UVA v. NYU Forum

[democrattotheend]

So far, I have only heard back from two schools, but already I have a big dilemma.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that I get rejected everywhere else I applied, so these are my two choices.

Here are some factors to consider:
1. I am interested in public interest and am very debt averse, but I am not great at living super frugally. So I am concerned about the cost of living in New York. I am not interested in commuting from Brooklyn, and I would probably eat out more than I should.

Also, I am a Virginia resident, so even if I get no scholarship money from UVA, it's still about $8000 cheaper per year. I know that NYU has a better LRAP program, but in the end, I would probably end up borrowing twice as much to attend NYU.

2. I am interested in clerking, and might be interested in DOJ honors or the Department of Labor. I most likely want to return to DC after law school.

3. I have lived in the Northeast my entire life, and I am a liberal Democrat. I also talk really fast. So I am a little bit worried that UVA might be a culture clash.

Basically, I know that NYU is the better fit of the two schools, but in the end, I am not sure if it's worth borrowing twice as much. Right now, my head says UVA, and my heart says NYU.

Given my goals, do you think it's worth the extra money to go to NYU, or is UVA a better choice because of the lower tuition and lower cost of living? If UVA gave me some scholarship money, would that change the equation, assuming I had to pay sticker at NYU?

I could really use some feedback here...

[scribelaw]

Look into the LRAP differences between these two schools. They are huge.

Say you get a PI job paying $55k out of law school (an optimistic assumption, I'd say).

At NYU, your monthly loan payments with LRAP would be $217.

At Virginia, your monthly loan payments with LRAP would be $833.

Here's a really good breakdown of top LRAP programs:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 15&t=62094

If you are sure you want to do PI or government work, Virginia isn't really an affordable option unless you have a full ride or close to it.

[democrattotheend]

Look into the LRAP differences between these two schools. They are huge.

Say you get a PI job paying $55k out of law school (an optimistic assumption, I'd say).

At NYU, your monthly loan payments with LRAP would be $217.

At Virginia, your monthly loan payments with LRAP would be $833.

Here's a really good breakdown of top LRAP programs:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 15&t=62094

If you are sure you want to do PI or government work, Virginia isn't really an affordable option unless you have a full ride or close to it.

True, but you are assuming that I would borrow the same amount for both schools. At UVA, my savings would probably cover tuition and living expenses for a year, and I would have to borrow a lot less because of the lower tuition and much lower cost of living. Even with no scholarship money, I could probably keep the debt under $100,000 at UVA. at NYU, my savings would barely cover the cost of living for one year, and I could end up borrowing close to $200,000. So even if NYU's LRAP program is a lot more generous, I'd be paying off a lot more money. So wouldn't that affect the monthly loan payment?

[scribelaw]

Look into the LRAP differences between these two schools. They are huge.

Say you get a PI job paying $55k out of law school (an optimistic assumption, I'd say).

At NYU, your monthly loan payments with LRAP would be $217.

At Virginia, your monthly loan payments with LRAP would be $833.

Here's a really good breakdown of top LRAP programs:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 15&t=62094

If you are sure you want to do PI or government work, Virginia isn't really an affordable option unless you have a full ride or close to it.

True, but you are assuming that I would borrow the same amount for both schools. At UVA, my savings would probably cover tuition and living expenses for a year, and I would have to borrow a lot less because of the lower tuition and much lower cost of living. Even with no scholarship money, I could probably keep the debt under $100,000 at UVA. at NYU, my savings would barely cover the cost of living for one year, and I could end up borrowing close to $200,000. So even if NYU's LRAP program is a lot more generous, I'd be paying off a lot more money. So wouldn't that affect the monthly loan payment?

No.

Even if you borrow, say, $90k at UVA and $175k at NYU, the calculations above would hold true. Now if you wanted to practice in the private sector or BigLaw in DC, I would pick Virginia at half the loans. But if you're using the LRAP program, NYU is the far superior choice, even if you have to borrow more. Run the numbers yourself at different potential salaries. The answer is the same.

[spinsta]

I chose NYU over UVA last year. Couldn't be happier - I have a V100 Biglaw firm job lined up here in NYC for my 1L summer and I am just somewhere around the median of my class at NYU. The T5 vs. T14 dynamic actually matters more than you think - I have a good friend at UVA in the top-30% of the class and he has had 0 success finding a firm job this summer (except for unpaid internships and pro bono work). He has better stats than I in every regard (higher LSAT, better grades, higher undergrad GPA, etc.) I, on the other hand, have had multiple offers here in NYC.

