

As for Illinois, GW, and Fordham in your Chicago, DC or NYC requirement I would probably take the cheapest once again. Each one only offers an advantage over the other in their respective home market, so with that being equal I would take Illinois.

Oh, if you get into Cornell I will hate and despise you out of jealousy.

OS, that picture is funny, sorry

That makes sense. Is it true (or close) that Illinois --> Chicago = Fordham --> NYC = GW --> DC? In that case, Illinois seems like a no brainer between those three unless I can get some money out of GW or Fordham (seems unlikely, but has anyone had any success negotiating with either school.)

And is Illinois in Chicago >>> W&L in DC? It does look like from the 2005 employment graphs that Illinois places a significantly higher percentage into the NLJ 250 firms than W&L, would the difference hold true ITE, though not the high percentages?

[im_blue]

You have some good options. I think W8L and W&M are peer schools in the same market, since W&L is much cheaper in your situation I would take their offer over W&M.

As for Illinois, GW, and Fordham in your Chicago, DC or NYC requirement I would probably take the cheapest once again. Each one only offers an advantage over the other in their respective home market, so with that being equal I would take Illinois.

Oh, if you get into Cornell I will hate and despise you out of jealousy.

OS, that picture is funny, sorry

That makes sense. Is it true (or close) that Illinois --> Chicago = Fordham --> NYC = GW --> DC? In that case, Illinois seems like a no brainer between those three unless I can get some money out of GW or Fordham (seems unlikely, but has anyone had any success negotiating with either school.)

And is Illinois in Chicago >>> W&L in DC? It does look like from the 2005 employment graphs that Illinois places a significantly higher percentage into the NLJ 250 firms than W&L, would the difference hold true ITE, though not the high percentages?

Right, basically Illinois, Fordham, and GWU are roughly equal schools, as the best non-T14 schools in their home markets. So I would either minimize debt and choose the cheapest of these options (Illinois), or go for Cornell at sticker.

[edgarderby]

You have some good options. I think W8L and W&M are peer schools in the same market, since W&L is much cheaper in your situation I would take their offer over W&M.

As for Illinois, GW, and Fordham in your Chicago, DC or NYC requirement I would probably take the cheapest once again. Each one only offers an advantage over the other in their respective home market, so with that being equal I would take Illinois.

Oh, if you get into Cornell I will hate and despise you out of jealousy.

OS, that picture is funny, sorry

That makes sense. Is it true (or close) that Illinois --> Chicago = Fordham --> NYC = GW --> DC? In that case, Illinois seems like a no brainer between those three unless I can get some money out of GW or Fordham (seems unlikely, but has anyone had any success negotiating with either school.)

And is Illinois in Chicago >>> W&L in DC? It does look like from the 2005 employment graphs that Illinois places a significantly higher percentage into the NLJ 250 firms than W&L, would the difference hold true ITE, though not the high percentages?

Right, basically Illinois, Fordham, and GWU are roughly equal schools, as the best non-T14 schools in their home markets. So I would either minimize debt and choose the cheapest of these options (Illinois), or go for Cornell at sticker.

No way in hell Illinois beats Notre Dame, not even in this economy. Not unless there is some catholic holocaust some day, where all catholic legal practitioners are exiled to Rome.

And W&L is horribly overrated, unless something has happened between them offering all of us on TLS with a 166 full tuition to attend after we withdrew and the meltdown of the legal system.

Those 2005 graphs are a joke, you people need to stop using them. They weren't even relevant when I was applying.

And ND is pretty quick to throw out cash. I got a ton of money off the waitlist after I made it clear I would come at full price.

[ndirish2010]

So how much do you think it would take to make ND>U of I? I also have a preference to possibly stay at ND if I can (might be worth a few extra $ to me) as I've liked it here as an undergrad and also have a gf here that's a junior and lives in South Bend. In the long run these are small concerns, but it would make me take ND ceteris paribus or even if things weighed slightly against them.

[edgarderby]

So how much do you think it would take to make ND>U of I? I also have a preference to possibly stay at ND if I can (might be worth a few extra $ to me) as I've liked it here as an undergrad and also have a gf here that's a junior and lives in South Bend. In the long run these are small concerns, but it would make me take ND ceteris paribus or even if things weighed slightly against them.

Illinois is so damned overpriced as well. IIRC, it didn't take nearly as much money from ND to even it out, and they pretty much matched everyone else. Illinois's placement stats are perhaps the most overrated besides IU, likely for the same reason that they are overvalued by people that swear by USNWR. ND is respected more in Chicago, and most importantly, everywhere else which is big during this recession. I've griped about us being undervalued in the recession, but that's in comparison to local schools in my target cities where I could have gone for free, making the equation hard to beat.

There are tons of ND undergrads that go on to the law school, as you probably know, and the reason is that ND is a damn good school to stay at. Fuck this snow lately, but besides that, I like it here. (and the job market is going to hurt pretty much everywhere equally, so I don't count that against ND but law school generally).

If you want to talk about anything else you can PM or facebook me. Good luck!

BTW, is the leprechaun still posting on here? Never heard if he committed or not, I know he was a soft verbal commit before.

[ndirish2010]

I didn't know he was ever on here, that's interesting, haha if you find out let me know. I probably will PM you once my ND decision comes in...

[ndirish2010]

I'm in at ND with $18K/yr! ND with $18K> UIUC with $30K?

[sanpiero]

I'm in at ND with $18K/yr! ND with $18K> UIUC with $30K?

Not in my mind. I guess it depends on whether you want Chicago or elsewhere and how you value each school's intangible aspects (e.g. athletics, surrounding area, lay prestige, etc.).