Also, the hiring partner at a V10 firm told me they only accept applications from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU and Columbia. They won't even look at applications below those 5. I know you aren't as interested in Biglaw, but the same principles apply to prestigious public interest work (I turned down an offer to work with a federal judge and the US Attorney's Office).

For me, turning down the UVA scholarship for NYU was a great decision and I don't regret it in the least.

Good luck deciding.

[09042014]

Look into the LRAP differences between these two schools. They are huge.

Say you get a PI job paying $55k out of law school (an optimistic assumption, I'd say).

At NYU, your monthly loan payments with LRAP would be $217.

At Virginia, your monthly loan payments with LRAP would be $833.

Here's a really good breakdown of top LRAP programs:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 15&t=62094

If you are sure you want to do PI or government work, Virginia isn't really an affordable option unless you have a full ride or close to it.

True, but you are assuming that I would borrow the same amount for both schools. At UVA, my savings would probably cover tuition and living expenses for a year, and I would have to borrow a lot less because of the lower tuition and much lower cost of living. Even with no scholarship money, I could probably keep the debt under $100,000 at UVA. at NYU, my savings would barely cover the cost of living for one year, and I could end up borrowing close to $200,000. So even if NYU's LRAP program is a lot more generous, I'd be paying off a lot more money. So wouldn't that affect the monthly loan payment?

No.

Even if you borrow, say, $90k at UVA and $175k at NYU, the calculations above would hold true. Now if you wanted to practice in the private sector or BigLaw in DC, I would pick Virginia at half the loans. But if you're using the LRAP program, NYU is the far superior choice, even if you have to borrow more. Run the numbers yourself at different potential salaries. The answer is the same.

/thread

[showNprove]

.

[sfdreaming09]

I chose NYU over UVA last year. Couldn't be happier - I have a V100 Biglaw firm job lined up here in NYC for my 1L summer and I am just somewhere around the median of my class at NYU. The T5 vs. T14 dynamic actually matters more than you think - I have a good friend at UVA in the top-30% of the class and he has had 0 success finding a firm job this summer (except for unpaid internships and pro bono work). He has better stats than I in every regard (higher LSAT, better grades, higher undergrad GPA, etc.) I, on the other hand, have had multiple offers here in NYC.

Also, the hiring partner at a V10 firm told me they only accept applications from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU and Columbia. They won't even look at applications below those 5. I know you aren't as interested in Biglaw, but the same principles apply to prestigious public interest work (I turned down an offer to work with a federal judge and the US Attorney's Office).

For me, turning down the UVA scholarship for NYU was a great decision and I don't regret it in the least.

Good luck deciding.

Great info. But quick question: when we're applying for 1L/2L summer jobs, do we really still have to list our LSAT scores on our resumes? Is this standard practice or just something that you personally decided to do?

[thatguyyouknow]

I have a good friend at UVA in the top-30% of the class and he has had 0 success finding a firm job this summer (except for unpaid internships and pro bono work).

just out of curiosity, where was your friend looking? NYC, DC, etc.

[scribelaw]

Also, the hiring partner at a V10 firm told me they only accept applications from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU and Columbia. They won't even look at applications below those 5. I know you aren't as interested in Biglaw, but the same principles apply to prestigious public interest work (I turned down an offer to work with a federal judge and the US Attorney's Office).

In Virginia's defense, it is represented in more large firms than any school in the country. By referencing the hiring policies of one firm, you're being entirely misleading. After all, to suggest that NYU would bring more opportunities than Chicago is pretty ridiculous.

As his circumstances are right now, if OP is committed to PI work, then he should take NYU. However, if he gets a scholarship, after taking into account UVA's new LRAP program coming out and the school's stronger ties to the city he wants to be in (DC), I think Virginia would be a no brainer. Even if NYU's LRAP program is better, $200k in debt and its limited reach outside of NYC (relative to its presence in NYC) is not worth passing up potential $60k or less in debt from UVA. Unless you want a job in NYC, NYU has no noticeable advantage over UVA. OP does not want to be in NYC.

And OP, you're a Virginia resident, but you're worried that moving to a college town in Virginia would be a culture clash for a liberal? Far from it.

Any details on Virginia's new LRAP?

[Veyron]

I said NYU because I hate giving bad advice but...

go to UVA, I don't want to deal with any more stinkin' liberals at NYU next year than I have to.

[showNprove]

Any details on Virginia's new LRAP?

No details yet. Last I heard is that they are putting the finishing touches on it and plan to roll it out soon.

Most important point for OP: the LRAP comparisons in this thread will be useless to him. While I doubt UVA's will match NYU's, I expect the gap to be cut dramatically. Keeping in mind that plans change in law school, taking $140k debt or more at NYU for someone who has no particular interest in NYC is a risky proposition.

If you get a scholarship, go Virginia. If not, stay 100% committed to PI and go to NYU.

[spinsta]

Also, the hiring partner at a V10 firm told me they only accept applications from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU and Columbia. They won't even look at applications below those 5. I know you aren't as interested in Biglaw, but the same principles apply to prestigious public interest work (I turned down an offer to work with a federal judge and the US Attorney's Office).

In Virginia's defense, it is represented in more large firms than any school in the country. By referencing the hiring policies of one firm, you're being entirely misleading. After all, to suggest that NYU would bring more opportunities than Chicago is pretty ridiculous.

As his circumstances are right now, if OP is committed to PI work, then he should take NYU. However, if he gets a scholarship, after taking into account UVA's new LRAP program coming out and the school's stronger ties to the city he wants to be in (DC), I think Virginia would be a no brainer. Even if NYU's LRAP program is better, $200k in debt and its limited reach outside of NYC (relative to its presence in NYC) is not worth passing up potential $60k or less in debt from UVA. Unless you want a job in NYC, NYU has no noticeable advantage over UVA. OP does not want to be in NYC.

And OP, you're a Virginia resident, but you're worried that moving to a college town in Virginia would be a culture clash for a liberal? Far from it.

Oh, I understand that this is an entirely anecdotal statement. I'm just saying that I feel that going to NYU has given me a leg-up, at least in NYC Biglaw, over UVA or even Chicago. My friend at UVA has been completely frustrated in finding any decent firm job in any market (NY, DC, etc.). I, on the other hand, have had multiple offers. And the only difference between the two of us are where we go to school. If anything, he has better stats all-around.

UVA is a great school - I'm just sharing my experience, having turned down a big scholly at UVA for nothing at NYU. I would make the same choice again in a heartbeat.

[LSlobbyist]

OP, I'm in a similar position. Right now, among the schools that I've been accepted to, NYU and UVA (w/ Berkeley a close third) are my favorites, and I'm planning to work in DC after graduation. I have a full scholarship from UVA and I'm awaiting word from NYU on what they may offer in terms of merit aid.

Love UVA, but despite the popularity that it enjoys on this board, I am increasingly concerned about the portability of the degree if I should decide to shift career paths coming out of law school. At the moment, prestige does not carry too much weight in my law school decision-making process (for example, unless Columbia and/or Chicago blows me away during their ASWs, I likely will not be attending either school), but tales like spinsta's are beginning to make me rethink how much I should weigh prestige as a variable.

[facetious]

I chose NYU over UVA last year. Couldn't be happier - I have a V100 Biglaw firm job lined up here in NYC for my 1L summer and I am just somewhere around the median of my class at NYU. The T5 vs. T14 dynamic actually matters more than you think - I have a good friend at UVA in the top-30% of the class and he has had 0 success finding a firm job this summer (except for unpaid internships and pro bono work). He has better stats than I in every regard (higher LSAT, better grades, higher undergrad GPA, etc.) I, on the other hand, have had multiple offers here in NYC.

Also, the hiring partner at a V10 firm told me they only accept applications from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU and Columbia. They won't even look at applications below those 5. I know you aren't as interested in Biglaw, but the same principles apply to prestigious public interest work (I turned down an offer to work with a federal judge and the US Attorney's Office).

For me, turning down the UVA scholarship for NYU was a great decision and I don't regret it in the least.

Good luck deciding.

while i have nothing to add to this thread, as a NYU 0L, i can't tell you how happy this makes me

[reasonable_man]

May the best school win... Though, when it comes down to it, personally, I think your battle should end the same way the above pictured battle ended...

[spinsta]

I chose NYU over UVA last year. Couldn't be happier - I have a V100 Biglaw firm job lined up here in NYC for my 1L summer and I am just somewhere around the median of my class at NYU. The T5 vs. T14 dynamic actually matters more than you think - I have a good friend at UVA in the top-30% of the class and he has had 0 success finding a firm job this summer (except for unpaid internships and pro bono work). He has better stats than I in every regard (higher LSAT, better grades, higher undergrad GPA, etc.) I, on the other hand, have had multiple offers here in NYC.

Also, the hiring partner at a V10 firm told me they only accept applications from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU and Columbia. They won't even look at applications below those 5. I know you aren't as interested in Biglaw, but the same principles apply to prestigious public interest work (I turned down an offer to work with a federal judge and the US Attorney's Office).

For me, turning down the UVA scholarship for NYU was a great decision and I don't regret it in the least.

Good luck deciding.

Great info. But quick question: when we're applying for 1L/2L summer jobs, do we really still have to list our LSAT scores on our resumes? Is this standard practice or just something that you personally decided to do?

I actually did not list mine on my resume - since the NYU range is 169-173 and I am not URM, I figured they would assume that I was in that range, which I am. I think he did list his, because he scored about UVA's range (167-171, right?) and wanted employers to see that. In general, you do not list your LSAT score on your resume.

[thisguy456]

Isn't LRAP a moot point if the OP wants to get a federal job (DOJ, Labor)? After a few years and a few raises wouldn't his/her salary be over the limit?

[showNprove]

Oh, I understand that this is an entirely anecdotal statement. I'm just saying that I feel that going to NYU has given me a leg-up, at least in NYC Biglaw, over UVA or even Chicago. My friend at UVA has been completely frustrated in finding any decent firm job in any market (NY, DC, etc.). I, on the other hand, have had multiple offers. And the only difference between the two of us are where we go to school. If anything, he has better stats all-around.

UVA is a great school - I'm just sharing my experience, having turned down a big scholly at UVA for nothing at NYU. I would make the same choice again in a heartbeat.

No, I get that. NYU's location and connections in NYC is definitely helping the school in ways that Virginia, Michigan, Berkeley, and even Penn cannot get. ITE, NYU definitely has better prospects, generally. Enough to pass up a scholarship at Virginia with OP's career and geographical aspirations? Probably not, IMO.



Also, on an unrelated note, Virginia rocks NYU in clerkship placement. Again, it's not enough to pass up NYU's LRAP without a scholarship because of your interest in PI, but it's just one more reason why UVA+scholarship would be the better choice in your situation.

[RVP11]

Here are some factors to consider:
1. I am interested in public interest and am very debt averse, but I am not great at living super frugally. So I am concerned about the cost of living in New York. I am not interested in commuting from Brooklyn, and I would probably eat out more than I should.

Also, I am a Virginia resident, so even if I get no scholarship money from UVA, it's still about $8000 cheaper per year. I know that NYU has a better LRAP program, but in the end, I would probably end up borrowing twice as much to attend NYU.

2. I am interested in clerking, and might be interested in DOJ honors or the Department of Labor. I most likely want to return to DC after law school.

3. I have lived in the Northeast my entire life, and I am a liberal Democrat. I also talk really fast. So I am a little bit worried that UVA might be a culture clash.

Basically, I know that NYU is the better fit of the two schools, but in the end, I am not sure if it's worth borrowing twice as much. Right now, my head says UVA, and my heart says NYU.

Given my goals, do you think it's worth the extra money to go to NYU, or is UVA a better choice because of the lower tuition and lower cost of living? If UVA gave me some scholarship money, would that change the equation, assuming I had to pay sticker at NYU?

I could really use some feedback here...

UVA will cost you considerably less (even before considering any scholarship $$$) and give you roughly equal chances at DOJ and high level clerkships.

IDK if you're justified in expecting some kind of culture clash. I'd estimate 25% of the school is from NY/NJ/CT/PA, and 35% of the class is from northern Virginia. Maybe 20% of the class is from the South/Texas. Culturally, I'd say the law school is more northeastern than southern.

Now if it's the big city lifestyle you're looking for, you're probably going to struggle to find that in Charlottesville.

[sfdreaming09]

NYU.

[RVP11]

I chose NYU over UVA last year. Couldn't be happier - I have a V100 Biglaw firm job lined up here in NYC for my 1L summer and I am just somewhere around the median of my class at NYU. The T5 vs. T14 dynamic actually matters more than you think - I have a good friend at UVA in the top-30% of the class and he has had 0 success finding a firm job this summer (except for unpaid internships and pro bono work). He has better stats than I in every regard (higher LSAT, better grades, higher undergrad GPA, etc.) I, on the other hand, have had multiple offers here in NYC.

Also, the hiring partner at a V10 firm told me they only accept applications from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU and Columbia. They won't even look at applications below those 5. I know you aren't as interested in Biglaw, but the same principles apply to prestigious public interest work (I turned down an offer to work with a federal judge and the US Attorney's Office).

For me, turning down the UVA scholarship for NYU was a great decision and I don't regret it in the least.

Good luck deciding.

That hiring partner must have been jerking your chain. Even Wachtell is going to consider someone who's #1 in their class at UVA or is just coming off a SCOTUS clerkship. Between all the Law Review people in 2011, I'm sure every V10 firm interviewed at least one person from UVA.

[daesonesb]

NYU.

[RVP11]

What happened to TLS? I think this is the first time I've seen a thread where people recommend NYU over UVA to someone who wants something other than NYC BigLaw.

[daesonesb]

i just really like new york city .